Circumcision and the Sabbath. What do they have in common?

May 12, 2006

Why did God wait until Abraham’s and Sarah’s reproductive organs were completely useless?

Let's go to Gen 15:1 And Abram said [to God], “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.” 4….[God replied:] a son coming from your own body will be your heir.” 5 He [God] took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Gen 16:1 NOW Sarai, Abram’s wife had borne him no children, and she had an Egyptian maid whose name was Hagar. 2 So Sarai said to Abram, “Now behold, the LORD has prevented me from bearing children. Please go in to my maid; perhaps I shall obtain children through her.”

And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai….

4 And he went in to Hagar, and she conceived...15 So Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. 16 And Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to him.

Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless [context: blameless in faith]. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

Verse 9: Then God said to Abraham [note his name change], “As for you, [:"red"]you must keep my covenant[:"black"]….10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep:

Every male among you [:"red"]shall be circumcised.[:"black"] 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and [:"red"]it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you![:"black"]

Verse 14: Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh,[:"blue"]will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” [:"black"]

Verse 15: God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife…16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”

Verse 17: Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born toa man a hundred years old? Will Sarah [note her name change] bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18 And Abraham said to God, [:"red"]“If only Ishmael might live under your blessing [i.e., as the child of promise]!”[/] 19 But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him ….21 “…My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.”

Verse 24: Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that same day.

21:1 THEN the LORD took note of Sarah as He had said, and the LORD did for Sarah as He had promised. 2 So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time of which God had spoken to him. 3 And Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him, whom Sarah bore to him, Isaac. 4 Then Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him.

Please note the events leading up to Isaac’s birth (the son of promise):

* God came to Abram and promised him that his children would number as the stars in the heavens. At this time Abram and Sarai were childless. Abram believed God and it was counted to Him as righteousness. Abram was justified by faith.

* Sarai remained childless, so she suggested that she and Abram should help God keep His promise by helping Him produce the child of promise.

* Thirteen years later God again came to Abram. The first thing He requested of Abram was to walk before Him in perfect faith. The second was the sign of circumcision as a sign of faith. Anyone who refused this sign would be “cut off”! At this time God also changed their names to Abraham and Sarah.

* Abraham asked God to accept Ishmael as the child of promise, but God wouldn’t accept Abram’s work and refused his request. Again God repeated the promise that a son would be born to him and Sarah. Abraham was now 99 and his wife, Sarah, was 90 years + and far beyond her childbearing years.

* One year later Abraham and Sarah gave birth to the child of promise, Isaac.

Do you see why God introduced the circumcision as a sign of faith? Paul clues us in:

“For we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh….” [Phil 3:3]

True circumcision is putting no confidence in one’s performance! The circumcision that the Judaizers demanded [see Acts 15:1,5] was completely opposite the circumcision God requested of Abraham. That’s because the Judaziers demanded circumcision as a means of salvation.

You see Abram’s act of trying to help God produce the child of promise was an act of unbelief. He didn’t trust in God’s promises….In response God gave Abram the sign of circumcision, “a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised.” [Rom 4:11]

God waited 13 long years until both Abraham’s and Sarah’s reproductive organs were completely useless. Scientifically and medically it was impossible for them to produce the child of promise.

Now it's time for a simple biological question: How did Abraham conceive Ishmael??? More precisely what male tool did Abraham use to HELP God produce the so-called child of promise??? That’s right, his private part. Therefore the removal of the foreskin of Abraham's "private part" was representative or symbolic of having no confidence in the flesh, but rather in the promises of God. [see Phil 3:3] It, although a strange symbol, was a sign of righteousness by faith. Why? Again, it was the tool used to help God produce what He promised. Only after he fully believed [i.e., he gave up on his works program] that God followed through with His promise and produced the child of promise.

True circumcision (as given to Abraham) was a sign of having no confidence in one’s performance, but rather in the promises of God! Anyone who refused it migrated to the camp of unbelief and self-righteousness and were “cut off” from God’s people.

