Christians Need To Stop Assuming LGBT Sin Matters More Than God’s Mercy

[B/W Photodude]

2 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

While "they" MIGHT show up and there ARE  "Some who go to extremes" this has neither been the norm nor common, and such cases are extremely rare if they happen at all. 

I did not say that is a current frequently happening occurrence, but I would not put it past some groups to begin it as they push the envelope more and more. We have already seen extreme events where it should have never occurred such as one transvestite who danced for children (5th graders)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqc3nLZucR4

Or the eight year old boy transvestite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdCXxUxI-WE

The church already has a transgender "elder" in the Hollywood SDA church, the former church of Ryan Bell. An SDA presacher in northern California is all out about his transgender son. 

So, how long will these remain "extremely" rare?

****************************************************

BTW, severe thread drift is occurring as the OP article dealt with churches smoothing over sin before an angry God.

 

[Lone Ranger]

1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

I did not say that is a current frequently happening occurrence, but I would not put it past some groups to begin it as they push the envelope more and more. We have already seen extreme events where it should have never occurred such as one transvestite who danced for children (5th graders)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqc3nLZucR4

Or the eight year old boy transvestite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdCXxUxI-WE

The church already has a transgender "elder" in the Hollywood SDA church, the former church of Ryan Bell. An SDA presacher in northern California is all out about his transgender son. 

So, how long will these remain "extremely" rare?

****************************************************

BTW, severe thread drift is occurring as the OP article dealt with churches smoothing over sin before an angry God.

 

Just my opinion...and

No offence intended...but

With all due respect...

That's nothing more than fear-mongering speculation.

[Gustave]

25 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I wonder what would happen if I said I dont think there is any "hyperbole" in the text at hand here? (Mat 23:9). IMO there is nothing in that text that fits the definition.

I see it as one.

Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews who were very familiar with how their religion was observed. Right at the 1st part of Chapter 23 Jesus clarifies that indeed the Scribes and Pharisees Absolutely had religious Authority - so the instruction was to DO WHAT THEY SAID with the caveat to not DO AS THEY DID. The Scribes and Pharisees weren't practicing what they preached. 

Jesus goes on to describe how many of these Jewish religious Authorities behaved, essentially saying they were ALL SHOW & NO GO. These folks were lording their position OVER the people with their getting the best seats in the house, best hair fringes, cloths, etc. Jesus further says of these fakes that that not only do they not get in - they prevent those who would otherwise get in. 

It's in that context that Jesus makes the statement He does about calling no man Father (or teacher). 

This isn't a condemnation from Jesus  of the Jewish Religious Authority at that time, it was a condemnation of the BAD APPLES. 

It would be shocking for a Jew at that time to hear a teaching like that because of the importance of WHO a person's Father was. Like I demonstrated, the Old Testament is saturated with the importance of tracing ones linage back to this or that Father. 

 

[B/W Photodude]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Uncle Arthur's Bedtime Stories called "Minimizing Milton."

Haven't seen seen one of those in "forever"! Don't remember that story.

[B/W Photodude]

On 3/19/2019 at 11:21 PM, The Wanderer said:

I do get the concern re not calling anyone "Father," and I have seen the official RCC apologetics on that, ...

 

[B/W Photodude]

Methinks maybe Francis is just a little bit holy?!

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I personally object to that KIND of picture, and find myself wishing my name was NOT attached to same. ... Why would you post this, and attach my name to it like that?

Just part of a usual quoting in a forum. No attempt to make you complicit in my deed!

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

IF we have the truth; there is no need for such stuff.

Actually, there was a bit of discussion of the Pope and his name whether he should be called Holy Father, etc. The picture was just too cool for someone somewhere not to make a meme of it. Seemed to fit right in. I tend to like Francis, even if he is the current head of the "sea beast." He is one of the few I actually follow on Twitter. You can see him on Twitter – "@Pontifex".

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Maybe Ill photo shop this and put your face in there instead.

Have fun. 

[Gustave]

9 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

 

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

IMO this is NOT what the text of Mat 23:9 is about at all. Textual evidence for your statement is lacking greatly.

