Which teachings are essential? Which are supportive?

[8thdaypriest]

This subject came up in another thread.  I didn't want to sidetrack that thread, so I'm starting another one.

 Is it essential, that a person believe in "soul sleep" - the unconscious sleep of death - in order to be saved?

Is it essential a person believe the wicked will be annihilated in the "lake of fire"?

Is it essential a person believe he must keep the commandments?  How many commandments?  Which commandments? 

Is it essential a person understand what Paul wrote on the Law? 

Is it essential a person understand the Feasts of the Lord, and their prophetic meaning?

The answer to all the above - in my opinion - is No. 

I think all the above are supportive - that is - they help to bring a person closer to HIM, through understanding His mercy, His wisdom, His plan, His love.  

What beliefs are ESSENTIAL for salvation?  Can one be "saved" as a Buddhist, a Muslim ?

I personally think it essential, that a person believe that God created all that is - that HE is literally our Creator. 

[8thdaypriest]

I believe it essential that one believe in the virgin birth of Christ,  that He was the Son of God, His actual physical death by crucifixion,  that He was raised to life, that He intercedes for the sinner,  that we may come to "the Father" in His name. 

[8thdaypriest]

I believe it essential to understand that God loves us - that the Cross was God's message of that love. 

I believe it essential to understand that one needs saving. 

I believe it essential to understand that our Creator has a law, and we have sinned against that Law.  And that's why the world is in a mess.  To sin against God's law, is to sin against Him.  Why even think you need saving, if there is no law or standard? 

I believe it essential to understand that one cannot simply repeat prayers for forgiveness, without any intent or effort, to repent of known sins - like some gangster with a priest on retainer. 

[8thdaypriest]

Assuming God created everything, there are TWO questions about God.

#1 - Is God love?   #2 - Do created beings have freedom to reject God?

Those TWO questions cover everything. 

God sending His Son - says that He "loves" us.   God "forgiving" us, says that He "loves" us. 

re #2:  If death is the result of rejecting God, then do we really have the freedom to reject God.  We cannot reject Him, and go on living.  We cannot reject Him - without that punishment.  So where's the freedom?

[8thdaypriest]

8 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

OK, so what IF I believed in the birth of Christ, but didnt care about "the virgin birth part? What does that have to do with "salvation;" and what is the definition of "salvation" we are working with here?

TWO QUESTIONS

1.  We "saved from" eternal irreversible death - the end of our existence.  If one is "saved" then he does not "perish".  He lives forever. 

2.  If Jesus was simply an ordinary man, conceived in the usual way - then He was not the actual Son of God.  Then God did not send and give "His only begotten Son" - so those who believe this, (and see His love for us) - may "not perish". 

[8thdaypriest]

4 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

THAT might NOT be so "essential" for some to "believe?"  There are some (I being one of them at some points in my life) where things are just going so awol and the suffering is so immense, that it physically, spiritually, and emotionally crushes us. And sometimes people do NOT believe that God loves them. And THE GOOD NEWS is that this does not bother Jesus in the least. For it was through the caring hands of one particular nurse that I did come to KNOW that Jesus loves even me. There was NO doctrine involved. There was not "teaching" or brain washing or other forms of convincing. I remember many nights I would be lying in bed with bandages literally from head to toe from severe burns and donor sites for massive skin grafts, and I still have some doubts some days; but back then, all I KNEW for sure was when Lillian would come in after her shift (3-11) and say to me as she took my hand "David; I am going to stay with you now until you are not afraid." And I would be asleep in 15 minutes, totally at peace.

Back then, I knew nothing of doctrine. Nothing of scripture. All I knew was how that nurse treated me. So some twenty years later, I had occassion to go to an Adventist Church, and (Ill share that story later) I was never so shocked in all my life when I walked into the sanctuary of the little church in Paris. Guess who was standing at the door greeting visitors?  Yes, it was Lillian! But what shocked me even more, was that many of the people that I met that day had the very same "qualities of goodness and mercy" that I had remembered in that nurse from twenty years ago! They were all just like her! THATS the "doctrine" that I would say is important.

Always a wonderful story Wanderer. 

You "saw" the love of God - in Lillian.  You thought, "If that's the God IN her, then HE must be love."   Hence the song, "Does the world see Jesus in you".  

