The President Travels

[Gregory Matthews]

DO NOT READ THIS unless you are prepared to be shocked.

https://atoday.org/indian-layman-challenges-elder-wilson-when-traveling-dont-act-like-a-king/

 

 

[Gustave]

Looks like a simple matter of Dulia to me.

 

[Lone Ranger]

Just now, Gustave said:

Looks like a simple matter of Dulia to me.

 

Very good, Gustave. Insightful.

[Gustave]

I'm not saying it's wrong - it could be a simple matter of their gift to what they understand to be part of their "established religious authority".  Lots of poor folks over there, and making it so the big boss doesn't have to walk is their way of saying thanks.

[Lone Ranger]

1 minute ago, Gustave said:

I'm not saying it's wrong - it could be a simple matter of their gift to what they understand to be part of their "established religious authority".  Lots of poor folks over there, and making it so the big boss doesn't have to walk is their way of saying thanks.

IMO this is really an Indian cultural affair and really none of my business. They should (and should be allowed to) interpret the good new of salvation in their own culture and cultural context. If this means parading someone around in a gold chariot...I guess that's what they do... 

[Gregory Matthews]

Dulia: " (in Roman Catholic theology) the reverence accorded to saints and angels.Compare with latria."

 

Latria:  "(in the Roman Catholic Church) supreme worship allowed to God alone.Compare with dulia."

[Gustave]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

- from the article:

I had to wonder (not "shocked") if the dude who wrote this has ever practiced his own challenge? The article didnt seem to suggest so.

Sounds like a lot of emotional undulating to me.

(Gustave; you are very charitable)

- rant completed

As Gregory explained there is the sort of respect / worship / Adoration ONLY due to God Almighty and there is the respect or worship we owe those who are above us.  The two types can be seen in the Bible and throughout history. I merely suggest that within the Indian Culture perhaps a way of showing high respect is not allowing someone to walk. The General Conference of SDA is essentially a top down Magisterium and the pictures in that article is merely documentation of it. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Think about what Gustave has stated.  Roman Catholics, and others venerate the saints.  We, as SDAs, do not agree with their basic understanding of saints.  But, we then go on to suggest that they worship the saints in the same sense as we worship God (Jesus).  Veneration, as taught by those denominations is not worship, as applied to God (Jesus).  To claim that it is reflects a basic ignorance of their teaching.

Some will respond to me by saying that they have met a Catholic who actually worshiped the saints.  I do not debate that.  In my employments as a Federal chaplain, I met many people who believed differently from the teachings of their denomination.  As an example, which I have stated before, a Baptist woman once asked me to baptizer her newborn infant.

The bottom line is:  Regardless of the belief of an individual member, Catholics, in their doctrinal teaching, do not give to the saints the worship that should be given to god (Jesus).

 

[Gregory Matthews]

As to the quoted statement that Gustave made below:

While stated with different words, that is essentially the statement of the Father of our current GC President made in the famous Mary Kay Silver litigation of decades ago.

The General Conference of SDA is essentially a top down Magisterium and the pictures in that article is merely documentation of it. 

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Veneration, as taught by those denominations is not worship, as applied to God (Jesus).

"Hail, Holy Queen! Mother of life, our sweetness and our hope! ... Pray for us O holy Mother of God, that we may become worthy of the promises of Christ."  These are some of the words from a prayer traditionally said after a rosary.  Sound like worship words to me.

[Gustave]

22 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

"Hail, Holy Queen! Mother of life, our sweetness and our hope! ... Pray for us O holy Mother of God, that we may become worthy of the promises of Christ."  These are some of the words from a prayer traditionally said after a rosary.  Sound like worship words to me.

Do or did  you ever ask your Mother or someone else's Mother to pray for you either directly or indirectly? 

[Gregory Matthews]

 

To suggest a meaning for you prayer I would write:

"To one set apart for the religious life, to the Queen Mother, one who presents our prayers to God, Please present them, oh set apart one, the Mother of God, and ask that we may become worthy of the presence of Christ in our lives."

 

To be clear, the above does not represent my personal view of prayer and the role of Mary.

 

 

 

 

[Gustave]

57 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

 

To suggest a meaning for you prayer I would write:

"To one set apart for the religious life, to the Queen Mother, one who presents our prayers to God, Please present them, oh set apart one, the Mother of God, and ask that we may become worthy of the presence of Christ in our lives."

 

To be clear, the above does not represent my personal view of prayer and the role of Mary.

