Political Islam

[JoeMo]

In several other threads, when I have associated Islam with political strategies, some people have responded that Islam is not a political agency, but only a religion.  I ran across a video (link below) where Bill Warner (who has studies Islam inside and out for over 40 years) presents historical and current  data demonstrating how Islam - with a strategy of centuries rather than months or years - has systematically taken over a large portion of North Africa and Asia using a strategy of saturation and elimination of rival religions.

I post this not as a knock against Islam, but as a demonstration that people a lot smarter and informed than most of us on this forum agrees that the long term goal of Islam is to "convert" the entire planet under Islam and Sharia Law. Nonetheless, I imagine I will get considerable pushback on this.  So be it.

 

[Lone Ranger]

To the Muslim mind there is no "separation of church and state" as we in the Western Christian world understand it. Islamic states operate on principles of Islam as revealed in the Quran. 

Of course,  there is a continuum from "conservative" to "liberal," but by and large this is the case. 

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

No "40 year studies" by a guy who has never lived the life of a Muslim is going to change that and convince me that Islam "might" be "anti-Christ" or any such thing.

Neither I nor the the guy in the video ever said Islam is the antichrist (although I admit I have opined that in other threads).  Did you watch the video?  The guy presented historical fact - data that he has collected over the years.  He makes no judgement.

I've never lived life as a Muslim either nor have I lived among them.  Why would I want to?  Why would he want to?

[JoeMo]

17 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

that definitely would depend upon which "Muslim mind" one was talking about. IMHO

Most professed Muslims have never read the Quran, the Sura, or the Hadiths; just like most Christians have never read the Bible. If you watched the video, you would have seen that the Quran was written in two stages - the "peaceful" version written in Mecca; and the "jihadi" version written later in Medina.  The Hadiths say when "facts" in the Quran seem to contradict one another, the one written later rules over the one written earlier.  The one written later calls for death to Christians and Jews.  They did a pretty good job.  While the Christian Church reigned for about 400 years in the Middle East and North Africa, by the year 900 they were almost all gone; and the area was almost 100% Muslim; and remains so after 1100 years.

Almost all of Islam calls for the utter obliteration of the Jews and the nation of Israel.  Show me just one Islamic leader who defends Israel's right to exist?  Islam is of one mind on the issue of Israel.

[JoeMo]

3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Perhaps this is a good point to ask you; why is it important for us to believe that Islam is political? Why are you telling us about this?

Simply because others have been claiming differently.  IMHO, Islam is the only world religion seeking to take over the world one country at a time (as they have for 1100 years) and the extinction of all other religions.

[Lone Ranger]

12 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Perhaps this is a good point to ask you; why is it important for us to believe that Islam is political? Why are you telling us about this?

IME, Islam in North America is not the same as Islam in Islamic countries, or where Muslims hold a significant portion of the populace . There is no separating Islam and politics. While it is true that Christianity has been used politically, it is not a political religion in the same way that Islam is political. 

15 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Most professed Muslims have never read the Quran, the Sura, or the Hadiths; just like most Christians have never read the Bible.

A majority of the Muslims I knew had large segments of the Quran, if not all of it, memorized.

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

IME, Islam in North America is not the same as Islam in Islamic countries,

... Yet.  20 years ago, Neither France, Belgium, Germany, or Great Britain had a significant Muslim population, and everything was stable.  Look at them now. By 2050 (if time lasts that long), Islam will surpass Christianity as the world's largest religion for the first time in history.  Christianity has held grass roots political power for over 1500 years (at least in the West).  Once Islam surpasses Christianity in size, don't you think that baton of power could very well pass?

4 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

A majority of the Muslims I knew had large segments of the Quran, if not all of it, memorized.

That has not been my experience.

I am not against Islam.  I pray for their conversion every day.  The mission work I most strongly support is the work among Muslims in the Middle East, North Africa, and Central Asia.  Muslims who convert to Christianity in these areas are very brave and put much faith in Jesus.  They are so fervent in their faith they put most Christians to shame.  If Muslims in mass ever turn away from Allah and turn to Jesus, what a revival that would be!

[JoeMo]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Really? Conversion to what? Your version of religion? Your brand of "Christianity?"

I wonder how much division and strife this very judgment has had on our world...got to "convert them..

Isn't "converting them" or "making them disciples" what the great commission is all about?  Aren't we called to bring the world to faith in Jesus?

 

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

The reason you called me judgmental in another thread was because I was protesting this very thing and I dared to say its not "Christian"

You are taking my statement out of context.  My post containing this statement had nothing to do with converting people.

