Daniel 8 - 12 Reexamined

[Gregory Matthews]

https://atoday.org/progressive-present-truth-in-daniel-8-12/

 

[phkrause]

Well I thought that it was a plausible scenario! 

[B/W Photodude]

I have been wondering about all this push to prove Islam is the bad guy of Revelation. I don't buy it. Islam and other religions of the world, IMHO, could disappear overnight in the final events of the world. Babylon as the false religion of Daniel and Revelation will be there until the end. There is another principle in action in many of these strange interpretations of the Bible that I hope to get into soon.

People have largely stopped talking about the impersonation of Jesus by the AntiChrist and the relationship to the Roman church. When the spectacle of the angel of light shows up in person, I suspect that all religions will quickly fall into place behind Rome and there will be no more Islam, Bhuddism, Hinduism, and so on.

While Jesus will be seen by every eye at his coming, the AntiChrist will virtually be seen by nearly every eye via satellite feeds and HD big screen TVs all over the world, if everyone hasn't migrated to 4K by then. The whole world watching in unison can happen that fast. 

I recall flipping channels one night on my TV between shows and happened to land on a 24hr news show and to my amazement I was watching the Fukishima tsunami in real live progress. Nearly the entire world can be tuned into the same event at the same time.

I remember watching the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination (back in the days of black & white TVs where one of the kids in the family was the remote!) and was stunned to see Oswald get shot in live action. But I digress!

[JoeMo]

Thanks for posting this Gregory.  I and some other members here have been posting similar messages about this for years.  I heard a non-SDA "prophet" present almost the exact same message about 6 months ago.

[Gregory Matthews]

I post on a number of topics that I consider to be of current interest and discussion in the SDA church today.  My posting does not indicate whether or not I agree with the position of what I have posted.

Certainly in some cases I do agree.  But in others I disagree, in part if not totally.

 

[phkrause]

15 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, of course. NP there. May I ask specifically what you thought was "plausible" in the cited scenario? I want to avoid presuming, so I am asking.

First off I don't believe that Islam is the big bad guy! Now having said that, I can see Islam being an instigator as Pastor Roosenberg mentioned. I've always wondered how would Islam wander after the Beast Power?? Pastor V had a lecture once that had said that the Catholic Church had created the Muslim/Islam for some purpose (at this moment I can't remember, its been a number of years I'd have to search it out and rewatch!!). At the time I thought that that was a pretty legit explanation as to one way that Islam would follow the beast. But at this point I still have my doubts as to Islam just bowing down, but as pastor Roosenberg puts it, that they have declared a holy war against Christians, it seems to make more sense that they go after the pope and than the rest of the world's christians go after them. Again this is an on going prophecy and as the piece's fall into place, things might be a little different!! Again my belief is that the beast is the RCC and nothing has as of yet changed my mind to that effect. One of the things that makes me believe that is, that the Bible always talks about the church itself being the beast and the only church that is mentioned in the Bible is the church that Jesus and the Apostles started. Which in my mind is the church that today is the RCC!! I could be wrong but I don't thing so?? That's my opinion!

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

Again my belief is that the beast is the RCC and nothing has as of yet changed my mind to that effect.

I disagree; but I'm not saying you're wrong; it's just my current opinion that Islam will be the beast power.  Nonetheless, Catholicism and apostate Protestantism will both be key players in end-time events.

Many Muslims are currently experiencing dreams and visions of Christ.  AFM missionaries in Muslim countries estimate that up to 80% of the Muslims who come to them are directed to their ministry by a vision or dream of Christ.  Many of them don't even know who the Guy in the dream is until the missionaries tell them.

[JoeMo]

This may be a subject for another thread.  I did a word search for "antichrist" in the Bible, and got 4 hits - all in John's epistles; none in Revelation.  Yes, there have been antichrists and the spirit of antichrist throughout history.  But is there an end-time individual called the "AntiChrist"?  I see an earth beast, a sea beast, an image of the beast, a dragon, and a harlot (among others), but I don't see an "AntiChrist" named in the Book of Revelation.  If the same John wrote both the Epistles and later the Book of Revelation, why would he not mention a specific "AntiChrist" in Revelation?

