Illegal Aliens

[Stan]

Many countrys are dealing with people not being their legally.

For those who claim their citizenship is in heaven, should our primary goal to move them back, or break open the word to them, or perhaps both?? OR something else???

[LynnDel]

I'm not sure what kind of bait you're dangling here, Stan -- Are you saying that your native country is heaven, and you want to be deported? If so, me too! Or perhaps you are saying that some folks are sneaking into heaven illegally??? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> When it comes right down to it, I guess all of us would be illegal there, but for one thing - Christ.

LD

[cricket]

Who has a right to be in any country? Those that are born there, or those that are willing to be obedient to the laws?

Who makes the laws? Those that are born in the country, or those that take it over by force?

Who's to say that immigration laws are just?

Who says, "When I was naked, you clothed me? When I was hungry, you fed me?"

Who's to say that someone breaking the immigration laws will not be obedient to all other laws?

[Dr. Shane]

This is a real issue for many hispanic churches in the US. I have been a member of churches that do not allow illegals to hold a position in the church like elder, deacon, Sabbath school teacher, etc. I have also been involved in churches that have the "don't ask don't tell" philosophy.

[Nan]

There are issues in this country - a lot of us are disgusted at the way the government has handled the issue of 'boat people' - keeping them on off shore islands until a place - not in this country - can be found for them.

I have taken a very small action, making myself available for medical visits by women who might need my services, but I have never met some one who acknowledges being an 'illegal'.

For an example of how we should treat refugees and those noncitizens in need, check out Aldona's signature. She is involved in helping in a very practical way.

[Paula]

I, on the other hand, have been in SDA churches where it is preached from the pulpit that the whole world is the Lords and that we are His children. As such, we have inherited all that is the Lords and therefore have a God given right to live in any country we chose, because it all belongs to our Father. If we are the kings children, then we inherit all that is his. Not saying wether or not I agree... only that it has been preached. I have also been to several South Florida SDA churches that rallied their members to go to the immigration marches, and that told their members to be sure to participate in the May 1st boycott. They know exactly who is and who isn't legal and they do not discriminate by allowing some to serve the Lord, but banning others. As far as I know, the churhces Shane has been a part of that refuse to allow illegals to particpipate as fulfledged members are going against SDA policy. No where in the Church Manual does it say that legal status must be ascertained before one can participate. I find it political, and not in the spirit of Christ in which, "there is no greek, no jew, no slave and no freeman".

[Dr. Shane]

Each church congregation has its atonomy to decide for itself how to handle the issue. Those that do not allow illegals to serve do not want to encourage them to "pit down roots" in a community that they will only have to leave. Nor do they want the church to become dependant on one that INS can sweep away without any notice.

[Paula]

Hey Shane!!

Good to hear from you again!! Its been a while... did you get my PM?!?!?

Anyways... I wonder... are these American churches or Hispanic churches? And if they are American, do people go around "asking", or do they assume? I can understand that in a Hispanic church those who are illegal would not be as guarded about it, so the rest of the church members would know...

[Dr. Shane]

The ones I have been a member of are hispanic churches and illegals often are not guarded about it. Perhaps in Florida it is different but In Minnesota and Texas, illegals don't keep their status secret. Often times they even ask me if I know an American they can marry so they can get their papers.

I sat on a nominating committee that decided not to nominate a seminary student from Montemorelos to be an elder because he had overstayed his visa and was thus in the country illegally.

[Kountzer]

I have mixed feelings about the whole illegal immigrant issue.

To an extent I can understand their situation. Still, it irks me to see someone protest and fly another countrie's flag on U.S. soil. Maybe I should just look at it prophetically and consider it another sign of the times. Just another issue building up to Dan. 12:1.

DB

[Amelia]

I'll tell ya what irks me no end is someone who is here ILLEGALLY demanding, DEMANDING rights. Could you just see what would happen to an American Illegally living in another country, if they demanded anything? You already know what happens to them when they are there legally.

[Paula]

What happens to them, Amelia? I've been to quite a few other countries and Americans are always treated like kings. With much kindness and respect. The only exception would be Muslim nations. But there are certain factors at work in that instance. First of all, no country wants to have another country come in to "liberate" them when they haven't askd for it. No one likes to be occupied. So to expect EVERYONE to love the American soldiers there (though its not their fault, they are just following orders) is a bit naive. But other than that, my experience has been that whenever I go to a country where there is an American they are always always treated VERY well... so I don't know what you are talking about.

[Dr. Shane]

If we want to discuss the war in Iraq we might want to start another thread, maybe in World Affairs. From what I understand, Americans are not treated well in France although they were welcomed as liberators when they "occupied" the country in 1945.

Americans are taught to repect other nations when we travel abroad. When we go into another country we must respect their laws and obey them. We are not to expect other countries to change to accomodate us.

Yet I can personally testify that many Mexicans that come here, to the area I live in, do not respect our laws. They speed, they run stop signs, they drink and drive, they drive without insurance and they overstay their visas. The number of car accidents here are disproportionaty Mexican. When I use the word Mexican I refer to Mexican citizens not Americans that have naturalized from Mexico or Americans with Mexican heritage.

I heard a hispanic preacher preach a sermon that said if God wants a person to come to America, He will make a way for it to happen legally. Those that disregard the law and overstay their visas or come in illegally are not demonstrating a true faith in Christ. If God doesn't allow for it legally it is because He has plans for them in their own country. By staying here illegally they are resisting the will of God.

[lazarus]

Quote:

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For those who claim their citizenship is in heaven, should our primary goal to move them back, or break open the word to them, or perhaps both?? OR something else???

---

In our conference 23 of the 26 new congregations in the last 5 years have been Spanish. Could it be that God is using immigrants illegal or otherwise to revitalise some of the evangelistic work on NAD?

Its interesting read the news reports in the US about immigrants from Italy Ireland etc. in the early 20th Century. The italians refused to learn the language etc. The discussion and the tone is largely the same.

Its sad that those whose families were immigrants all those years ago have simply forgotten or haven't bothered to think things through. Its frustrating that so many Christians parrot the same tired racism of the early 20th century.

[Dr. Shane]

One must keep in prespective that we are talking about illegal aliens and not legal alliens. The United States allows more Mexicans to immirgrate to the US each year legally than any other group from any other country. The US needs immirgrant labor, wants and values immirgrants. The whole issue revolves around the status of the ones that are illegal.

How would the church treat others that break the law? How should the church treat those that drive without insurance and make no secret of it? How about those that do not pay their taxes? How about those that hunt without a liscense? How about those that illegally copy and sell copyrighted material? Should such members hold church positions?

[Kountzer]

A related issue is the real id act. Soon every person in the USA will be required to come into a dps or dmv office and re establish their id, by presenting a birth certificate and social security card. If you were born in another country, you will have to show, or re show your passport/visa, green card, EAC or whatever. They may ask for more documents than that. The Texas phase of this, called identex, will be kicking off soon. They are talking about having dps driver license offices open from 7am til 7pm m-f and 7am to 2pm on saturdays, with mandatory work on Saturdays. I may have to transfer or find another place to work altogether.

DB

[Dr. Shane]

You won't have to transfer if you are an Adventist. If you have any problems just contact the union's religious liberty department.