A brief review of the actual meaning of "hyperbole" would be helpful:

Jesus was NOT doing any of these things when He spoke the words included in this text. Why would He? Considering the actual, stated context, Jesus had no need or intention to "over-state" or to "exaggerate" anything. We have to also note that the capital letters or lower case letters for "father" were not "inspired," and were added by the translators. Jesus was speaking the truth in this text, and that truth had no need of "exaggeration" or "embellishments."  A closer look reveals the intended context, and its meaning for Christians today. Adventists cannot use this to "prove" that we are not "allowed" to call anyone "father;" neither can RCC use the text to "justify" calling anyone "Father." Thats not what the text is about at all.

I wouldn't say it's a text we use to justify calling anyone father, it's just a text that we point to that shows you can't take every Scripture "literally". We know the early Church didn't understand Jesus' statement to literally mean to call  no man father any more than the early church understood that to follow Jesus' teaching one had to hate "THEIR" FATHER, MOTHER, SISTER, BROTHER, life, etc. 

 

 

[Gustave]

11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

IMO this is NOT what the text of Mat 23:9 is about at all. Textual evidence for your statement is lacking greatly.

A brief review of the actual meaning of "hyperbole" would be helpful:

Jesus was NOT doing any of these things when He spoke the words included in this text. Why would He? Considering the actual, stated context, Jesus had no need or intention to "over-state" or to "exaggerate" anything. We have to also note that the capital letters or lower case letters for "father" were not "inspired," and were added by the translators. Jesus was speaking the truth in this text, and that truth had no need of "exaggeration" or "embellishments."  A closer look reveals the intended context, and its meaning for Christians today. Adventists cannot use this to "prove" that we are not "allowed" to call anyone "father;" neither can RCC use the text to "justify" calling anyone "Father." Thats not what the text is about at all.

Ordering his listeners to call no man father (which would include their own fathers) was certainly hyperbole. If Jesus' listeners weren't paying attention prior to that statement they certainly would have been when He said that.

Consider the somewhat famous prayer (to Jews) of Daniel the Old Testament Prophet.

Daniel 9,16:  O Lord, according to all thy righteous acts, let thy anger and thy wrath turn away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy hill; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people have become a byword among all who are round about us.

 And here, again, is God referring to the fathers of those who the Scripture was directed at ( who were alive at the time ). 

Ezekiel 36, 27: You shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

What are you saying was "the truth" in the case of Matt 23,9? Do you understand it as standing apart from Verses 1 -8? 

 

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

On 3/23/2019 at 12:44 PM, The Wanderer said:

A few years ago, I posted here on the forum a pic of TW with a Pope Hat photo-shopped onto his head. But thinking back to that, and how it may have affected certain people, its something I regret doing. Gustave took the meme in stride, which he should get some applause for, but even his meme is a stretch. I was surprised to see it.

 

(My cat's name is also Frankie!)

Sometimes the discussions get really picky and I think sometimes the point gets missed. When Jesus said to call no man your father, I very much doubt it had anything to do with disrespecting those who were parents, teachers, religious leaders, etc.

I would more look at that as not seeing this "father" figure as one who determined what we should believe or be interpreting the Bible for us. I think even in his day that must have been a problem as the rabbis determined the religious beliefs of the day.

[B/W Photodude]

On 3/23/2019 at 10:03 AM, Gustave said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, it appeared I posted the lizard pic. I didn't!

[Gustave]

1 minute ago, B/W Photodude said:

OK, it appears I posted the lizard pic. I didn't!

I did that, it’s from the 1st Jurassic Park Movie. That’s what I thought the reference was LoL.

