Sunday Laws

[Gregory Matthews]

See:

https://atoday.org/are-sunday-laws-coming/

 

[B/W Photodude]

25 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

See: https://atoday.org/are-sunday-laws-coming/

Interesting article

Bruinsma wrote:

Ellen White wrote her book The Great Controversy in the late nineteenth century, against the background of circumstances that prevailed in the United States. Her world was divided between Roman Catholics and Protestants.  ... However, her world no longer exists. 

The great challenge for Sabbath-keeping Adventists is not to keep talking about an end-time scenario that is increasingly implausible, 

Let us not waste energy on trying to push an unrealistic  Sunday-law scenario, but promote and model a life in which the Sabbath-rest,

However, what has actually happened:

Pope Francis delivered his encyclical on the environment (Laudato si)  in June 2015.  On September 24, 2015 he addressed the United States Congress, calling for action on Climate Change.

Acknowledging that the environment is getting worse, Pope Francis addressed this message to “every person living on this planet” and urged us to make improvements for the environment.  Towards the end of his address, the Pope connected the environment with Sunday keeping, linking it to a concern for the nature and for the poor.  He also later said that “humanity has disappointed God’s expectations”.

Later the same day, President Barack Obama said the following in a press release through the White House:

“I welcome His Holiness Pope Francis’s encyclical, and deeply admire the Pope’s decision to make the case – clearly, powerfully, and with the full moral authority of his position – for action on global climate change.” ... “…it is my hope that all world leaders–and all God’s children–will reflect on Pope Francis’s call to come together to care for our common home.”

EGW, whose world no longer exists, wrote:

“Satan puts his interpretation upon events, and they think, as he would have them, that the calamities which fill the land are a result of Sunday-breaking. Thinking to appease the wrath of God, these influential men make laws enforcing Sunday observance. They think that by exalting this false rest day higher and still higher, compelling obedience to the Sunday law, the spurious sabbath, they are doing God service” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 10, p. 239).

“Men in responsible positions will not only ignore and despise the Sabbath themselves, but from the sacred desk will urge upon the people the observance of the first day of the week, pleading tradition and custom in behalf of this man-made institution. They will point to calamities on land and sea—to the storms of wind, the floods, the earthquakes, the destruction by fire—as judgments indicating God’s displeasure because Sunday is not sacredly observed. These calamities will increase more and more, one disaster will follow close upon the heels of another; and those who make void the law of God will point to the few who are keeping the Sabbath of the fourth commandment as the ones who are bringing wrath upon the world. This falsehood is Satan’s device that he may ensnare the unwary” (Christian Service, p. 155).

Read more at:
http://www.fulcrum7.com/blog/2018/12/18/mr-z-and-the-sunday-law

I hope we can see that what was prophesied is being carried out a bit at a time and will likely increase in intensity as more disasters occur.

[TrevorL]

Greetings B/W Photodude,

16 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I hope we can see that what was prophesied is being carried out a bit at a time and will likely increase in intensity as more disasters occur.

The Great Controversy of the End Times will be and it is already developing, is the status of Jerusalem as stated in Zechariah 12:2-3 and implied in Zechariah 14:2, especially “half of the city”. There is no mention in the Scriptures that the Sabbath will be the crucial controversy. Jerusalem and the nation of Israel do not find much relevance in SDA theology as they do not believe in the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years, when Christ will sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem, over a converted remnant of Israel and the nations Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2:35,44, Acts 3:19-21.

Kind regards
Trevor

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

The Great Controversy of the End Times will be and it is already developing, is the status of Jerusalem as stated in Zechariah 12:2-3 and implied in Zechariah 14:2, especially “half of the city”.

I do not really give any place to Israel in terms of end time events. Do keep in mind that Israel is often a name God gives to His people and not necessarily to the nation of Israel.

1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

There is no mention in the Scriptures that the Sabbath will be the crucial controversy. Jerusalem and the nation of Israel do not find much relevance in SDA theology as they do not believe in the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years, when Christ will sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem ...