Just as there are two types of circumcision, there are also two types of Sabbaths….One comes from the Old Covenant and depends on man’s work in helping God save him. The other is a sign of God’s complete work in Christ Jesus. Those who refuse will be “cut off” from the kingdom of heaven.

May 17, 2006

Thank you Robert. An additional note to consider is that when God made the covenant it was made with the standard covenant of the time, that Abraham would be use to. In this style of covenant there was a physical mark made on the body, the removal of an earlobe or ear, or finger or toe etc. Therefore Abraham was expecting to put a physical mark on his body.

Now it was very common in ancient Canaan to perform circumcision, the later newcommers the Philistines did not do it, and a few cities, such as Shechem didn't but archaeologists say that this was the exception not the rule. People tend to pick up the culture around them. The odds of Abraham's family picking up circumcision were great, so since Abraham was expecting a physical mark on the body, God choose something that they would probably end up doing anyway. Thus Circumcision, unlike the Sabbath, is rooted in local tradition that God did not need, but which Abraham could not understand a covenant without some kind of physical alteration to the body. That is why Isaiah could predict that a day was coming when circumcision would no longer be an issue and gentiles could keep the Sabbath even without it.

So tell me Robert, why would Isaiah only be half right?

And although you gave a good study in implications of the symbolism applied to circumcision, you tie it in to the idea of a major split between old covenant and new covenant. I believe that you have presupositions based more on tradition but which would not stand up to scruteny of the scriputres. May I encourage you to listen to and get the notebook of, as well as books in the bibliography in the notebook of Jim Fleming's "Acts: New Discoveries from the Early Church" written by a Methodist Archaeologiest and the Bibligrophy refers to other Non-Adventist Bible scholars who give strong arguments where if they are right, then you are wrong. I would invite you to look at this information and you are free to show where these scholars are wrong and you are right.

If you type in "Jim Fleming" and "Biblical Resources" in your web brouser you can find the site.

May 20, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Thus Circumcision, unlike the Sabbath, is rooted in local tradition that God did not need, but which Abraham could not understand a covenant without some kind of physical alteration to the body.

Well, I can't find your reasoning in the Bible. As far as "God needing" goes, He doesn't "need" the Sabbath. It too is a sign of faith.

May 20, 2006

Circumcision is good for the sanitation purpose; one less place for bacteria to reside.

May 20, 2006

Circumcision is also a personal choice to make.

Which can be taken literal & metaphorically.

June 9, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Just as there are two types of circumcision, there are also two types of Sabbaths….One comes from the Old Covenant and depends on man’s work in helping God save him. The other is a sign of God’s complete work in Christ Jesus. Those who refuse will be “cut off” from the kingdom of heaven

You have my attention! Could you expand please?

June 10, 2006

That was me (Rob), not gina i. Do you still want a response?

June 10, 2006

Didn't God require all male to be circumcised as the sign of His children? Isn't the Sabbath the sign between the creator and creatures?

Won

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

whbae said:

Circumcision is good for the sanitation purpose; one less place for bacteria to reside.

Um, the American Academy of Pediatrics's policy on circumcision is that there is no benefit for routine circumcision.

June 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

whbae said:Didn't God require all male to be circumcised as the sign of His children?

No!

Here are some clues:

Phil 3:3 For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee, 6 as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law blameless.

Romans 4:9 ....We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

As a Pharisee, Saul had "confidence in the flesh". As we read the context we realize that equates to self-righteousness (read Phil 3:5,6). True circumcision, says Paul, is not to have confidence in one's performance.

Now let's go to Abraham's actual, physical circumcision. Note that Paul equates Abraham's circumcision as "a sign" of righteousness by faith he had before he was circumcised! Why was circumcision a "sign" of having no confidence in one's performance? Why, to Abraham, was it a sign of righteousness by faith?