[phkrause]

Here is what EGW has to say about what I posted earlier and read the 3rd paragraph, especially the highlighted portion that I bolded:

“But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, and love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for One is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for One is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called master: for One is your Master, even Christ.” In such plain words the Saviour revealed the selfish ambition that was ever reaching for place and power, displaying a mock humility, while the heart was filled with avarice and envy. When persons were invited to a feast, the guests were seated according to their rank, and those who were given the most honorable place received the first attention and special favors. The Pharisees were ever scheming to secure these honors. This practice Jesus rebuked. {DA 613.1}

He also reproved the vanity shown in coveting the title of rabbi, or master. Such a title, He declared, belonged not to men, but to Christ. Priests, scribes, and rulers, expounders and administrators of the law, were all brethren, children of one Father. Jesus impressed upon the people that they were to give no man a title of honor indicating his control of their conscience or their faith. {DA 613.2}

If Christ were on earth today, surrounded by those who bear the title of “Reverend” or “Right Reverend,” would He not repeat His saying, “Neither be ye called masters: for One is your Master, even Christ”? The Scripture declares of God, “Holy and reverend is His name.” Psalm 111:9. To what human being is such a title befitting? How little does man reveal of the wisdom and righteousness it indicates! How many of those who assume this title are misrepresenting the name and character of God! Alas, how often have worldly ambition, despotism, and the basest sins been hidden under the broidered garments of a high and holy office! The Saviour continued: {DA 613.3}

[Gustave]

The primary beef the establishment had with Jesus was their view that He was attacking their economy. Religious people  would travel to Jerusalem with coins stamped with God's or a Roman Emperor - this would be considered idolatrous to religious Jews and unacceptable tender to purchase a sacrifice (to be used for the forgiveness of sins). Not only did Jesus drive the money changers out of the Temple (who were short changing people) Jesus was forgiving people in the streets - which would have been an absolute shock for a religious Jew to hear (much less see). If sins are being forgiven in the streets by "MEN" than of what value would there have been in making a long difficult and expensive trip to the Temple? This would have absolutely been a major reason Jesus was targeted. 

[Gustave]

26 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I did a study on that once; Ill have to see if I can find it. You are right; it was a major point of conflict at times. I still think the real, underlying cause of all the problems combined, were in direct relation to Jesus' claims as Messiah. It was against "Jewish Law at the time for any human being to make such a claim. And if we do a close searching of pertinent scripture, we would soon see that this was THE root cause of all the other problems. I hope to get back soon to post references.

I would agree with that and to your point the perceived attack against Jewish law (for those who doubted) came when Jesus, right at the start, quoted Isaiah 35. Any observant Jew who heard that heard Jesus say He was God Himself. 

"Say to those who are of a fearful heart “Be strong, fear not Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you [...the blind will see, the lame will walk, etc, etc. ]".

The Jews, for a long time, had been waiting to see that happen so when Jesus attributed Isaiah 35 as speaking of Him ( Luke 7, 18-23 ) this would have caused quite a stir in the religious community. 

Jews understood that the Levitical Priest (through God) forgave sins "at the temple" provided the proper hoops were jumped through and here was a "man" who was claiming to be God that was forgiving sins in the street bypassing the Law of Moses. Shocking indeed to a 1st century Jew. 

It wasn't that the Jewish Religious Authority didn't have the juice to make things easier for the people - they could have made it easier for folks (adjusted or relaxed the Law) but as Jesus said, even though they SAT ON MOSES' SEAT they wouldn't lift a finger to make the practice of their religion easier for the people. It was a "top down" system that made it easy for the greedy to take advantage of the little people. I believe this is what Jesus was referencing in Matthew 23, 4 and Luke 11,46. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 3/27/2019 at 11:51 AM, Gustave said:

I would agree with that and to your point the perceived attack against Jewish law (for those who doubted) came when Jesus, right at the start, quoted Isaiah 35. Any observant Jew who heard that heard Jesus say He was God Himself. 

"Say to those who are of a fearful heart “Be strong, fear not Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you [...the blind will see, the lame will walk, etc, etc. ]".

The Jews, for a long time, had been waiting to see that happen so when Jesus attributed Isaiah 35 as speaking of Him ( Luke 7, 18-23 ) this would have caused quite a stir in the religious community. 

Jews understood that the Levitical Priest (through God) forgave sins "at the temple" provided the proper hoops were jumped through and here was a "man" who was claiming to be God that was forgiving sins in the street bypassing the Law of Moses. Shocking indeed to a 1st century Jew. 

It wasn't that the Jewish Religious Authority didn't have the juice to make things easier for the people - they could have made it easier for folks (adjusted or relaxed the Law) but as Jesus said, even though they SAT ON MOSES' SEAT they wouldn't lift a finger to make the practice of their religion easier for the people. It was a "top down" system that made it easy for the greedy to take advantage of the little people. I believe this is what Jesus was referencing in Matthew 23, 4 and Luke 11,46. 

