Variations in SDA Belief

[Lone Ranger]

Brings tears to me eyes, JoeMo.

SDA isolate themselves by living in a 19th century world and isolating everyone else. But we are all Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:13 "Is Christ divided?"

[R. G. White]

1 hour ago, Lone Ranger said:

This statement reveals a lack of awareness of the current condition of the Catholic Church, and the changes ushered in by Vatican II.

 

This comment also reflects remarks by JoeMo, so I shall respond briefly. Anyone familiar with what SDA evangelists commonly teach from the Scriptures will know about Revelation 13 and its "sea beast" that alludes back to Daniel 7, and is obviously the same papacy as the bloody "little horn." They will know the passage about the "deadly wound" and its eventual healing. We have always interpreted this as a prophetic prediction that the papacy as a persecuting power will someday come back with a vengeance, regardless of how benign it may seem to be at present. Some may have opinions to the contrary, but I believe that the Scriptures, as taught by Seventh-day Adventists, will be exonerated in the end.

[pierrepaul]

1 hour ago, Lone Ranger said:

The (pre-21st century) view that "The Catholics" are going to persecute God's people is out-dated, and no longer valid. A simple reading of the Biblical text (ie: the characteristics of the Beast/persecuting power) and basic knowledge of the RCC will immediately debunk that theory.  There is another group that is a much better fit. This is, however, a discussion for another thread.

I would agree. I would also suggest that the persecutor of the saints might again change identity before earth's history closes.

[Lone Ranger]

R.G.White:

Fair enough. But please humor me and delineate the characteristics of the Beast/persecutor as given in Scripture, and the characteristics of the papacy that make it a contender for the role of persecutor of God's people. 

[JoeMo]

55 minutes ago, R. G. White said:

Anyone familiar with what SDA evangelists commonly teach from the Scriptures will know about Revelation 13 and its "sea beast" that alludes back to Daniel 7, and is obviously the same papacy as the bloody "little horn." They will know the passage about the "deadly wound" and its eventual healing.

Just because SDA evangelists have been preaching it for over 150 years doesn't make it true.  The sea beast isn't "obviously" the papacy; although I will concede it might be).  Concerning the "deadly wound" which was healed, another alternative could the Ottoman Empire (aka the Islamic Caliphate) which was officially dissolved in the 1920's; and seems to be roaring back in the same areas it ruled for over 1,000 years; and seems to be spreading all over the world faster than any other religion.  Muslims will outnumber Christians by 2050 by birth rate alone; earlier with conversions. It's deadly wound is healed as well.

IMHO, it is time for Christians to quit criticizing and attacking each other and unite under our common beliefs in Christ an Creator, the Son of God, and Savior.  If we continue to fight each other instead of on the increasing hostile acts against Christian in general that are rapidly developing all over the world (including in North America and Western Europe), we will be overwhelmed in the end times.  In fact, scripture says the church will be overwhelmed:

“In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. (Dan. 8:23-25) 

"The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them." (Rev .13:6-7)

SDA's will not be the only ones saved in the end times; and the Sabbath will not be the major end-time issue.

[R. G. White]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

SDA's will not be the only ones saved in the end times; and the Sabbath will not be the major end-time issue.

If we are going to pat ourselves on the back and attack other Christians, as you say, then of course we are in for a rude awakening. The deep issue will be Christian sincerity and a vital connection with Christ. SDAs come and SDAs go, and God is well able to use coming events to weed out the complacent hypocrites among us and bring in His own, if He wants it to be the SDAs who are saved in the end. For those of us who think we are standing, let us take heed lest we fall. There are no shortcuts to salvation, and Jesus is the Door. The Sabbath is one of His Ten Words, a moral requirement. So, if it is the commandment especially controverted in the last days, of course God could use it as THE test, if He wishes to do so.

On some of these details, people may have differing opinions if they wish. We are going to see how all of this plays out, and God knows those who are His. He will save us, no matter how mistaken we may be on non-essential points.

JoeMo, I have not previously seen you appear so dogmatic in your opposition to SDA teaching. What's the real issue? If it's arrogance and censoriousness, on our part, I will posit that doctrine is not the problem. We are not converted to Christ in the first place.

Edited May 29, 2019 by R. G. White
Clarification

[Lone Ranger]

7 minutes ago, R. G. White said:

 However, JoeMo, I have not previously seen you appear so dogmatic in your opposition to SDA teaching. What's the real issue?

Um... for what it's worth... this is not more stringent or dogmatic than other posts.

IMO that statement mischaracterizes JoeMo. He is a fair supporter of SDA, it's just that he has a (more?) balanced view of things. 