Here's what I originally stated:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

How did Abraham conceive Ishmael??? More precisely what male tool did Abraham use to HELP God produce the so-called child of promise??? That’s right, his private part. Therefore the removal of the foreskin of Abraham's "private part" was representative or symbolic of having no confidence in the flesh, but rather in the promises of God. [see Phil 3:3]

It, although a strange symbol, was a sign of righteousness by faith. Why? Again, it was the tool used to help God produce what He promised. Only after he fully believed [i.e., he gave up on his works program] that God followed through with His promise and produced the child of promise.

June 11, 2006

Yes Robert I still want a response

June 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

David_McQueen said:<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Just as there are two types of circumcision, there are also two types of Sabbaths….One comes from the Old Covenant and depends on man’s work in helping God save him. The other is a sign of God’s complete work in Christ Jesus. Those who refuse will be “cut off” from the kingdom of heaven.

[:"blue"]You have my attention! Could you expand please? [/]

First we need to look at circumcision:

True circumcision :

I have already presented why Abraham became circumcised. In a nutshell Abraham tired to help God produce the child of promise by going to Hagar. The child produced was not the child of promise, but rather the child of Abraham's work of unbelief.

Because of this act of unbelief God introduced the sign of circumcision. Why this strange act? Because it was this reproductive tool that Abraham used in his effort to help God produce the child of promise. Hence the cutting away of the foreskin represented having no confidence in the flesh [human works], but rather belief in the promises of God. It was a reminder to take God at His word. Those who rejected it were "cutoff" because the refusal to be circumcised was a sign or symbol of unbelief.

False circumcision :

Go to Acts 15:1 “But some men [Judaizers] came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren [i.e., the Christian believers], “Unless you are circumcised according to the law of Moses, you cannot be saved.…. 15 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees [again, the Judaizers] rose up, and said, “It is necessary [i.e., it is a salvation issue] to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.”

Please notice that the demands of performance were two-fold:

1] The Christian believers must be circumcised or they cannot make it to heaven.

2] The Christian believers must also keep “the law of Moses” – the first, five books of the Old Testament.

So we see that the Judaizers perverted the sign of circumcision from a sign of having no confidence in one’s performance into a sign of works in one’s performance. How did Paul handle this issue?

Turn to Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Anything (especially the law) used as a means of salvation (i.e., a condition of salvation) is a “yoke of bondage”. Christ, says Paul, has delivered us from under the law.

Verse 2: Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision [i.e., as a means of salvation], Christ will be of no advantage to you [i.e., you don’t need Him since you are busy saving yourself].

Verse 3: I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [again, as a means of salvation] [:"red"]that he is under obligation to keep the whole law.[/]

Verse 4: You are severed from Christ [i.e., you are “cutoff”], you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Conclusion:

Abraham became circumcised as a sign that his trust was in God’s promises. As Paul points out, “He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. “ [Romans 4:11]

Abraham’s reception of circumcision didn’t justify him because he was already justified by faith alone. True circumcision was therefore a sign of Abraham’s justification by faith. Anyone male who refused to wear it meant that he belonged to the camp of unbelief. In other words he believed he could help God keep His promises including the promise of salvation.

The Judaizers took this sign of righteousness by faith and made it a sign of salvation by works. They perverted its meaning and made it a condition of heaven.

Does this make sense? We have to get this down before I look at the Sabbath as a sign!

Rob

June 12, 2006

Here's Jack's take on circumcision:

God comes to Abraham and says, “Look, I want you to leave your family, your country to the land I will give you. I will make you into a great nation, and in you, Abraham, I will bless the whole world.” That was the promise of salvation to Abraham. And, of course, John 8:56 tells us that:

Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

How old was Abraham when the promise was made? He was 75 years old, Genesis 12:4 makes it clear. But he had no children. How could God bless the world, how could God make him a great nation when he had not even one son? So God promises him a son. In that promise was a son.