[JoeMo]

10 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

we need to begin and to sustain this "Loud Cry" as far as we can upon the foundation of "the righteousness of Christ."  This is the most sadly neglected part of prophecy in the churches; "Christ and Him crucified."

?

[JoeMo]

13 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

As we know, large swaths of "Christianity" insistently refer to Antiochus Epiphane as the "horn" of this passage,

Antiochus was a "type", but the "antitype" has yet to arrive.

[JoeMo]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

What is the scripture criteria for choosing the idea of "type" for Antiochus or any other king; and does not a singular name contradict the bible's clear use of the plural when talking about "anti-Christ?"

For me, the historical fact that Antiochus actually did many of the things Daniel prophesied (including ending the daily sacrifice and standing in the temple proclaiming himself to be God), coupled with the fact that Jesus implied that the prophecy of the one who sets up the abomination of desolation is still in the future, one can easily conclude that Antiochus is a type.  So was Hitler and Stalin.

[Aliensanctuary]

I see Islam as a force capable of destroying the followers of YHVH worldwide, thinking it is doing "god" a favor. Unlike Christianity, Islam is a religion of death, not life, even though Islam borrows from the laws of Moses.

 

[8thdaypriest]

My personal belief is that Islam will be the counterfeit "Antichrist". 

When the real Antichrist shows up, he will destroy Islam in a powerful way and "rescue" Israel.  The whole world will "worship" (serve) him, believing he is Christ returned. 

The recent whopping increase in UFO sightings ties in nicely.  I believe the being who shows up to save the world from the brink of destruction, will claim to have "visited" this planet 2000 years ago - as Jesus, and also to have "visited" as Buddha, and as various wise teachers in every culture around the world.  The New Age people call them "ascended masters".   Certainly the whole "Star Trek" series has prepared minds to accept such an occurrence. 

Yes - the Pope would no doubt welcome him with open arms.  

The deception has to be almost perfect to bring all the human race to worship this being.  Satan knows the prophecies.  He will make it seem they have been fulfilled.  I personally believe that Satan will be behind the 7 trumpets.  Most folks know about the 7 last plagues.  They don't understand that the 7 trumpets come first and are limited in scope.  Which means they would easily be deceived into thinking that the 7 trumpets are the 7 vial plagues (which are universal in scope). 

nuff for now

[Kevin H]

We will not get Daniel right until we get the exegetical applications of Daniel.

We like to ask "What does it mean" but we are going to get all different types of answers, both good, bad and shades in between until we ask the question "What DID it mean" 

All Biblical texts have an immediate or not all that too far into the future application. When we see what COULD have happened then we can make a better application as to how it will happen, at least when it is time for us to know we will recognize it.

At AUC every Bible class (not necessary every religion class but every Bible class) required the reading of the article from the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" with a paper on that article. Of course this meant that the religion and theology students had to read it about twice a year, and most other students would have to read it a few times. It would be wise for us to have Sabbath dedicated to this topic at least once a year. That fantastic article gives an over view or a macrovision; but as we study we can and need to develop a microvision of this chapter to the section of the Bible we are studying. 

A big problem that we have with Daniel is that Satan points us to different times so that we end up not reading it in it's historical context. The two most popular views are that Daniel 1-12 was written directly by Daniel during the  Babylon captivity, and that as he sat by the rivers of the waters of Babylon the only thing on his mind was that the pope was coming, or for others that Antiochus Epiphanes was coming. The other view is that Daniel was written during the Antiochus Epiphanes event.

I'm starting to get tired but Deuteronomy 4 predicted the exile being the end of the world. Daniel 1-7 s based on the idea that the Lord would have set up the kingdom not too long after the exile...

Im tired so have to come back

[Aliensanctuary]

We might consider the possibility that the 4 Kingdoms of the past are chosen to reappear after the 2nd Resurrection, only on steroids. The former leaders would now be alive and well to continue their conquests to unite the world. Beast 4, different from the others, is likely a union of the Kingdom of Satan with earthly powers.