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, R. G. White said:

JoeMo, I have not previously seen you appear so dogmatic in your opposition to SDA teaching.

I apologize if I am coming across dogmatically; I don't mean to. I am passionate about keeping our eyes open to the bigger picture.  The SDA perception of the end of time is NOT the only plausible, Biblically sound scenario.  If we loyally stick with a 150 year-old interpretation of prophecy that does not match with the signs of the times, we are stuck with believing that either the traditional interpretation is wrong or this is not the end times.

For example, I am personally committed to observing the 4th Commandment; and I pray that others sincere Christians would observe it as well.  However, if we are indeed saved by grace and not the Law, and they don't see it, then who am I to say that those who don't (or didn't) keep it are condemned? IMHO, if they truly love Jesus and trust who He says He is, they will be in His Kingdom and readily accept any rules He places on being there.  I base that on me not being a trinitarian; but if when I get to the Kingdom, Jesus tells me the Trinity is for real, I will have absolutely no problem repenting of my mistake; because I truly love and trust my Lord; and will accept without hesitation any doctrinal misconceptions that I may have.

Salvation in the end times will not be limited to what one believes about the Sabbath.  One can be a great Sabbath keeper and a poor Christian otherwise.  Salvation in the end times won't be about the Sabbath or what you believe as much as who you worship - the gods of this world, or the God of Heaven and His Son - with no compromise and no backing down.

[R. G. White]

27 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I apologize if I am coming across dogmatically; I don't mean to. I am passionate about keeping our eyes open to the bigger picture.  The SDA perception of the end of time is NOT the only plausible, Biblically sound scenario.  If we loyally stick with a 150 year-old interpretation of prophecy that does not match with the signs of the times, we are stuck with believing that either the traditional interpretation is wrong or this is not the end times.

For example, I am personally committed to observing the 4th Commandment; and I pray that others sincere Christians would observe it as well.  However, if we are indeed saved by grace and not the Law, and they don't see it, then who am I to say that those who don't (or didn't) keep it are condemned? IMHO, if they truly love Jesus and trust who He says He is, they will be in His Kingdom and readily accept any rules He places on being there.  I base that on me not being a trinitarian; but if when I get to the Kingdom, Jesus tells me the Trinity is for real, I will have absolutely no problem repenting of my mistake; because I truly love and trust my Lord; and will accept without hesitation any doctrinal misconceptions that I may have.

Salvation in the end times will not be limited to what one believes about the Sabbath.  One can be a great Sabbath keeper and a poor Christian otherwise.  Salvation in the end times won't be about the Sabbath or what you believe as much as who you worship - the gods of this world, or the God of Heaven and His Son - with no compromise and no backing down.

Thanks for clarifying. The idea, well supported by the Scriptures, that the Sabbath will be mankind's final test, is predicated on the prospect of the issue someday becoming so clear to every single individual that there will not be the slightest valid excuse for getting it wrong. At that time, a choice regarding the Sabbath would be a choice of loyalties, an act of worship -- a final choice. And only God will know when this is the case. Never in this life have we been called upon to judge anyone. Trying to superimpose such a scenario onto today's conditions simply doesn't work. So the SDA position seems narrow to you because you do not yet understand it. Our pioneers, such as Joseph Bates, James White, and Ellen White were all about bringing people to a deeper experience with God. They were extremely broad in their outlook. Any narrow, selfish version of their teachings, that we may find among SDAs today, is nothing more or less than a caricature of the real thing. Some accidentally falsify the true thrust and meaning of the message by their lives and attitudes, and there are probably some who hate the truth, and will gladly misrepresent it on purpose to deceive. I pray that I may not fall into either of these two categories.

So I absolutely agree with you that it will be all about whom or what you worship. It remains to be seen how the prophetic details will end up playing into this. We haven't the slightest ground for saying that those who do not yet "get" the Sabbath are condemned. This is not yet the end times, as far as the final crisis is concerned, but things can change very rapidly. Again, I believe the best preparation is a real experience in justification by faith.

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, R. G. White said:

So the SDA position seems narrow to you because you do not yet understand it.

Oh; I understand it.  I have studied it thoroughly since the early 1970's; and it was a Biblically sound interpretation in it's time.  But times have changed and knowledge is increased; and there are other reasonable  Biblically sound scenarios involving much more than just Sabbath worship and the RCC.  I'm not saying the SDA message is false; I'm just saying it's not the only reasonable and Biblically sound interpretation; and we would be remiss not to keep our minds and hearts open.