I had a house helper, few years back - Hilda.  I never preached at her, or taught her much of anything ABOUT God or doctrine.  Nothing.  She had worked for me some two years, when she asked me to teach her more about God.  In very poor English, she said that she "felt love and peace" when she entered our house.   Said she had never felt anything like that before.  Her heart, she said, was "at peace" in our house - when everything else in her life was chaos. 

Yes - I believe that was the presence of Christ, drawing her heart.  I'm just saying that no doctrine drew her.  It was the feeling of love and peace.  This initial feeling, made her want to know more. 

"the goodness (love) of God leads you to repentance?" (Rom 2:4 NKJ)

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

If death is the result of rejecting God, then do we really have the freedom to reject God.  We cannot reject Him, and go on living.  We cannot reject Him - without that punishment.  So where's the freedom?

I would prefer not to call it punishment, but consequences.  We have the freedom to do all things including jumping off a building, dying from a drug overdose as a junkie, all sorts of things that have devastating consequences.  Scripture says that choosing to not believe that Jesus is who He says He is and did what He said He did has devastating consequences - eternal death.

I believe that faith (dependence )on Jesus is an essential for salvation.  I also believe that it should be an informed deliberate choice.  I can't say it's necessary for salvation (falls into "good to know" category) that folks that never had the opportunity or mental capacity to make that choice will have an opportunity in the future.

[Gregory Matthews]

There is only one issue that is important for our salvation.  That issues is:  To accept whatever the Holy Spirit convicts us of being truth. 

[pierrepaul]

11 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There is only one issue that is important for our salvation.  That issues is:  To accept whatever the Holy Spirit convicts us of being truth. 

Generally I would agree. However although as a fallible man I am not competent to judge the heart, I once met 2 men whom I believe to be sincere, one of who believes that the Holy Spirit convicted him of the truth of "A"; another who believes that the Holy Spirit convicted him "A" is error. One or both of these men are mistaken. They cannot both be right.

[Gregory Matthews]

Only God knows what the Holy Spirit has convicted another person.

 

[Lone Ranger]

13 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I would prefer not to call it punishment, but consequences. 

Well...Except that Scripture calls it punishment. And if the end result of sin is death, why don't people just die and that's the end of it, if we truly have free will to accept or reject God. Why must one suffer punishment in Hell for "rejecting" God?

If you have free will, but are punished for making the wrong choice......That's NOT free will, IMO.

Death is the consequence of sin. Hell is punishment for rejecting God. Which you did because...HE gave you free will...WAIT! I thought you gave us free will??

[JoeMo]

Is knowing the prophecies concerning the end times necessary for salvation?  I don't know if it's necessary, but I would definitely put it high on the list of "good to know" information.  People who don't study this because it's too weird or too scary are gonna be quite surprised and dismayed - maybe even to the point of giving up their faith because they have been caught completely unaware because of their ignorance.  We who have studied at least know (in general) what to expect and how to respond.  I'm not saying those of us who have studied are any better off - some of us will likely lose our faith during that time as well.  People who are unaware may still be saved; but their fear of the unknown could make the end times much harder on them.

For example, in many places people are being encouraged to get "chipped" to facilitate a cashless society and "hack-proof" identification.  Could these chips be the vehicle for believers to have their purchasing and selling abilities cut off by the push of a button somewhere in cyberspace?  I am suspicious because I have studied end-time prophecies.

[JoeMo]

22 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I had one of those "The Holy Spirit Told mes" too a few days ago, and it definitely turned out to NOT be true.

Just about every time I have a HS moment, I have to wonder if it's the HS or my overactive imagination.

 

1 hour ago, Lone Ranger said:

If you have free will, but are punished for making the wrong choice

There is a difference between being "punished" for rebelling against God and making a wrong choice.  We have limited (if any) information on the future consequences of our choices.  Sometimes, even though our heart is right, we will make a bad choice; and suffer "consequences" for that choice.