No one can prevent the destruction of human civilization from the advanced technology of Satanic forces. We all know how it ends, though.

[Kevin H]

Try to do a little better tonight. Before we ask what it means we need to ask "What did it mean". 

All of the Bible is written in a way where either the original listeners could have seen the kingdom of God come in their day, or to start a work of spreading the gospel where the kingdom could have come in at most a couple generations. A big problem we have with Daniel is that Satan had split us into either believing that Daniel himself wrote the book from beginning to end and that he was focused on the Papacy. Or else believing the book was written centuries later to deal with the Antiochus Epiphanes  and had nothing to do to Daniel.

But both of these are starting to be questioned. There is too much about Babylon that was wrong that Daniel himself would not have gotten wrong, but also too much remembered and facts that history has only recently rediscovered and would have been long forgotten by Antiochus Epiphanes time. The growing current evidence points to the book itself having been complied by Daniel's students after he had died (notice that his obituary is in Daniel 1), and written sometime between Daniel's death and the time the the Hebrews gave up hope of Zerubbabel reestablishing the David monarchy.  The concern in Daniel was the David monarchy. 

Daniel 1-7 had hopes that there were going to be four kings (and Daniel only names 4 kings) and then the division after Cyrus and the Messiah setting up his kingdom (and that the Babylon exile could end in a second great exodus lead by the Messiah.) Daniel 8 was open to this possibility but realized that there was not that much time and things may change. Daniel 9=12 is a reapplication where there would be a return to the land but not a second glorious exodus lead by the messiah. But it was a return to how God could have used the Hebrews in the land, the reestablishment of the house of David and how Jesus could have come and how the world could have ended had Jesus been accepted. 

As the house of David did not re-establish after the exile, Daniel looked like a failed prophecy and the Hebrews moved on. However, the principle to get to what a Bible text means to us is by reapplying the principles to a similar situation.  When Antiochus Epiphanes came the Hebrews remembered Daniel and it returned to popularity, and apparently has some comments from the margins that eventually got edited into the text which does indeed deal with Antiochus.

These are things that we need to keep in mind as we study.  Sadly unlike Revelation where we can read some good studies on the actual historical context, we need to just look at ancient histories and do a lot of work from scratch. I wish some of our students at the seminary would do a few thesis on this topic. Then look at analogies that have been drawn over history. The Flavian Emperors sounds a lot like Daniel 7 with 10 Emperors, three defeated by Vespasian and Titus destroyed the temple. Then there were the applications to the Papacy that developed through the Franciscans who accepted Joachim of Flore as a true prophet and how it evolved over the centuries into Seventh-day Adventism. As we first look at the immediate context of Daniel, through reapplication both within the book from 1-7/8 and then 9-12, how Cyrus could have meet a powerful Greek long before Alexander the Great, how things would have happened had Jesus been accepted, how we can make applications to the Flavians and the papacy we will have a strong understanding for what it will mean for us. 

Now if all this sounds confusing and a tremendous challenge, maybe somewhat, but the Holy Spirit will show it to our minds and lead our historians to the details as it is needed. Then this will be shared with the rest of us where we can evaluate it by what was said here and then we can grow on their studies. 

[8thdaypriest]

I don't comment too much on prophecies like Daniel 7-12.  I just don't believe we will know for sure until the characters come to life before our eyes, the events take place, and Christ speaks to us - telling us "This is it!" 

There are some clues.  And I do believe some of the prophecies were dual - repeating in the final days before Christ returns.

[JoeMo]

On 6/30/2019 at 6:16 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

My personal belief is that Islam will be the counterfeit "Antichrist". 

When the real Antichrist shows up, he will destroy Islam in a powerful way and "rescue" Israel.  The whole world will "worship" (serve) him, believing he is Christ returned. 

I can see this as a feasible scenario as well.  Will a peacemaker come along and miraculously (through diplomacy or warfare) forge a deal among Christianity, Israel, Sunnis and Shiites and build a "temple" for all monotheistic religions to worship in?  And then sometime later go into the temple and declare himself to be God?