Phoenix is Resurrected

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, Lone Ranger said:

It's not personal, but I do not accept M L Andreasen as either reliable, authoritative, or unbiased. 

I suspect you were being so quick to put down Andreasen that you did not notice that he was referencing Josephus.

1 hour ago, Lone Ranger said:

Rather I would like to see an independent, academic source by a peer-reviewed, recognized Biblical scholar.

That is funny right there! Andreasen was considered to be one of the foremost theologians in the SDA church thru the 30s & 40s. He wrote a number of books, taught in seminary, and was president of SDA colleges. He also was one who knew Ellen White and studied her works during visits to her home. He rates very high to me, although I realize many do not approve of his contributions to the SDA church. 

[B/W Photodude]

49 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

 ... but I believe EGW even said somewhere that God has His people in other denominations as well.  When you say SDA Church, are you talking about card-carrying, church attending members of the denomination in good standing, or those who embrace important parts of the SDA message regardless of denomination

For God to have His people in other denominations does not preclude that he has raised up a movement to finish the work of spreading the gospel thru the world. There may be people of God in other denominations, but they do not keep all of God's commandments. That does not mean they wouldn't if they knew better. You really don't have to look further than what has been accomplished thru the SDA church thoughout the world  to see God accomplishing his goals before the end of this age.

[Lone Ranger]

9 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

I suspect you were being so quick to put down Andreasen that you did not notice that he was referencing Josephus

1. The reference to Josephus was in the context of what the temple looked like from a distance, hardly an indorsment of what furniture was in the most holy and/or its reason for being there.

2. Josephus himself is not considered a reliable, unbiased source. 

3. Andreasen, though a capable Biblical scholar in Adventism, relied too heavily on EGW for a world view, and as such was (as most SDA scholars) an eiseget rather than an exegete. 

4. And what is YOUR reason for being so quick to put ME down? Perhaps confine your massive intellect and the resulting comments to the discussion at hand, rather than inventing a nefarious motive on my part.

[phkrause]

Here's a statement from a Jewish website about the Ark!!

The only remnant of the Ark in Jewish life today is the Holy Ark in which Torah scrolls are kept in synagogues. These Arks often are decorated with copies of the Tablets, reminiscent of the contents of the actual Ark of ancient times. The Ark itself plays no role in Jewish life today. Nonetheless, it remains a potent symbol of the Jewish peoples' past, and of the messianic era many believe is waiting in the future.

[Lone Ranger]

Very interesting.

[phkrause]

27 minutes ago, Lone Ranger said:

Very interesting.

I'll see if I can get ahold of my cousin and see what he says! But it could take awhile, because I haven't heard from him in quite awhile!!

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

It's not personal, but I do not accept M L Andreasen as either reliable, authoritative, or unbiased. Rather I would like to see an independent, academic source by a peer-reviewed, recognized Biblical scholar.

And even though there may have been a rock in there, I'm pretty sure they didn't put it there to stand-in for the ark.

I felt the same way, so I did a little research.  Other (non-SDA) theologians say the same thing.  Others say that although the ark was no longer there, the stone on which the ark rested was still there; and the High Priest performed the Day of Atonement rituals upon that stone.  That stone is also believed to currently be under the Dome of the Rock.

Some ultra-Orthodox Jews won't go to the top of the Temple Mount for fear of stepping on some ground that used to be under the Most Holy Place.

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

You really don't have to look further than what has been accomplished thru the SDA church thoughout the world  to see God accomplishing his goals before the end of this age.

Other denominations have done amazing things to accomplish God's goals as well. Take Billy Graham and Dwight L. Moody, for example.  Our job is to bring people to Jesus and His Kingdom; not necessarily to bring them to the SDA denomination.  If I help bring someone into relationship wit Jesus, I'm not "hurt" because they don't become SDA's.

[Lone Ranger]

6 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

really? lol WOW  Its not always about you!! But do carry on...But doo carry on. The drive-bys are somewhat entertaining.

I was not addressing you. Mind your own business.

[B/W Photodude]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

I have a lot of Andreason's books. I think they are really good, although, certain spots in some of them may be a little over-done.

Because I was reading every book I could find on the Sanctuary service, I started out with Andreasen's "Sanctuary Service". I will probably read some more of him when I ever get the time. 