I am sorely tempted to just quit posting.  Lately just about everything I say  here is met with criticism and confrontation.  I try to post stuff that may be of interest, and I feel like I am treated as an infidel by some.  Maybe I need to confine myself to the emoticons and posting jokes and trivia questions. Nothing wrong with that; and I wouldn't have to face such resistance.  Anymore I feel like sharing here is simply putting myself up for ridicule.

It's weird, because most of the people at the two SDA churches I attend are interested in discussing this kind of stuff rather than trying to silence people who have questions and concerns about our historical views; and are trying to read the signs of the times.

[Lone Ranger]

I seem to be noticing a certain "darkness" creeping into this forum, much akin to the environment of MSDAOL. It is one of the reasons I have not been posting of late. Much sarcasm,  twisting of others' posts, anger at alternate viewpoints.

I recognize that I myself have at times participated in such;  I regret that. It is easy to be un-Christian in the anonymous environment of a forum.  But it is important to me to review not just the content of my posts, but the tone as well.

I really DON"T want this forum to go the path of MSDAOL.

[JoeMo]

Lone Ranger, Also thank you.  There are so few regular posters here any more.  It feels like AS is transforming into an exclusively traditional SDA site  where if ideas that  question or challenge traditional Adventism are posted, they are met with hostility and confrontation rather than calm reason.  I confess that I, too have participated in this behavior.  That's why I will be increasingly hesitant to post anything outside the boundaries of 28 Fundamentals; nor will I question or criticize those who post traditional, historic SDA concepts that I don't agree with.   Outside of the occasional "like", I may totally abstain from doctrinal or theological discussions.  Everyone here is a Christian", so who am I to question them or try to introduce new thought?  Let everyone here believe what they want.

24 minutes ago, Lone Ranger said:

It is one of the reasons I have not been posting of late.

Good strategy.  I might try it.

[Lone Ranger]

I would miss you...

[Lone Ranger]

22 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

It feels like AS is transforming into an exclusively traditional SDA site  where if ideas that  question or challenge traditional Adventism are posted, they are met with hostility and confrontation rather than calm reason. 

I have also noticed that, but I think it is the influence of a single prolific poster, and not the intent of the forum. Many of the more rational posters have reduced their postings. 

[JoeMo]

3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

But there we go again with labels.

As you have told me so many times in the past, this isn't just about you, it's about the tone of the whole site in general - at least the topics in which I participate.  Maybe I'm part of the problem?

 

8 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I was actually hoping for someone to debunk what I posted above,

What - so you could debunk them back and then they could debunk you back ad nauseum?  Isn't "debunking" kind of negative?  Is there anything anyone could say that would change your mind about Islam (or the Trinity or the Personhood of the HS or anything else we have disagreed on)?  I doubt if there's anything anyone could say to change my opinion, either.

I was raised Catholic.  If I never questioned Catholic belief, I would still be a Catholic praying to Mary and the saints.  Then I was a Jehovah's Witness.  If I never questioned what they taught I would never have discovered the Sabbath and Adventism.  I'm not gonna stop questioning or studying things now just because I am a member of God's "last day church".

IMHO people who have inherited SDA from their parents naturally have fewer questions than those who came in from outside. I will continue to study and question to see whether or not things are true; but I am slowly learning I must keep certain questions or opinions to myself.

[Lone Ranger]

11 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

but I am slowly learning I must keep certain questions or opinions to myself.

That is most unfortunate; one should feel safe asking any question and exploring any topic, as long as there is genuine sincerity on the part of the seeker.

I also learned that lesson, but not until after sacrificing the majority of my life to church service. One of my biggest regrets.  

I know, I'm a slow learner.

[JoeMo]

LR,

I decided to post a "like" on your previous post, but I was tempted to post a "sad" face because your story is so sad. I'll bet guys like Des Ford, John Osborne, and Charles Wheeling feel the same way.  No wonder many people become passive pew-sitters  If you ask questions - even legitimate - there is someone to confront you about your contrarian views.

[B/W Photodude]

21 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I have not felt "safe" on this forum for a long time.

Many, many posts here are of a "gotcha" variety or of the practice of oneupsmanship. It may be a standard acceptable practice for debate teams, but seems to be a bit unseemly when it is a Christian discussion group. 

Jesus said regarding one of the disciples when first introduced that he had no guile in his mouth. Seems to be one of the nicest compliments you could receive.

(For the record, I claim no innocence regarding any of the objectionable characteristics listed above. But I do have some goals.    )

[Lone Ranger]

26 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

(For the record, I claim no innocence regarding any of the objectionable characteristics listed above. But I do have some goals.    )

I think most of us fall into that description. The important thing, IMO, is recognizing it and taking a conscious effort to avoid it. 

[phkrause]

22 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I have not felt "safe" on this forum for a long time.