This may be one of those places where you will need to use your God given powers of deduction to see how the Sabbath will be a crucial controversy. When it is a given among most Christian that all of the ten commandments are still binding except that almost all religions state the fourth commandment no longer is binding, that is a commandment of men. But the Bible states very clearly regarding those in Heaven that they keep the commandments of God. One of His commandments is the Fourth commandment to keep the seventh day holy. 

It is kind of like digital subtraction angiography. You subtract all of the features that are the same and then the differences will stand out. The seventh day Sabbath is one thing that will stand out after you have subtracted the similarities!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMX1NhQm0qo

[TrevorL]

Greetings again B/W Photodude,

5 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I do not really give any place to Israel in terms of end time events. Do keep in mind that Israel is often a name God gives to His people and not necessarily to the nation of Israel.

I am aware of the use of the term “Israel” in the NT, but there are many prophecies that involve the natural nation of Israel in the latter days. Ezekiel 38 is an important prophecy that sets the framework for this consideration, and Daniel 11:40-45 and Zechariah 14 are other important references. I appreciate that these references do not fit in with SDA theology, and I am unaware of the SDA position on these references.

5 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

This may be one of those places where you will need to use your God given powers of deduction to see how the Sabbath will be a crucial controversy.

From my God given powers of deduction I would suggest that the trend is in the opposite direction. At one time in Australia, Sunday was a relatively quiet day, no shops open, no sport, and some attended church. But today, shops are open and busy, Sunday is the main sports day, and everybody is on the move for one reason or another. The churches are not attended by many, and even the Catholic Church has moved its services to Saturday night or early Sunday, so that all of these other activities are not interrupted. So, I will wait for any development that you suggest, but I am not really anticipating this process, especially in Australia.  

5 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

When it is a given among most Christian that all of the ten commandments are still binding except that almost all religions state the fourth commandment no longer is binding, that is a commandment of men. But the Bible states very clearly regarding those in Heaven that they keep the commandments of God. One of His commandments is the Fourth commandment to keep the seventh day holy. 

My understanding of the Sabbath is that Jesus is the true Sabbath Matthew 11:25-30, and that the lessons of the Sabbath are also given in Hebrew 4:1-11.

5 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

It is kind of like digital subtraction angiography. You subtract all of the features that are the same and then the differences will stand out.

You have given an interesting insight into “digital subtraction angiography” and I assume that this is part of your work. I have been involved in another form of imaging, making tiff versions of our electrical drawings that were originally drawn in ink, so that they could be viewed on computers and also amended by CAD.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

On 12/19/2018 at 10:57 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

See:

https://atoday.org/are-sunday-laws-coming/

 

Pastor Matthew: I would like to thank you for posting this article. As you know, I have been saying for years, since; I have been on this forum that the Bible does not give a Sunday blue law scenario. I also have stated that EGW, herself, said she was not a prophetess. Yet, we continue to view her as one which has become a crisis in our denomination. Even on this forum, there are those who become upset when anyone provides her writings. She clearly informed us that she was a messenger and that is my stance, as well. There were things that the pioneers believed in that were error and unless we listen to her as she aged, then we lose the reason for her calling! The final masterpiece of her work was Testimony to the Ministers. The greatest Chapter was “How Shall we Study the Scriptures.” Two simple facts she gave should have change the SDA church belief. The first is her appeal that something once believed could be an error. She pleaded that we should not hold on to the error, but instead acknowledge the truth, according to the Bible. She made it very clear that only THE ALMIGHTY ONES ARE INFALLIBLE.