The topic begins with the subject on the LBGT and I felt like reading, how the church folk view and treat them. At least, that’s my understanding! I feel why this is still a major problem with church-going folks has to do with Lev 20:13 and the word abomination. However, Israel was told that certain unclean animals were an abomination, putting children in the fire, and lying also was an abomination to YAHWEH! IsraEL was told how to deal with these problems but instruction included all sins or acts that were openly committed which also include adultery. Well we do not see anyone stoning any adulterer today, do we? Today we do not see those who commit adultery treated like we do the LBGT. The old saying anyone without sin cast the first stone! But let me be clear, I do not want an open adulterer, liar, child molester or an LBGT standing as a leader while openly sinning. Sin of any kind should never be an outward display. The problem with the LBGT that is even different from the adulterer is the society has given this particular sin a social and psychological excuse to sin!

Society has made an excuse that this sin you are born with and it is acceptable. But the truths of the matter all are born in sin and shaped in iniquity. Each and every one of us has desires that we inherited from our parents on both side! We all seem to overlook this part of YAHWEH’S Command: “…visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate ME;” Ex 20:5

 So that is my take on the topic and what I understood!

Be bless everyone!

[JoeMo]

5 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

We all seem to overlook this part of YAHWEH’S Command: “…visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate ME;” Ex 20:5

Let's not overlook what Yahweh told us through Ezeckiel:

“Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? (EZ 18:19-23)

He says similar things in Chapter 33.

It is true that the results of iniquity of the father or son can be visited upon the other.

You also forgot to quote the rest of the passage:
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." (Ex. 20:5-6)

Seems like good shows his mercy to those who love Him for a lot longer than He shows His wrath to those who don't.

[stinsonmarri]

2 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

You also forgot to quote the rest of the passage:
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." (Ex. 20:5-6)

I did not forget, Joe I was only dealing with excusing a sin because of society and the problem we face with it. We should never mistreat anyone due to sin because all of us came into this world due to the iniquity of our forefathers. Yes, showing mercy and love to those who keep HIS Commandments so we cannot excuse the adulterer, the liar nor the LGBT in sinning even though we should not act like we are better. In other, words hate the sin love the sinner! There will not be liars, adultery, murderers, molesters or LGBT in Heaven if they still continue to do these things, but if they change just like Rahab who was a harlot; then by faith they too will be saved!

Blessings!

[JoeMo]

2 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

There will not be liars, adultery, murderers, molesters or LGBT in Heaven if they still continue to do these things, but if they change just like Rahab who was a harlot; then by faith they too will be saved!

Could it be that they (or should I say we) will be cleansed of these sins when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye if they have thrown themselves at the feet of Jesus - begging for mercy due to sins that are very difficult to get rid of?  All have sinned and fallen short; yet just like the leopard, we cannot change our spots.

I am a sinner; and no matter how "good" I am, I still find sin in my life.  Sure, by strength of will I am under the illusion that I have avoided all sin for a while, but upon examination of conscience, I never am free from sin except by the grace and mercy of Jesus. I may not be part of the LGBTQ+ demographic; but I have my own sticky sins that I still deal with; and sin is sin.

[stinsonmarri]

50 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Could it be that they (or should I say we) will be cleansed of these sins when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye if they have thrown themselves at the feet of Jesus - begging for mercy due to sins that are very difficult to get rid of?  All have sinned and fallen short; yet just like the leopard, we cannot change our spots.

Joe, you know how I feel about you, but we have to stop sinning period. We cannot be sealed unless we stop. We do have a power and that is choice! By beholden, we do change. YAHSHUA became flesh and HE also was divine with powers that HE could not use. HE was the second Adam because HE was tempted. Lucifer pretended to be an angel of light, but his words gave him away. "If" An angel of light would have known YAHSHUA was THE SON of THE MOST HIGH!!!!! YAHSHUA could have turned those stones into bread, we do not have the power to do that HE did! YAHSHUA never ever used HIS DIVINE POWERS and HE prayed to HIS FATHER, HE like us can choose not to sin that is the only power HE used what we have also! The Bible said, "choose you this day whom you will serve!" You cannot keep serving THE FATHER and keep sinning, you must listen, obey and STOP!!!! Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and others who are in Heaven all stop sinning. You cannot look in THE FACE of THE FATHER with sin period, that is why YAHSHUA stood between Satan and THE MOST HIGH! Satan and his angels had to leave Heaven they could not continue to stay with sin!