6 hours ago, R. G. White said:

I absolutely agree with you that it will be all about whom or what you worship. It remains to be seen how the prophetic details will end up playing into this. We haven't the slightest ground for saying that those who do not yet "get" the Sabbath are condemned. This is not yet the end times, as far as the final crisis is concerned, but things can change very rapidly. Again, I believe the best preparation is a real experience in justification by faith.

This is something we can absolutely agree on.

[Lone Ranger]

16 hours ago, R. G. White said:

 The idea, well supported by the Scriptures, that the Sabbath will be mankind's final test, is predicated on the prospect of the issue someday becoming so clear to every single individual that there will not be the slightest valid excuse for getting it wrong. At that time, a choice regarding the Sabbath would be a choice of loyalties, an act of worship -- a final choice.

I must differ with this view.

A)   IMO, In the Christian Era (IOW "for Christians") the Sabbath was not, is not, and will not be, a test of any loyalty/worship.

Eph. 2:8, 9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹ not by works, so that no one can boast."

John 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

B )  The idea of the Sabbath being a test is an SDA interpretation/"construct," and there are other equally valid and biblically supportable views. It relies heavily on the "proof-text" method of biblical interpretation and ignores the fundamental message of Scripture. As such, it is not  "well supported by the Scriptures." (CAVEAT: If "Scripture" is understood to mean Judeo-Christian Canon AND SOP, then yes, the idea is well supported. However, if "Scripture" is understood in the normal sense of Judeo-Christian Canon only, then no, it is NOT well supported.)

That being said, the role and function of "seventh-day sabbath" and its importance/etc. is less clear-cut than adherents would wish. In my experience, most 7th-dayers are unaware of the argument and support used for 1st-day worship. (This would be another thread.)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote

In the Christian Era (IOW "for Christians") the Sabbath was not, is not, and will not be, a test of any loyalty/worship.

Faith without works is dead.  "Loving one another" without helping those very people is the height of arrogance.  God loves us... and He doesn't just sit on His laurels, thinking that it's just good enough; indeed, He is doing good works for people all the live-long day.  

That said, some people do seem to hold the *keeping* of the Sabbath as a "look at me" banner of self-pride.  That's just annoying, presumptive, and pharisaical.  Those people may be well-meaning, but they're not people I find particularly fun to be around.

It's imperative for one to do what God has instructed, insofar we understand those instructions.  (And really, He's asked for precious little from us...)  For those who, through no fault of their own, don't understand the importance of the Sabbath, God won't hold them accountable.  But for those who simply *choose* to ignore God's instructions, well.......

And, btw, God (being the Almighty God that He is), can choose whatever He likes to test His people — including honoring the Sabbath.  (And *honoring* the Sabbath can be done in a myriad of ways, according to one's convictions.)

just imho

[Lone Ranger]

20 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

And, btw, God (being the Almighty God that He is), can choose whatever He likes to test His people...

Yess.....ish. However (being the Almighty God that He is) he has confined himself to certain "tests."

The difficulty for us is supporting from Scripture those things WE see as "His" tests.

[Lone Ranger]

2 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

It's imperative for one to do what God has instructed, insofar we understand those instructions.  (And really, He's asked for precious little from us...)  For those who, through no fault of their own, don't understand the importance of the Sabbath, God won't hold them accountable.  But for those who simply *choose* to ignore God's instructions, well.......

IMO...

I believe there is another class of people regarding views on the sabbath, that being those legitimate, sincere God-fearing Christians who HAVE studied the question, sincerely and deeply,  and have NOT come to the conclusion that God requires 7th-day observance, based on evidence they feel is stronger. 

[Aliensanctuary]

Rather than focus on denominationalism, I think we should focus on:

What is the Kingdom of YHVH like, and how will we conduct ourselves there if chosen to join?

Both Moses and Jesus Christ taught us about the Kingdom.

From the scriptures we can see that there will be a baptism, or bath, in the River of Life during which the Spirit of YHVH will transform us into new, purified beings. There, we will undergo a memory wipe  by the Spirit, making it impossible to recall any of the bad or sad things that happened in our previous lives.

There, the Laws of the Kingdom will be downloaded into our minds by the Spirit, making it impossible for us to transgress them, forever. This is the New Covenant. All record of our previous transgressions will be permanently erased.

There, we will receive new bodies, perhaps quite youthful. which is the born again experience.

There, our sense of Self will be deleted, making the needs of others just as important as our own.

There, in the Kingdom, YHVH, via his Spirit, will read our minds and know what we need before we ask. YHVH will tell us where to go and what to do, telepathically.

This life is all muddled and murky with its man-made rules and corruption and faithlessness, but in the Kingdom everything will be crystal clear.