Second fact she gave is about Daniel and Revelation. EGW was very clear that Daniel and Revelation that they accepted was not clearly understood. It must coincide with the Bible. The 2300 day prophecy is correct. When Hiram Edison saw that THE SON moved into THE MOST HOLY PLACE and Judgment then started for the entire world; it was correct. Dan 7:9, 10, 13, 14; Rev Chapter 4&5  The little horn was correct and it grew to become the 7^th head of the beast. It spoke blasphemous things from the beginning against THE MOST HIGH and it attempted to change Time: Holy Convocations to pagan feast days: Sunday, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, New Years, Valentine day, St. Patrick and so on. All these days are proven to be lies! You cannot claim to serve THEM accepting a lie! Times and Law are together and the little horn tried to reduce the Law and tried to change them! (The horn) Dan 7:8, 11, 20-22; (The 7^th head) Rev 13:1, 3; 17:10, 11 The 7^th head was clearly identified to be the Gentile and the whore. The Gentile identified the 7^th head ethnicity and the whore is a symbol of a woman who was a fornicator and produces offspring. Her power and her sins were great! She was an imposter and seduced the kings of the earth. (Gentile)Luke 21:24; Rev 11:2 Clark and Gill both wrote that is was Rome, but it was Dr. Gill who states it was a church and identified it with papal Rome. Only one writer, who had written the truth that was even before EGW that was overlooked by the pioneers. (Whore) Rev 17:1-7, 15-18

One of the articles in Adventist Today attempt to argue that the pioneers were also wrong about “the little horn,” which is total opposition to the article you presented about the Sunday blue law. The truth of prophecies is proven by the Bible. The Sunday thought that the pioneers believed are not found in the Bible. You cannot make symbols fit something that is base on a belief. It fits because of “line upon line and precept upon precept. Here a little, there a little.” The time that the pioneers lived in Sunday was highly reverence, but the truth will overshadow darkness. It was never a Holy day and could never be totally kept like the Sabbath! When the Sabbath became known, opposition arose and the pioneers felt that the mark of the beast refers to the Sunday. A day is not a mark, it can’t be. A mark is something that you write on something, even your skin. On our skin, it is called a tattoo and this mark has come back with force today! So the Article starts with Adventist should ask themselves the time, but they also should question the mark!

Adventists must ask themselves: Does the Bible clearly predict a time when merciless Sunday laws will be enforced?  We should realize that this Sunday-law scenario is mainly based on the interpretation of the prophecies of the Revelation by Ellen White in her book The Great Controversy. For some, this means that, against all present appearances, the Sunday laws are coming, because “she says so!” For others, it means that Ellen White was wrong and that she is thereby disqualified as a prophetic beacon for the Adventist believers.

For me, it means that we must revise our concept of inspiration.

Ellen White wrote her book The Great Controversy in the late nineteenth century, against the background of circumstances that prevailed in the United States. Her world was divided between Roman Catholics and Protestants. She belonged to a tiny Adventist sect that was not welcome. She lived in a time when politicians at the state level and the national level were doing all they could to enforce Sunday observance. She experienced how in some states Sabbath keepers were actually put in prison!

No one was given a vision on Sunday as a blue law. John and Daniel saw the beast and we must go back over our steps and carefully with prayer study the truth about the beast. It is there and just like Sunday, we need to correct our errors so we won’t be lost!

 

Blessings!

[Kevin H]

There is another post here where I wrote some but got too tired and busy to really continue, maybe the same will happen again now. But I have also posted more complete comments in similar threads on this forum.

Those who are a bit more liberal point out the difference between our culture and Mrs. White's culture, and this is once again about half the truth. Our church is too much having people take half the truth and use it against the rest of the truth. With the liberals focusing on the differences between the historical context of her words and our historical context, and the conservatives expecting us to return to the 5th head and each and every point of the application to be fulfilled exactly as how it could have been fulfilled back then.

No one seems to notice that Mrs. White's writings on the topic has two levels. One level is a general principle and more universal applications. The other level is a specific application of this principle. Everyone is focused on the specific, and as we read the more general our minds play a trick and we end up reading into her words the more specific application. Then the more liberal tend to poo poo it and as I said the conservatives cling tighter than a boa constrictor. Both will be our downfall.

