Which teachings are essential? Which are supportive?

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Is it ESSENTIAL to believe that "the Bible" was inspired of God - that it is HIS message to us, and is a record of HIS dealings with human beings?

Is it ESSENTIAL to believe that "the Bible" we have today (translated from ancient manuscripts) is perfect? 

IMHO, yes to question #1; no to #2.  That is not a contradiction.  There are many discrepancies between translations, and even discrepancies in the ancient manuscripts (e.g., between the Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate)  But I haven't seen any discrepancies that contradict the essential points of doctrine.

[Lone Ranger]

On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 2:01 PM, The Wanderer said:

into the sanctuary of the little church in Paris. 

HEY wait!

Is this Paris , France? Or Paris, Ontario?

[Lone Ranger]

I know it well. Lived at the end of Railway Lane for a few years.

[Lone Ranger]

Yea I was just a little shaver then. Was there 2 years in the mid 60's.

 

[JoeMo]

11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

How long is forever and ever once the millennium is over and we enter into eternity?

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel asked in the quote below:

First of all, The Holy Spirit is responsible for teaching us (convicting us) of what God wants us to know, or of what is  essential for our salvation and more.   (John 16:5-16)  The HS may use you and I in that process.  But, the HS remains in charge and is responsible. 

I think that we could all agree that the HS does not dump the entire load of what God has to teach us on us at once.  As  humans we could not deal with that.  I think that we could agree that our human life is a life of continued learning and of growth.  Over the years since I graduated from college, I have gained additional knowledge about God.  In actual fact, some of my understandings have changed and I am not exactly now where I was when I graduated from college.   In actual fact, God probably has more to teach me than I now know.

I will suggest that God does not follow a strict order in teaching people.   God does not require that people understand A before they are taught B, and understand B before they are taught C.  It may be that you are taught B before you are taught A and I am taught C before I am taught either A or B.  The bottom line is that God is in charge of my salvation and the HS is searching me what God wants me to know in an order that God knows is best for me and is best likely to effect my salvation.  

From this perspective, if the HS has not convicted you of B, but has convicted me of B, I will be held responsible for B and you will not.  You will not be charged with rebellion (sin) if you are rejecting B and I will be in rebellion if I am rejecting B (James 4:17 & John 9:41).

 

You are I differ, Gregory, on some doctrines.   How can the same Spirit convict you of one "truth" and me of another?  

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel asked in the quote below:

A fundamental question here is:  What is the source of your conviction?  

Satan and God, through the agency of the Holy Spirit, are in a battle to obtain your allegiance.  You have a choice to make.   If you chose to reject the conviction of the HS and  follow the leading of Satan, you will be lost, regardless of that fact that you have been convicted.  If you chose to follow the conviction of the HS, you will not be lost.

The issue is not whether or not the HS has convicted you in one manner and convicted me in another manner.  When the HS convicts you and I on a subject, we will both be convicted the same.  Now, there may be steps to be taken.  And you and I may not be convicted on the same number of steps on that issue.  As an example, let us say that the Sabbath is a doctrinal issue that the HS has convicted both you and I and we have both accepted what the HS has taught us.     My observance of the Sabbath is not the same today as it was 12 months ago.  I have felt a need to make some changes.  So, your observance of the Sabbath may not be the same as is mine.  That may be because the HS has not yet led you to understand that point, and you may have gained an understanding of a point that I have not yet gained.   In any case, God is not judging you and I by an arbitrary standard.  Rather, God is judging you and I by what the HS has convicted you and I of and whether or not we are in rebellion to that conviction.

 

Will I be "saved" because I obeyed my conviction - even if the conviction I experience, is different from the one you experience?



•  

[Gregory Matthews]

In a previous post, Rachel asked about  Sau who sinned in ignorance prior to his conversion.  She askes    if he would have   been saved if he had died during that period of time.  For some reason, I am not able to quote her exactly, so I will respond without that quote:

*  If Saul was not in rebellion against the conviction of the Holy spirit, yes, he would have been saved.

Folks, I am not going to say a lot.   In many ways, salvation is a choice.  There is an aspect that I have not addressed here.  That is that with the death of Christ on the cross, forgiveness was extended to all of humanity--those who had previously lived, those who lived then, and those who would live in the future.  From this perspective, salvations only depends on the choice that one makes as to where to spend eternity.  It is now the function of the HS to help us to understand what that eternity will be like and at that point we decide whether or not we want to live like that.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

On one last comment as to posts made by Rachel:  She has stated that certain specific doctrinal understandings are essential to salvation.

 

She is correct from the perspective that doctrine teaches us about God, and our understanding of doctrine may affect how we relate to God and whether or not we want to spend eternity with God.

As an example,  I would not want to spend eternity with a God who kept people alive so they could be tortured by fire throughout eternity.  If I believed that God did that, I would reject that God.

 

 

[JoeMo]

In John 14:6, Jesus pronounced that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  I find this to be a fundamental truth which we must all believe. 

Jesus is the Way, because His is the only Name under heaven by which we may be saved. 