Teaching humans about the Kingdom was the main mission of Jesus Christ, and that should be the main mission of all of his followers. We can try our best to follow his teachings: some of us may be more successful than others.

In the end, we must love the LORD our God with our whole heart, do our best to follow his teachings, not worry so much about denominations and churches and religions, but share these teachings with others. Maybe only a few seeds will sprout and take root, but that is our mission, to sow the seeds of the Kingdom.

 

[JoeMo]

8 hours ago, Aliensanctuary said:

Rather than focus on denominationalism, I think we should focus on:

What is the Kingdom of YHVH like, and how will we conduct ourselves there if chosen to join?

I agree with this.  I would also add that in this life we should learn the Heavenly Family business as well as the Family values - part of which is unconditional love, trust, and dependence on our Creator.

8 hours ago, Aliensanctuary said:

There, the Laws of the Kingdom will be downloaded into our minds by the Spirit, making it impossible for us to transgress them, forever.

I disagree with this.  We will have a free will throughout eternity.  IMHO, we are born sinners in this age - we are genetically predisposed to sin.  We sin because we are sinners; we are not sinners because we sin.  Part of our rebirth in the spirit will be to have a genetic predisposal to NOT sin.  We will have the free will to sin or not sin; but the saved will never choose to sin.  Just my opinion.

[B/W Photodude]

On 5/30/2019 at 3:34 PM, Lone Ranger said:

I believe there is another class of people regarding views on the sabbath, that being those legitimate, sincere God-fearing Christians who HAVE studied the question, sincerely and deeply,  and have NOT come to the conclusion that God requires 7th-day observance, based on evidence they feel is stronger. 

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 16:25

[Lone Ranger]

3 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 16:25

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor. 10: 12

[B/W Photodude]

Just now, Lone Ranger said:

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor. 10: 12

Not really related.

[Lone Ranger]

Just now, B/W Photodude said:

Not really related.

Depends on your perspective. 

[JoeMo]

We are all responsible individually for how we relate to God.  It is not the responsibility of a denomination to instruct us how to do so. It's obvious to me that different people and cultures relate to scripture differently.  If this were not so, there would not be thousands of Christian denominations.  For me, Adventism come closest to how I want to relate to God.  For my siblings, it is still Catholicism.  For my daughter and her husband, it's Calvary Chapel.  Although I won't say a rosary, I have no problem otherwise worshiping with any of them.

I would continue to attend an SDA Church even if I was disfellowshipped.

[Aliensanctuary]

The New Covenant is having the Laws of the Kingdom written on our hearts. The Spirit of YHVH will make sure that humans will no longer transgress these laws, otherwise, evil will once again rise up and the cycle will continue.

In the next life, humans will be willingly obedient servants with no sense of Self. We will accept this arrangement with informed consent.

[JoeMo]

7 hours ago, Aliensanctuary said:

The Spirit of YHVH will make sure that humans will no longer transgress these laws,

If we lose our free will, we will cease to be the sentient divine imagers that we were created to be.  Without our free will, we are simply robots fueled by vegeburger and broccoli.  If we are "programmed" to love, trust and obey, are we really voluntarily following God?

[Aliensanctuary]

Adam and Eve were created to be obedient servants.

Obviously, humans can't handle free will, hence, in the next life, our sense of Self will no longer exist. Remember "Die to Self"?

The Kingdom of YHVH is not about human free will, but about order and obedience. Humans will love YHVH because he will take care of them by providing work, food, shelter, and health, forever. By joining the Kingdom, they have already agreed to these conditions, including the loss of individuality. Their jobs will be to help YHVH carry out his missions.

As Scripture states, the Spirit will prevent us from transgressing the Laws of the Kingdom. It is not a matter of choice whether or not to obey these laws.

[JoeMo]

9 hours ago, Aliensanctuary said:

As Scripture states, the Spirit will prevent us from transgressing the Laws of the Kingdom. It is not a matter of choice whether or not to obey these laws.

I disagree.  Programmed obedience is not obedience at all - it's either slavery or a computer program.  Love and obedience must always a free-choice option if we are indeed made in the image of our Creator. I don't want to be an immortal robot.  If I have no sense of self, what do I have a sense of?

satan thinks that the only way to truly express free will is through rebellion.  God thinks the only way to truly express free will is by voluntarily putting aside self out of love for Him and those around us.

Some think satan was trying to prove to Jesus that He didn't even have a free will.  He dared Jesus to jump off of a high precipice to commit suicide.  satan claimed that God's angels would immediately intervene to ensure that Jesus would NOT kill Himself.  satan ultimately lost that debate.