[stinsonmarri]

On 12/19/2018 at 10:57 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

See:

https://atoday.org/are-sunday-laws-coming/

 

Corrected version:

Pastor Matthew: I would like to thank you for posting this article. As you know, I have been saying for years, since; I have been on this forum that the Bible does not give a Sunday blue law scenario. I also have stated that EGW, herself, said she was not a prophetess. Yet, we continue to view her as one which has become a crisis in our denomination. Even on this forum, there are those who become upset when anyone provides her writings. She clearly informed us that she was a messenger and that is my stance, as well. There were things that the pioneers believed in that were error and unless we listen to her as she aged, then we lose the reason for her calling! The final masterpiece of her work was Testimony to the Ministers. The greatest Chapter was “How Shall we Study the Scriptures.” Two simple facts she gave should have change the SDA church belief. The first is her appeal that something once believed could be an error. She pleaded that we should not hold on to the error, but instead acknowledges the truth, according to the Bible. She made it very clear that only THE ALMIGHTY ONES ARE INFALLIBLE.

Second fact she gave is about Daniel and Revelation. EGW was very clear that Daniel and Revelation they accepted was not clearly understood. It must coincide with the Bible. The 2300 day prophecy is correct. When Hiram Edison saw that THE SON moved into THE MOST HOLY PLACE and Judgment then started for the entire world; it was correct. Dan 7:9, 10, 13, 14; Rev Chapter 4&5  The little horn was correct and it grew to become the 7^th head of the beast. It spoke blasphemous things from the beginning against THE MOST HIGH and it attempted to change Time: Holy Convocations to pagan feast days: Sunday, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, New Years, Valentine day, St. Patrick and so on. All these days are proven to be lies! You cannot claim to serve THEM accepting a lie! Times and Law are together and the little horn tried to reduce the Law and tried to change them! (The horn) Dan 7:8, 11, 20-22; (The 7^th head) Rev 13:1, 3; 17:10, 11 The 7^th head was clearly identified to be the Gentile and the whore. The Gentile identified the 7^th head ethnicity and the whore is a symbol of a woman who was a fornicator and produces offspring. Her power and her sins were great! She was an imposter and seduced the kings of the earth. (Gentile) Luke 21:24; Rev 11:2 Clark and Gill both wrote that is was Rome, but it was Dr. Gill who states it was a church and identified it with papal Rome. Only one writer, who had written the truth that was even before EGW that was overlooked by the pioneers. (Whore) Rev 17:1-7, 15-18

One of the articles in Adventist Today attempt to argue that the pioneers were also wrong about “the little horn,” which is total opposition to the article you presented about the Sunday blue law. The truth of prophecies is proven by the Bible. The Sunday thought that the pioneers believed are not found in the Bible. You cannot make symbols fit something that is base on a belief. It fits because of “line upon line and precept upon precept. Here a little, there a little.” The time that the pioneers lived in Sunday was highly reverence, but the truth will overshadow darkness. It was never a Holy day and could never be totally kept like the Sabbath! When the Sabbath became known, opposition arose and the pioneers felt that the mark of the beast refers to Sunday. A day is not a mark, it can’t be. A mark can be chalk of some kind or a pen with ink that you write on something. It can even be burned on things, including your skin. On our skin, it is called a tattoo and this mark has come back with force today! So the Article starts with Adventist should ask themselves the time, but they also should question the mark!

Adventists must ask themselves: Does the Bible clearly predict a time when merciless Sunday laws will be enforced?  We should realize that this Sunday-law scenario is mainly based on the interpretation of the prophecies of the Revelation by Ellen White in her book The Great Controversy. For some, this means that, against all present appearances, the Sunday laws are coming, because “she says so!” For others, it means that Ellen White was wrong and that she is thereby disqualified as a prophetic beacon for the Adventist believers.

For me, it means that we must revise our concept of inspiration.

Ellen White wrote her book The Great Controversy in the late nineteenth century, against the background of circumstances that prevailed in the United States. Her world was divided between Roman Catholics and Protestants. She belonged to a tiny Adventist sect that was not welcome. She lived in a time when politicians at the state level and the national level were doing all they could to enforce Sunday observance. She experienced how in some states Sabbath keepers were actually put in prison!

No one was given a vision on Sunday as a blue law. John and Daniel saw the beast and we must go back over our steps and carefully with prayer study the truth about the beast. It is there and just like Sunday, we need to correct our errors so we won’t be lost!

 

Blessings!