He is the Truth because He is the Word (Truth) made flesh.  He is not only the Author and Finisher of our faith - the Alpha and the Omega - He is the embodiment of Truth.

He is the Life, because it is only through His sacrificial death, mercy, grace, and love that we can have life eternal.

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, JoeMo said:

How long is forever and ever once the millennium is over and we enter into eternity?

No human knows.   The Greek - directly translated - means "unto the age of the age".   How long is that?  Doesn't say "without end".  Doesn't say "for eternity". 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

In a previous post, Rachel asked about  Sau who sinned in ignorance prior to his conversion.  She askes    if he would have   been saved if he had died during that period of time.  For some reason, I am not able to quote her exactly, so I will respond without that quote:

*  If Saul was not in rebellion against the conviction of the Holy spirit, yes, he would have been saved.

Folks, I am not going to say a lot.   In many ways, salvation is a choice.  There is an aspect that I have not addressed here.  That is that with the death of Christ on the cross, forgiveness was extended to all of humanity--those who had previously lived, those who lived then, and those who would live in the future.  From this perspective, salvations only depends on the choice that one makes as to where to spend eternity.  It is now the function of the HS to help us to understand what that eternity will be like and at that point we decide whether or not we want to live like that.

Gregory, You are describing what human beings MUST DO - respond to the Spirit - the Spirit of Christ (the ONLY mediator).  I agree with this.

I am asking,  What INFORMATION do human beings need, in order to make an INFORMED CHOICE to respond to Christ - with love and obedience - or to resist. 

What teachings are essential?  What does a human being have TO KNOW - in order to be "saved" ?

I don't see how God could justly reject a human being who NEVER HEARD of Him, who was never told of His law.  

Or do you think all humans have a built in conscience that informs them of the existence of God, and informs them that some things are "right" and some are "wrong" - and they can be judged (saved or lost) on the basis of their actions in response to their conscience prompted by the Spirit of God (without ever knowing that HE exists) ?   Some do believe this.  

[8thdaypriest]

Do those who have lived since the death of Christ, have it easier than folks who lived before God gave His Son?    One wonders if all the folks who lived without that full display of God's love, will be judged far more leniently. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

This kind of comment is called "I" trouble. Neither you nor anyone of us even has to "see" that answer. God takes care of that department. There is a reason that Jesus said "IF we have faith the size of a mustard seed," and He was trying to point out that THAT seed is the smallest seed in existence; so it is NOT Biblical to mandate what "I see"  as the "answer" here. The only thing we can do is to

 

Wander - if you don't think you need to know ANYTHING, and no one needs to KNOW ANYTHING - then why do you post here, or discuss ANYTHING here? 

[8thdaypriest]

In the Garden, Adam and Eve knew they were created.  They also knew the Creator gave them a command - not to eat of one specific tree. 

Arene't these the fundamental, bottom line things a human being needs to know:  That God exists.  That HE is THE CREATOR.  That HE has a law. 

When they were banished from the Garden, the LORD added another truth - that HE would send a Deliverer to "crush the Serpent's head".   To believe that Jesus IS that deliverer - that is essential - but one must respond to that knowledge with submission and service.  

The demons "believe" - so belief is not enough - to be "saved". 

Jesus told Nicodemus, that he must "be born again".   That would be a surrender - to the indwelling of the Spirit.   That must be our response. 

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Do those who have lived since the death of Christ, have it easier than folks who lived before God gave His Son?

Good question.  I have often wondered this myself.  Sometimes it seems like it.  But is that just an illusion?

[phkrause]

On 11/15/2018 at 4:01 PM, The Wanderer said:

THAT might NOT be so "essential" for some to "believe?"  There are some (I being one of them at some points in my life) where things are just going so awol and the suffering is so immense, that it physically, spiritually, and emotionally crushes us. And sometimes people do NOT believe that God loves them. And THE GOOD NEWS is that this does not bother Jesus in the least. For it was through the caring hands of one particular nurse that I did come to KNOW that Jesus loves even me. There was NO doctrine involved. There was not "teaching" or brain washing or other forms of convincing. I remember many nights I would be lying in bed with bandages literally from head to toe from severe burns and donor sites for massive skin grafts, and I still have some doubts some days; but back then, all I KNEW for sure was when Lillian would come in after her shift (3-11) and say to me as she took my hand "David; I am going to stay with you now until you are not afraid." And I would be asleep in 15 minutes, totally at peace.

Back then, I knew nothing of doctrine. Nothing of scripture. All I knew was how that nurse treated me. So some twenty years later, I had occassion to go to an Adventist Church, and (Ill share that story later) I was never so shocked in all my life when I walked into the sanctuary of the little church in Paris. Guess who was standing at the door greeting visitors?  Yes, it was Lillian! But what shocked me even more, was that many of the people that I met that day had the very same "qualities of goodness and mercy" that I had remembered in that nurse from twenty years ago! They were all just like her! THATS the "doctrine" that I would say is important.

That's absolutely beautiful!!!

[Lone Ranger]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The demons "believe" - so belief is not enough - to be "saved". 

I would disagree with this exegesis. The text actually says "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." James 2:19.