What???

[B/W Photodude]

11 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Now I am wondering re the topic of the OP, how would one "discuss" it with no "guile?" Seems like a lot of opinions are on the table for that one. Personally, I dont view the OP as "prophecy" its more related to a news item. Or perhaps, politics?

 

Well, I had e observed for a long time some of the things mentioned in the text of the original post. Some may wish to disagree, but it is what it is. 

He discussed how Islam is a political force and has been spreading. That is easily seen in a political and religious way. Europe is getting into a position where they are going to be in real trouble because of Muslim migration. There is no respect of others by many of the migrants and crimes against the "natives" are seemingly acceptable. Women have come under attack with sky rocketing amounts of rapes and sexual assaults, but the feminists in these countries are more concerned about the relatively rare assaults by the native residents. There are even many "no go" zones in some of the cities where the police will not even go.

However, in a religious sense, this migration and taking over religiously has been going on for hundreds of years. Three examples - a fees years ago in India, Hindus attacked and destroyed a mosque. What was seldom mentioned was that it was the birthplace of the Hindu god Krishna. Temple Mount in Jerusalem is now the home of the Dome of the Rock mosque. One of the great Christian cathedrals in Turkey was taken over and today we know it as Hag Sofia. (Hag Sofia is today a state museum is I understand correctly.). I have little doubt that if the invasion of Europe in the Middle Ages that the Vatican would not be a Muslim site.

No guile? Just the facts, sir! (Channeling Joe Friday from Dragnet!)

[B/W Photodude]

13 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

However, in a religious sense, this migration and taking over religiously has been going on for hundreds of years. Three examples - a fees years ago in India, Hindus attacked and destroyed a mosque. What was seldom mentioned was that it was the birthplace of the Hindu god Krishna. Temple Mount in Jerusalem is now the home of the Dome of the Rock mosque. One of the great Christian cathedrals in Turkey was taken over and today we know it as Hag Sofia. (Hag Sofia is today a state museum is I understand correctly.). I have little doubt that if the invasion of Europe in the Middle Ages that the Vatican would not be a Muslim site.

How did I do that? Forgot my point in all the facts. It seems to me that the adherents of Islam have made a practice of "squatting" on the holy sites of other religions as detailed. And where that was not possible, they destroyed those sites they did not like. I refer to the destruction of the 1700 year old Bhudda statutes in Afghanistan.

[B/W Photodude]

59 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Is the political unrest in Europe really because of "Muslim migration?"  Are we really going to trust big media to give us the straight goods there? I posted some links and books there for references. Personally, I am not going to swallow something just because everyone else does. (I trust you know thats NOT any personal comment about you?).  I dont deny there is political unrest. I do question what we are being told about it.

It is very difficult for anyone to really have a true picture of what is happening almost anywhere else, because you are dependent on someone else's word for it. And big media is the last to really trust on that matter. So, you pick thru the news trying to find the truth and you read history to find a reference. But even history is subject to revisionism. Even America's history is currently under assault by the revisionists trying to retell a story of some place they have never been (in time). So, you cannot really swallow anything anyone tells you, you only take it under consideration until you find more out and revise your viewpoints as needed. 

This really becomes important as a mode of operation when it comes to the gospel. Even in practice, many want to run around the world trying to fix things in far away places when there are needs in their very own towns. It is also hard enough to really have a picture of events in your own town. So, in the end, you are sort of stuck with what you can witness and what you can immediately do in your situation. However, we live in a world of dissemblers and truth is hard to come by for how to believe and what to do to help even in your immediate circles.

So, does that mean ignore what is going on in the world? No. You just do your best to create a picture out of the info you rely on. Oh! And seriously study your Scripture and those theologians you have come to trust.

Keep in mind that every individual is a separate universe with their own paradigms.

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Are we really going to trust big media to give us the straight goods there?

Who do you define as "big media"?  If you're talking about 90% of the big media in North America - like CNN, MSNBC, NBC, CBS, and ABC - they are saying just the opposite.  To my knowledge, only Fox is questioning the issue about the increase of Islam in North America.They say that people who blame the recent unrest in countries that have accepted huge numbers of Islamic refugees are simply Islamaphobes, as are people in North America who are concerned about the relatively large numbers of documented and undocumented Muslims who are migrating to North America.

[JoeMo]

Great insightful post B/W!  Thanks!

[JoeMo]

7 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

No one is talking much about Azove

I googled Azove, and all I found was info on a place called Azove, Benin; and some mathematical software.  Can you please enlighten us one who Azove is?

[JoeMo]

7 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

The "new European Unity" that such groups have on their geopolitical agenda, should be scaring a lot more people than it currently does.

So should the United Nations.