 

[Kevin H]

The Bible does not give a scenario on Sabbath-Sunday because it was not written in the 1800s. The Bible had different applications based on the historical circumstances that it is facing. All of these are still based on the larger picture that Mrs. White gives us. Amos tells us that if the situation changes too much God will raise up a new prophet with the new specifics, but often while the immediate context changes, there area still enough similarities for us to make better application on the prophet's application.

The great principle that we see all through the Bible and into Mrs. White is the idea of liberty of conscience. The freedom to worship according to the dictates of your conscience. The two steps here are:

1. Are you going to be fair to what you understand the Bible to teach, or are you going to come up with reasons to not follow what you understand.

2. Are you going to respect others in their liberty to follow the Bible according to the dictates of their conscience.

To Mrs. White the specific is Sunday laws and how they play a role in are people going to choose to follow the Bible or follow tradition or other excuses not to follow  the Bible, and enforcing these ideas upon others. A second step with this is the rise of spiritualism.

Once again we miss Mrs. White's words because of our presuppositions. We see the word "spiritualism" and read into it seances and Ouija boards. etc. But to Mrs. White these things are only one way of spreading spiritualism. But that spiritualism itself is that final truth is found in our existential experience . Our truth lies inside of us and one mind cannot judge another. Now the existential experience is important, but it is not the authority for truth. Authority for truth lies in God our creator. Mrs. White sees spiritualism as the philosophy of existentialism.

To Mrs. White she sees the issue being liberty of conscience, coming against people choosing to go against what they see in the Bible and the world uniting with the papacy, apostate Protestantism and existentialism. She makes specific applications to Sunday laws, but she also back away from her strict application to sunday laws by going more for the larger applications, and seeing Sabbath-Sunday issues (not necessary the outright Sunday laws that we expect) bringing the test to the Christian world. It indicates that other parts outside of the interactions between Christians will have other issues besides Sabbath-Sunday issues. So she sees Sabbath and Sunday playing a role among Christians. She does not go into details here. It could look like we are about the get the expected Sunday laws, but that they don't quite crystallize. But the issues brought up makes people think about how they will follow the Bible, or if they will avoid the Bible to follow their traditions.

[stinsonmarri]

On 12/21/2018 at 2:21 AM, Kevin H said:

The Bible does not give a scenario on Sabbath-Sunday because it was not written in the 1800s. The Bible had different applications based on the historical circumstances that it is facing. All of these are still based on the larger picture that Mrs. White gives us. Amos tells us that if the situation changes too much God will raise up a new prophet with the new specifics, but often while the immediate context changes, there area still enough similarities for us to make better application on the prophet's application.

3

Brother Kevin: I agree, the Bible does not give a scenario on Sabbath-Sunday period. However, in the New Testament, YAHSHUA raised up disciples and apostles. The last prophet viewed everything until YAHSHUA came the final time and renew the earth and brought down the New Jerusalem. John was the last prophet period, why because we don't need another prophet!  The Bible said so in Acts and we just will not listen. EGW saw what John already saw. She and Hiram were given certain visions or reminders because the truth had been forgotten. Then, she said she was not a prophet, why keep making her what she was not called to be by YAHSHUA HIMSELF? Don't you think she knew what she was called, she said she was called to be a messenger. The angel Gabriel had to tell John not to worship him because he was fellowman like him! We need to accept and respect what she said if we are going to accept her visions!

John never mentions the Sabbath but once in Chapter 1. The first day was never mentioned at all! He never put the two days at odds with each other. When we try to make something to be that it is not, it becomes delusional, which I kindly say is a lie! Again, we are doing to John the same way we are doing EGW. We say John said things he did not say!

A sign is different from a seal. The Sabbath is a sign, the seal is an impression that can be stamped within the mind by THE HOLY SPIRIT. The remnant, who will keep, ( THE HOLY SPIRIT seals or impress in their mind), all the Commandments and have the Testimony of YAHSHUA, which is THE SPIRIT of PROPHECY, and the Everlasting Gospel! Now, the Sabbath is in the Commandments! The Sabbath is a sign that points back to Creation and to THE ALMIGHTY ONES! Remember, YAHSHUA Said that HE IS MASTER of the Sabbath, that's the sign!

Blessings!