 

 

 

 

That is what I understand the meaning to be in the original prayer. Gregory, I appreciate your clarification as to what the prayer means to Catholics. You are certainly a credit to your Denomination.  Due to YOU ( or better said the way in which you have presented some of the SDA beliefs ) I have softened some of my stances on your Church. 

[Gregory Matthews]

We value your presence here in this forum.  Continue to dialogue with us.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

lol ... I think the last U.S. President to receive a royal garland when visiting India was Richard Nixon.  Prince Charles and Camilla received modest ones in 2013.   I find it wryly humorous that the SDA prez and wife accept massive ones in 2010. 

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

Do or did  you ever ask your Mother or someone else's Mother to pray for you either directly or indirectly? 

Yes; but they weren't dead at the time.

Gustave, I mean no disrespect.  I was a "good" Catholic for almost 20 years - even seriously considered going to the seminary.  When I started reading my Bible above and beyond what was preached in the Epistles and Gospels recited at Mass, I noticed that Mary was never mentioned in scripture after the book of John.  Furthermore, nowhere in scripture is she mentioned as sinless throughout her life, nor that she was assumed into heaven, nor that she was ever crowned queen of heaven, nor that she needs to mediate between us and Jesus to convince Him to mediate for us with the forgive our sins.  When, at the age of 20 (I'm 68 now), I approached a priest who was a very good friend and role model about this and other discrepancies between scripture and Catholic doctrine, he finally told me that I could either accept what the Bible said or what the Church says; but that I could never reconcile the two.  I left the Catholic Church that day.  BTW, I am still friends with many Catholics - including priests.  I have learned that as far as Christianity goes, it's not what you know, it's Who you know.  I consider many of my Catholic friends and relatives to be better Christians than me.

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Yes; but they weren't dead at the time.

Gustave, I mean no disrespect.  I was a "good" Catholic for almost 20 years - even seriously considered going to the seminary.  When I started reading my Bible above and beyond what was preached in the Epistles and Gospels recited at Mass, I noticed that Mary was never mentioned in scripture after the book of John.  Furthermore, nowhere in scripture is she mentioned as sinless throughout her life, nor that she was assumed into heaven, nor that she was ever crowned queen of heaven, nor that she needs to mediate between us and Jesus to convince Him to mediate for us with the forgive our sins.  When, at the age of 20 (I'm 68 now), I approached a priest who was a very good friend and role model about this and other discrepancies between scripture and Catholic doctrine, he finally told me that I could either accept what the Bible said or what the Church says; but that I could never reconcile the two.  I left the Catholic Church that day.  BTW, I am still friends with many Catholics - including priests.  I have learned that as far as Christianity goes, it's not what you know, it's Who you know.  I consider many of my Catholic friends and relatives to be better Christians than me.

No disrespect taken

As one who seriously considered going to the seminary you would know that a Catholic Priest (despite how much you like him) has less than zero weight when it comes time to defining what can or can't be reconciled with Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition. Despite this, once you heard that Priest say what he did you left the Catholic Church that day and eventually came to call home the Seventh-day Adventist Church, who's founders, WOULDN'T be able to join the SDA Church today, because they would be required to swear belief "in the Trinity" which they most vocally repudiated as unbiblical - at the same time they were "studying the Bible" & coming up with distinctive SDA Doctrines? 

As for the comment about the dead - praying for the dead and asking for their intercession is a Jewish practice that predates Christianity by significant time. George Storrs was who brought this idea to the other Adventists, post William Miller.

On the reverse of your last statement I'm willing to bet there are SDA's who are FAR better Christians than me so point well taken (and appreciated) there. 

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

In the post above, Gustave made the statement quoted below which may confuse some people:

*  Under Roman Catholic doctrine priests do not define doctrine.  Their main purpose is to administer the sacraments and to teach doctrine that has been defined for them.

*  Doctrine is defined by Bishops, not priests.

*  The College of Bishops defines doctrine when it is meeting in Magisterium.

*  The pope, who is a Bishop, defines doctrine when speaking  ex cathedra.

 

Quote

. . . you would know that a Catholic Priest (despite how much you like him) has less than zero weight when it comes time to defining what can or can't be reconciled with Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition.

[Gregory Matthews]

Some may wonder why I spend time arguing on some of the points that I make.  One of my understandings of God, and a very important one to SDAs, is that God is a God of truth and that it is   important that those who follow God (Christians) be people of truth.  Certainly no one, to include me, is truthful in an absolute sense.  But, it is an objective (goal) that I want to reach.