The demons believe THERE IS ONE GOD. (Which they would actually know.) The text does NOT say they believe in or on the sacrifice of Jesus, which provides salvation.

So I maintain that, in the words of Paul, belief IS  enough. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Acts....something or other.

[phkrause]

16 hours ago, JoeMo said:

How long is forever and ever once the millennium is over and we enter into eternity?

I believe it would be about the same forever and ever time as Sodom and Gomorah are under!!

[JoeMo]

50 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Maybe "demons" do KNOW as you said; BUT HOW do we know if they are telling the truth about about their belief? What was the purpose of this text? What is the context for us here? Does it MATTER which way the demons believe? Why?

Maybe (and I'm just saying maybe) even though they do know that He is a loving, merciful God, they don't care about that; they care about power and control; so they go on sinning.  Many of us are the same way - we don't care about a loving God as much as we care about money, power, and the things of this earth and the flesh.  Plus, we have the added incentive of being saved by grace; so for some (I pray a very few), it is a license to sin.

[Lone Ranger]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Maybe "demons" do KNOW as you said; BUT HOW do we know if they are telling the truth about about their belief? What was the purpose of this text? What is the context for us here? Does it MATTER which way the demons believe? Why?

The point I was making is that IMO, 8th day is misinterpreting and misapplying the text. The conclusion that belief is not enough to be saved does not follow from a reading of this text, especially in light of Paul's words in Acts 16:31.

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

The point I was making is that IMO, 8th day is misinterpreting and misapplying the text. The conclusion that belief is not enough to be saved does not follow from a reading of this text, especially in light of Paul's words in Acts 16:31.

Are we still asking the question:  What information is essential to salvation?  What must one HEAR to be saved? 

If you're now asking what must one DO, then maybe put John 3:7 together with  Acts 16:31. 

Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

John 3:7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

WHEN one believes - THE RESPONSE must be to open ones heart to the indwelling of Jesus. 

The demons may know that Jesus was/is the Son of God the Father.  But they have not opened their hearts to receive Him.  They resist - HIM.

The necessary INFORMATION - for salvation - perhaps should include the words Christ spoke to Nicodemous.  "You MUST be born again."  That would necessitate an explanation of "born again" - what that means.  Folks need to understand that God/Christ will "come in to" their hearts, to change them, to help them overcome sin. 

Or does that indwelling just happened - without one understanding what is happening?  Ministers of the Gospel would not then need to explain that "born again" promise/process.

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

The point I was making is that IMO, 8th day is misinterpreting and misapplying the text. The conclusion that belief is not enough to be saved does not follow from a reading of this text, especially in light of Paul's words in Acts 16:31.

Can we take these words - spoken to just one man (the jailer at Philippi) - and apply them to everyone?  And also teach them as the total message for everyone? 

Maybe Paul (under inspiration) was telling this man the FIRST STEP in the process to salvation, the LORD knowing this man would also serve Him - not just believe in Him.

Just an aside:  The Hebrew word for "believe" is an action word.  It includes the action flowing from the thought.  It conveys the understanding that one will serve what one believes.

This would mean the belief of demons is essentially different from that of true believers.

 

Should we also teach Christ's words - "IF you love me, keep my commandments" ? (John 14:15)

1 John 2:4  "He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Of course, that leads into which commandments are those of Christ, and which are counterfeit. 

I'm asking what information is essential for salvation?   Should we be teaching about God's law, or only about His love in sending His Son? 

[Lone Ranger]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Can we take these words - spoken to just one man (the jailer at Philippi) - and apply them to everyone?  And also teach them as the total message for everyone? 

Maybe Paul (under inspiration) was telling this man the FIRST STEP in the process to salvation, the LORD knowing this man would also serve Him - not just believe in Him.

Just an aside:  The Hebrew word for "believe" is an action word.  It includes the action flowing from the thought.  It conveys the understanding that one will serve what one believes.

This would mean the belief of demons is essentially different from that of true believers.

 

Should we also teach Christ's words - "IF you love me, keep my commandments" ? (John 14:15)

1 John 2:4  "He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Of course, that leads into which commandments are those of Christ, and which are counterfeit. 

I'm asking what information is essential for salvation?   Should we be teaching about God's law, or only about His love in sending His Son? 

So I see you like to be right, and not challenged. Sorry to rock your world so bad. That was not my intent.

So just for clarity, how many people must something be spoken to in order to be valid? Two, or maybe three? Does it then follow that the Sermon on the Mount is more valid than Jesus saying  to Nicodemus "You must be born again?"

Oh...Wait!  Jesus only said that to ONE person, so I guess that is not valid. And we certainly can't apply it to EVERYONE.

One can believe whatever they are convicted of, and I am certainly not convinced of that theology.

 

[Lone Ranger]

On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 10:44 AM, The Wanderer said:

One quick example: if we KNOW from scripture that when Jesus comes; His feet will not touch the ground, then we wont be hood-winked when someone says "He is here," or "He is there."

I believe this is one of those little shreds of "doctrine" that I mentioned I have bags of. I cannot find any direct Scriptural support for this idea. Rather, it seems it is an implied conclusion drawn from select texts.