Closing, sinners would not be comfortable in Heaven because of YAHWEH  and HIS Law! They would not be happy, this is real because those here on earth are not happy! People who have changed their lives and come around those who haven't there is an uncomfortable situation. You can feel it!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

14 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

"God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world. He sent his Son to save the world through him. (John 3:17)

Lets NOT stop at John 3;16!

I am sorry everyone, but the Bible did not stop at John 3:16! If anyone of you that have children are you going to let them do what they want in your home? Changing is when you stop! If you come to a red light or stop sign does it mean to keep going? It appears we take salvation for granted that once YAHSHUA redeemed the world that's it! I now seem clear why people can justify in America to break laws and those that say this is not right then we are judging them. It is alright to right to kill and think, ok I just change when HE returned with just a twinkling of an eye! I hear many of you think you are powerless and you will keep sinning and it's alright, you mean well, so you can be saved? All the wicked should be able to be saved they just say hey I couldn't stop myself, now just use your powers to change me so I can be saved! How does that sound?

So Cain, Nimrod, King Saul and others like them will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, right? They shouldn't be judged? Hitler shouldn't be judged, those who committed chattel slavery shouldn't be judged or those who took and destroy the Indians for their land. All you have to do just pray and try to be good, but if we slip every now and then, we tried! Just don't judge us because YAHSHUA died for everybody and we all should be saved and go to Heaven! I am totally at a lost here why was Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed and what was the reason to bring on a worldwide flood? I am at a loss!

The confuse one!

[stinsonmarri]

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

That is an excellent way to put it!

I still didn't understand do we believe that we must stop sinning to be saved?

Blessings!

[thx4mercy]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

the problem usually happens when we reach a point where we try to say that we do not sin.

 

Are there really people who think they no longer sin?  I can't imagine thinking that.

[JoeMo]

On 4/7/2019 at 9:25 AM, stinsonmarri said:

So Cain, Nimrod, King Saul and others like them will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, right? They shouldn't be judged? Hitler shouldn't be judged, those who committed chattel slavery shouldn't be judged or those who took and destroy the Indians for their land. All you have to do just pray and try to be good, but if we slip every now and then, we tried! Just don't judge us because YAHSHUA died for everybody and we all should be saved and go to Heaven! I am totally at a lost here why was Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed and what was the reason to bring on a worldwide flood? I am at a loss!

I cannot say who will or will not be saved.  While from outside observance these people indeed did not repent; but God looks it the heart.  I hate sin; but I fall victim to it frequently.  Many times, I don't even realize my sin until after the fact.  When my kids didn't follow my rules when they were living at home, they sinned.  When my reaction to their disobedience caused me to overreact and show them wrath rather than love, I sinned.  When it's Sabbath and my mind wanders away from spiritual things, I sin.  When my wife and I argue over stupid stuff, we both sin.  Unfortunately, it is usually after the fact that the realization of our sin hits us.  What can we do but immediately repent!  Acts of obedience and repentance aren't a once and done thing.  They must take place daily - even several times a day.  We are lost when we fall and stay down.  To show saving faith, we must get up after every fall.

Stopping sin is a result of grace; not a prerequisite for receiving it.

Marri, thank you for your Christian love and gently encouragement.  I offer the same to you, my sister.  God's blessings be upon you.

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I still didn't understand do we believe that we must stop sinning to be saved?

I think we must believe that sin is evil and wrong.  But will we KNOW when we have totally quit sinning?  I agree with Wanderer, as soon as we say we have no sin, we sin by thinking we have arrived - we no longer need a Savior to deliver us from sin if we don't sin.  John says it like this:  "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."  (1 John 1:8). Thankfully he follows this verse with: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).