Eight years went by. Now it takes human beings nine months to produce a child. But now eight years went by and no son had come. So in chapter 15 of Genesis, Abraham’s faith begins to dwindle. It begins to waiver. And God says to Abraham, “Why are you fearful?” (which, in the Hebrew language, means, “Why are you doubting my promise?”).

Abraham said, “God, it’s because you have not kept your promise. The only son I have in my household (which to the Jew was the extended family) is this boy of Eliezer my slave. Is he the promised son?”

And God said, “No. The son I promised you will come out from your loins.” And he took him for a walk. When you have problems with God, go for a walk with him. God said, “Abraham, look at the stars.” Of course, in the Middle East, it doesn’t rain very much, and we have many clear skies. And God said, “Count the stars.”

Abraham said, “Lord, even if I had a Ph.D. in computer science, impossible.”

“That is how many children you have,” said God to Abraham. And there you have that famous statement that Paul loves, that he quotes more than once in the New Testament, Genesis 15:6:

Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

There was no evidence. He didn’t have even one son, but he believed God that he would have millions of children, when he had, in actual fact, not even one child. That is faith.

Two years later, chapter 16 of Genesis, Sarah comes to Abraham, “Yes, you are depending on God, but I think what God expects is for you to do your part. And since you, Abraham, cannot produce a child through me, I will give you permission to go to my slave woman, and produce a child.” Which was a common practice in those days. Surrogate motherhood is not something new; the method is new, but the system is not new.

Abraham said, “Yes, Sarah, I think you are right.” Because now it is ten years, because as I read verse 3 and verse 16 of chapter 16 of Genesis, I discover that he is 85 years old when Sarah comes up to him, and he’s 86 years old when Ishmael is born.

Ten years after the promise, Abraham commits an act of unbelief. He is not trying to be bad or sinful, he’s trying to help God to keep His promise. That’s all he’s doing. So Abraham says to God, “Here is your promised son.”

And God says, “Nothing doing.”

Do you know how long God waited after that? Fourteen more years. Talk about patience! God waited 14 more years after that incident. Going to the next chapter, chapter 17, now Abraham is 99 years old — that’s 14 years later — and God says something to Abraham. I want you to notice what He says. This is one text I want to read, Genesis 17:1, because we hear this word very often, but we use it in the wrong context, so I want you to look at this word in the right context. You will notice it’s part and parcel of the wonderful truth of justification, or righteousness by faith. Please notice his name. He is not yet Abraham, he is Abram. It is only after circumcision that he is called Abraham. Genesis 17:1:

When Abram was 99 years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless....”

Blameless in performance, or blameless in faith? That’s the issue. Righteousness, whether imputed or imparted, is God’s part. My part, from beginning to end, is faith. God is saying to Abraham, “Your faith has not been matured, it has not yet reached perfection. I want you to be perfect in your faith.”

Abraham said, “What must I do to be perfect?”

“I want you to be circumcised. Remove all doubt. Remove unbelief.” That’s the meaning of circumcision. And so in verse 9, 10, and 11, God gave him the covenant of circumcision, as a token. You’ll find that word, “token” (or “sign”) in verse 10. Genesis 17:10-11:

This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign [the King James version uses the word “token”] of the covenent between me and you.

In other words, “From now onwards, Abraham, it is by faith alone that you must walk.”

And Abraham said, “Yes.”

By the way, 17 years later, that faith that was sealed was tested. Abraham passed it. The test was terrible. Hebrews 11:17:

By faith Abraham, when God tested him offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son....

“Take this son, in whom I promise salvation, and kill him.”

And Abraham, by faith, obeyed God because he believed that, “If he gave me a son when I couldn’t produce it (scientifically, medically, humanly, whatever way you want to put it), I believe that he can raise this son from the dead. I will sacrifice him.” Folks, when your faith is sealed, we will be tested also.

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