From this perspective:

*  It is important that I be able to acknowledge the faults and imperfections in the teachings, organization and structure of the SDA Church.  As an organization that is , at least in part, human, it is not perfect in the absolute sense and never will be.

*  It is important that when I talk about other groups of Christians, such as the Roman Catholic Church, that I present it, its teachings, structure, practices and all else in an accurate and truthful manner.

I attempt to do the above, and when wrong appreciate correction.

 

[Gustave]

6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

In the post above, Gustave made the statement quoted below which may confuse some people:

*  Under Roman Catholic doctrine priests do not define doctrine.  Their main purpose is to administer the sacraments and to teach doctrine that has been defined for them.

*  Doctrine is defined by Bishops, not priests.

*  The College of Bishops defines doctrine when it is meeting in Magisterium.

*  The pope, who is a Bishop, defines doctrine when speaking  ex cathedra.

 

Yes, a perfect example is  Arius.

Arius was a Priest who started teaching something very contrary to his Bishop (who was theologically in agreement with the other Bishops). There were many, who, after hearing Arius's preaching or reading his treatise (that The Son was mutable, could have lost his own salvation, etc.) that FOLLOWED after Arius. The "Christian Council" condemned the teachings of Arius as heretical - therefore, anyone who followed after those teachings AFTER that point was rejecting God. 

Consider it this way - suppose a large group of "Adventists" rejected the Sabbath teaching while it was being promulgated AND after Ellen White said she had visions from God about how it must be observed. Would an individual who rejected the validity of Ellen White's visions pertaining to the Sabbath, drinking adult beverages be welcome to stay inside the denomination or would the other members within it urge the individual to leave?  

The General Conference is essentially acting like the College of Bishops and the General Conference President is essentially acting like "the head Bishop" (Pope). 

I say these things only to demonstrate the very Biblical concept of submitting to God's established Religious Authority.  

 

 

[JoeMo]

On 12/1/2018 at 8:46 PM, Gustave said:

praying for the dead and asking for their intercession is a Jewish practice that predates Christianity

Just cuz the Jews did that doesn't make it right.  There are many admonitions in the OT about trying to communicate with the dead.  Doing such was punishable by death (although that probably wasn't enforced very often).

[phkrause]

On 12/1/2018 at 10:46 PM, Gustave said:

As for the comment about the dead - praying for the dead and asking for their intercession is a Jewish practice that predates Christianity by significant time.

Not that I believe this or not, I've never heard that before!! None of my family in all the years that I can remember back, not one of them ever mentioned that!! Do you have a actually link to a website that says that? Thanks in advance!!

[Gustave]

11 minutes ago, phkrause said:

Not that I believe this or not, I've never heard that before!! None of my family in all the years that I can remember back, not one of them ever mentioned that!! Do you have a actually link to a website that says that? Thanks in advance!!

Sure, it's common practice of observant Jews. Your Jewish and have (practicing Jewish Family) and have never heard of it? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC4WVrasEmE

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/367837/jewish/Kel-Maleh-Rachamim.htm

https://mountsinaiparks.org/el-malei-rachamim/

https://www.shiva.com/learning-center/prayers/kel-maleh-rachamim/

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/el-maleh-rahamim/

 

 

 

[Gustave]

33 minutes ago, phkrause said:

Not that I believe this or not, I've never heard that before!! None of my family in all the years that I can remember back, not one of them ever mentioned that!! Do you have a actually link to a website that says that? Thanks in advance!!

Forgot to add a link.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm

I know several Jews who are observant and this is their belief. The ONLY faction of Judaism that  I know of that rejected a spiritual existence apart from the body were the Sadducee - who Christ vigorously corrected - as well as St. Paul. 

[phkrause]

33 minutes ago, Gustave said:

Your Jewish and have (practicing Jewish Family) and have never heard of it? 

Yes I was born into a Jewish family, but never raised as a practicing Jew! My dad who spent 2 years in a labor camp and 5 years in 3 different concentration camps, had no desire to bring us up as Jews. He didn't believe in God, because God would not have allowed this to happen, so he wanted nothing to do with God. My Mom on the other hand wanted us to have a Godly upbringing, so she looked for and found a Bible worker through the VOP and started taking Bible studies, and eventually found a Jewish/Adventist Temple. My father also eventually came around and started joining us each Sabbath. The rest of my family pretty much stayed in the Jewish faith. But never did they talk about praying over the dead!!