It seems some believe that Andreasen invented the Last Generation Theology. This was discussed in his book. But looking at all the "parts" or characteristics, I find it to be well founded in the Bible and in Ellen White's books. Of other significance, several other writers who I have read were sharing the same impressions of the Last Generation. 

Unfortunately, many SDAs seem to not share the teaching of the people who will be alive when Jesus comes. In fact, many believe they will be able to keep sinning right up until Jesus comes. This seems to be contradictory to the Bible. Also sad is that many cannot see the promises and the blessings of that time. I find it really to be "unbelief." Jesus did ask if he would find faith when he returns.

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Other denominations have done amazing things to accomplish God's goals as well. Take Billy Graham and Dwight L. Moody, for example.  Our job is to bring people to Jesus and His Kingdom; not necessarily to bring them to the SDA denomination.  If I help bring someone into relationship wit Jesus, I'm not "hurt" because they don't become SDA's.

I happen to be a fan of C. H. Spurgeon. I like Moody. But they did not teach all the truths of the Bible. I get it that there are people of God in other churches. When someone learns of all of the truth of the Bible like the 7th day and turn away from it, they are in disobedience to God. I am not saying we should be judging anyone specifically, this is just the principle of it. When you learn the truth, you become responsible for it. You are also responsible for studying the Bible for the truth. Many will be judged for willful disobedience as well as neglect to take advantage of available knowledge.

Recently, I was involved in community service. We were located right across the street from the church, so we always invited people to come worship with us. However, so no mix ups, we had to point out that we had church on Saturday, because that was the Sabbath of the Bible. Only one person was ever surprised to learn that! Nearly everyone indicated that they knew what the correct Sabbath day was. But they are missing in church on Sabbath mornings.

[B/W Photodude]

5 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

4. And what is YOUR reason for being so quick to put ME down? Perhaps confine your massive intellect and the resulting comments to the discussion at hand, rather than inventing a nefarious motive on my part.

I will tell you, if you tell me why you were so quick to put down Andreasen!

[B/W Photodude]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Some ultra-Orthodox Jews won't go to the top of the Temple Mount for fear of stepping on some ground that used to be under the Most Holy Place.

My ex brother-in-law is an Orthodox rabbi. He now lives in Israel and has the kids to match an Orthodox family. So, along the way I learned some of the habits of the Orthodox. I sometimes wish I had the internal dedication that the Orthodox have to the external requirements to laws. Certainly not saying there is no internal dedication to be clear.

One time his child turned on a radio on the sabbath and it ended up on a loud rock n roll station. Because they do not turn things on or off on the sabbath, they were stuck with the music for the rest of the sabbath day.

There was an Orthodox rabbi I heard of in Pittsburgh who would not shake hands with women. He was afraid he would touch them during their "time" and then he would be unclean for the rest of the day! (Not sure if a trip to the mikveh was involved.)

[B/W Photodude]

6 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

thats an interesting bit of difference. THAT guy irritates me. lol So does Martin Luther. Maybe I am not a conformer, but a transformer??

Spurgeon preached in England during the years before there were likely any SDAs there. I am not sure how he would have responded to the SDA message, but we keep saying God has his in other denominations. And he would have benefited from the SDA health message.

With all the good things Luther did, he had one terrible flaw. He seemed to hate Jews and said some very mean things regarding them. But he did have an amazing effect on the world. 

I also listen to Paul Washer, but I just have to step around the theological differences (state of the dead, etc).

I find Phil Johnson interesting, but he does not like SDAs!

Washer and Johnson are current preachers.

[Lone Ranger]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

similar "nefarious motives" were also pronounced about me, so you are not alone. The "certain prolific poster" seems to be not very welcome in certain corners of the internet. The chickens must be coming home to roost. Maybe I am still in the "outer court" while the accusers are in the inner? Seems someone always has a category to lock me up in.  It is a challenge (to me) to not speak or participate on a public forum, as I have been so ordered to NOT do. lol

really? lol WOW  Its not always about you!! But do carry on...But doo carry on. The drive-bys are somewhat entertaining.

[Lone Ranger]

12 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I will tell you, if you tell me why you were so quick to put down Andreasen!

Um...OK.

3. Andreasen, though a capable Biblical scholar in Adventism, relied too heavily on EGW for a world view, and as such was (as most SDA scholars) an eiseget rather than an exegete.