For example, David was the apple of God's eye; and is described as such after his death.  Yet, he definitely made a poor choice when He took in Bathseba and had her husband killed.  He and his family suffered the consequences for the rest of his life.  Another example is Abraham.  He was God's chosen father of an entire nation to whom God gave the most important piece of real estate on the planet. He made the wrong choice twice about Sarah being His sister, bringing disaster of two neighboring kings.  Furthermore, he screwed up getting Hagar pregnant and giving birth to Ishmael - the father of Israel's enemies for the past 3,000 years.  Yet, he is declared righteous for his faith.

I was a risk manager for many years.  One of the most dangerous risks I had to assess was the "risk of unintended consequences".  You don't know what you don't know; only God knows it all; and He is willing to overlook and sometimes correct our wrong choices when we bring them to Him in humility and ask for His help.

[JoeMo]

4 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

If we dont know these very basics of prophecy, it could be quite hazardous,

That's exactly my point.

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There is only one issue that is important for our salvation.  That issues is:  To accept whatever the Holy Spirit convicts us of being truth. 

So the LORD may convict a Pharisee in the land of Judah, that this man called Jesus really IS "the Christ" - and his acceptance or rejection of that conviction would be "salvational" - for Him. 

That assumes a whopping lot of prior knowledge in things of God.  Did the Pharisee also have to accept all the prior knowledge also? 

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I would prefer not to call it punishment, but consequences. 

Do you think that being "thrown" into the "lake of fire" after the final judgment, is a "consequence" ?   Doesn't sound like a consequence.  Sounds like an execution.

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There is only one issue that is important for our salvation.  That issues is:  To accept whatever the Holy Spirit convicts us of being truth. 

You are I differ, Gregory, on some doctrines.   How can the same Spirit convict you of one "truth" and me of another?  

[8thdaypriest]

2 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I dont get where you derive "a lot of prior knowledge" from?? IF The Spirit convicts us of one small iota, it is the same accounting as one who knows the Bible inside and out. God does not favor one who has more knowledge than the other? He only holds us responsible for what we DO know.

To recognize Jesus as "the Messiah", the Pharisee would need to understand "the Messiah" prophecies.   He would need to be expecting that figure.  To be expecting that prophecy to be fulfilled, the Pharisee would have to believe that Yahweh led Israel through the wilderness, etc. etc.  I'm just saying the "conviction" was in a cultural context. 

[8thdaypriest]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

1/ Rev_19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

2/ Rev_20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

3/ Rev_20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

4/ Rev_20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

5/ Rev_21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Above are all of the texts which mention "lake of fire."  I found the last one to be of interest inthat it says "shall have THEIR PART" in the lake of fire.

Is this understanding/teaching ESSENTIAL to salvation?  Do men need to understand that death is the end, IF they do not believe in Jesus Christ, and obey Him?

[8thdaypriest]

7 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You are I differ, Gregory, on some doctrines.   How can the same Spirit convict you of one "truth" and me of another?  

Will I be "saved" because I obeyed my conviction - even if the conviction I experience, is different from the one you experience?

[Gregory Matthews]

Sorry.  It does not assume a lot of prior knowledge..  it only assumes that the HS will give the person whatever is needed for conviction.

 

[8thdaypriest]

13 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Will I be "saved" because I obeyed my conviction - even if the conviction I experience, is different from the one you experience?

Saul said he was forgiven "because I acted in ignorance".   If Saul "was forgiven" then would he not have been "saved to eternal life" if he had died before His first missionary journey.

[8thdaypriest]

The doctrine of eternal conscious torment in a place called Hell, has actually caused thousands to reject any belief in the existence of God. 

If belief in the existence of God is ESSENTIAL, then is it not also essential to understand that the end for those who reject Christ, is simply death - not eternal torment?

Which goes back to my point that one must understand that God is love (which means merciful too). 

I personally believe that explaining the annihilation of those hardened in rebellion is VERY IMPORTANT to help folks believe - in God.

[8thdaypriest]

Is it ESSENTIAL to believe that "the Bible" was inspired of God - that it is HIS message to us, and is a record of HIS dealings with human beings?

Is it ESSENTIAL to believe that "the Bible" we have today (translated from ancient manuscripts) is perfect? 

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Do you think that being "thrown" into the "lake of fire" after the final judgment, is a "consequence" ?   Doesn't sound like a consequence.  Sounds like an execution.

Most certainly.  But what we suffer in the present age is consequences.  Punishment doesn't come before a judgement.