Shall I use smaller words?

3. Andreasen, though a capable (means able to do the job) Biblical scholar (or student) in Adventism, relied too heavily on EGW for a world view, (a world view is how you understand the world)  and as such was (as most SDA scholars) an eiseget  (one who interprets a text in such a way that it supports their presuppositions, agendas, and biases) rather than an exegete (one who seeks to understand what the text is actually saying)

[Lone Ranger]

Ok so that is something I can totally relate to. It is our Faith that is important, not our doctrine or even our behavior.

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I happen to be a fan of C. H. Spurgeon.

Nice!  I like Charles Stanley, Joseph Prince, Joel Richardson, and Jonathan Cahn a lot, too.  They may not preach what SDA's preach as the whole truth, but they have taught me things we don't discuss in Adventism as well.  As far as I'm concerned, our job is to bring people into saving faith with Jesus; and let deeper Bible study and the Holy Spirit do the rest. 

[B/W Photodude]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

They may not preach what SDA's preach as the whole truth, but they have taught me things we don't discuss in Adventism as well.

I think sometimes we spend a little too much time on our "unique" message and not enough on other very needed topics. I have heard some say over and over again, "you gotta be ready, because Jesus is coming." But they never tell you how that is done! How do you get ready? (This is rhetorical and answer not needed!)

[B/W Photodude]

7 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

As I considered this discussion last night, I realized that it really doesnt matter a hill of beans who I like or do not like. As prophecy moves decisively through the ages, one commentator has said it better than I ever could have:

Well, Paul addressed that very well when some claimed to be baptized by one and others claimed someone else. However, different people speak differently and can appeal differently different people. And the hearers will be touched by some things that won't move someone else. I particularly like speakers who can communicate how this impacts them on a personal level. If not, it just becomes a lecture.

[B/W Photodude]

7 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

A comment by FB Meyer for this passage says it well:

    Strong faith is consistent with very different views of religious truth. The conception that Abel, Enoch or Noah had of so-called Christian truth was very slight; but the faith with which they grasped the scanty truth revealed to them was mighty, soul-transforming and world-moving.

I tend to believe that they had an even greater knowledge of everything "Christian" than we do today. As I recall, Enoch reported knowledge of heavenly things, the people of that time still had angels to talk with in person, and they still had a mental capability that dwarfs anything we are today. We have been in decline for thousands of years and very soon all traces of the image of God will be removed from the people of this earth except those who follow God completely. Ignoring God and/or claiming faith will save us when we do not the will of God is the same as being wicked. 

[B/W Photodude]

Many continue to push out the false idea that EGW is the founder of the SDA church and that other writers spend too much copying her works. Reality is that the founding beliefs of the SDA church were developed by groups of Bible students searching to see what the Scriptures said. Often times, it was after they had developed the position from their study of Scripture that EGW would confirm it as correct. She even reports being unable to participate in these discussions when the Scriptures were intensively search. So, calling the students who intensively studied Scriptures as being "eisegets" is wrong. I suspect that many who distort Scripture with false ideas of what it says or approves of are really eisegets. 

Many will claim that faith is all they need. Doctrine doesn't matter. So, pray tell, which of the doctrines of the SDA church can be tossed out with the trash? 

Given that it is believed that the beliefs of the church are the will of God, to disregard that will is to set yourself up as a god or being more important than God because you can pick and chose what to believe. Paul did speak of the "falling away" (Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thess 2:3) 

[Lone Ranger]

4 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Many will claim that faith is all they need. Doctrine doesn't matter. So, pray tell, which of the doctrines of the SDA church can be tossed out with the trash?

Well, let's see. Pretty much any doctrine Abraham didn't hold to can get trashed.

[hch]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 11:14 AM, JoeMo said:

Throwing EGW into the mix, it may be sufficient.  However, when only looking at scripture, I see no evidence that Jesus waited until 1844 to enter the Most Holy Place.  Scripture clearly states He entered it upon His ascension (to me at least).

The Scriptures are sure (whether we have personally found the evidence in question or not). And Eyewitnesses are what they are.

[B/W Photodude]

8 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

Well, let's see. Pretty much any doctrine Abraham didn't hold to can get trashed.

Kewl! I will start looking for a handmaiden for my wife. She may share her with me.