Pope Francis Tells Christians Not to Try to Convert Nonbelievers

[BlessedMan]

22 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

Thank You BlessedMan: Amid all of the world crisis with the coronavirus, it will be love like what you provided that will make us steadfast and strong. I truly will cherish these words of endearment.
May YAHWEH richly bless and keep you always!

 

 

 

1

You are re always welcome. :)

[stinsonmarri]

6 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

There is a problem in the following story related to converting others. Circle the errors!

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/does-pope-francis-repudiate-the-great-commission

Photodude: That was a very interesting article. However, I agree that it is our character that should assist in leading others to the truth. It appears that most get faith and truth mixed up. Faith is:

 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Hab 2:4 

It is truth that gives us faith to change and become more like THE FATHER! You see if you do not understand what truth is you think that you should not approach a person that doesn't know the truth. We now come to a new trick that Satan is doing, saying now you cannot convert someone or you are forcing that person from what he used to believe. That again is trying to stop truth and putting down conversion. We do not convert, THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES! We present and the heart becomes convicted and then comes conversion. It is a process and the mind must choose to hear and receive the message of truth! Thanks for the article!

Blessings!

[JoeMo]

On 3/16/2020 at 4:29 PM, stinsonmarri said:

That was a very interesting article. However, I agree that it is our character that should assist in leading others to the truth.

Jesus had the most attractive and perfect character in the history of humanity; yet He only garnered about 72 disciples over 3-1/2 years.  Peter converted 3,000 on the day of Pentecost by his preaching inspired by the Holy Spirit. While good character is a good witness, I think good teaching and the Holy Spirit are just as important (if not more so) than good character.

[stinsonmarri]

6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Jesus had the most attractive and perfect character in the history of humanity; yet He only garnered about 72 disciples over 3-1/2 years.  Peter converted 3,000 on the day of Pentecost by his preaching inspired by the Holy Spirit. While good character is a good witness, I think good teaching and the Holy Spirit are just as important (if not more so) than good character.

Joe: I was explaining to BlessedMan that it is our character but thru faith. This implied our character has become like YAHSHUA. By beholden HIM we become change. Peter also have to show THE CHARACTER of YAHSHUA in him. When Peter stood up they could see and also hear the truth.

But seek ye first HIS Kingdom and RIGHTEOUSNESS; and all these things shall be added unto you. Mat 6:33

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Mat 5:20  

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed YAHWEH, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Rom 4:3  

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: Rom 4:11

That is the righteousness that the Adams were giving to them when the were created. That righteousness is apart of our character that why change. Peter receive this character in the Garden of Gethsemane after he denied YAHSHUA!  It then when he became converted and from that day his character changed more and more until we stop sinning and become seal by THE HOLY SPIRIT. When become converted it is a process of being empowered and strengthen by THE HOLY SPIRIT! We will have power from on HIGH once we are sealed. That is what I was referring to. That we don't desire to do evil as we draw closer to THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of YAHSHUA and we become seal.

Blessings!

 

[BlessedMan]

4 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

But seek ye first HIS Kingdom and RIGHTEOUSNESS; and all these things shall be added unto you. Mat 6:33

amen

Quote

Mat 6:25  "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?
Mat 6:26  Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?
Mat 6:27  Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?
Mat 6:28  "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.
Mat 6:29  Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.
Mat 6:30  If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith?
Mat 6:31  So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
Mat 6:32  For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.
Mat 6:33  But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

 

[BlessedMan]

On 1/17/2020 at 7:53 PM, B/W Photodude said:

ROME — Pope Francis told Christian high school students this weekend they should respect people of other faiths and not attempt to convert them to Christianity, insisting “we are not living in the times of the crusades.”

Asked by one of the students Friday how a Christian should treat people of other faiths or no faith, the pope said that “we are all the same, all children of God” and that true disciples of Jesus do not proselytize.

https://www.breitbart.com/faith/2019/12/22/pope-francis-tells-christians-not-to-try-to-convert-nonbelievers/

 

[B/W Photodude]

Pope Francis again said, “Proselytism among Christians, therefore, in itself, is a grave sin.”

The pope said Christian unity is “a Path,” that despite theological differences there is a “practical ecumenism” in which Christians work together on social problems. Unity, he said, is walking together, and for this reason “every form of proselytism among Christians is sinful.”

https://ktfnews.com/pope-francis-takes-aim-soul-winning/

“Religious distortions, yes. For example, all religions have fundamentalist groups. All of them, we do too. And they destroy, starting from their fundamentalism. But these are small religious groups that have distorted and have ‘sickened’ their religion, and as a result they fight, they wage war, or they cause division in communities, which is a form of war. 

Previously Pope Francis described fundamentalists as those who “rigidly” keep the commandments of God, those who believe in absolute truth, and those who refuse to unite in ecumenism. 

These “small groups,” those who cause division, according to Pope Francis deserve no rights to freedom of speech or the press. 

https://www.prophesyagain.org/single-post/2016/12/13/Pope-Francis-Says-“Small-Group”-Deserves-No-Freedom-of-Speech-and-Press

Pope Francis does not believe that churches have a right to freedom of speech out side of the Catholic church. We are all just "protestors" or we who are Protestants used to be. As one person said, "the protest is over!" While none of the end time persecutions are happening at present, you can see that the groundwork in thought is being laid for these predicted end time laws and persecutions to happen. AS it says in Scripture - "Watch & Pray"

[BlessedMan]

1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

These “small groups,” those who cause division, according to Pope Francis deserve no rights to freedom of speech or the press. 

well, we could talk about how he causes the very divisions he decries;  and history bears that out very well. However, I suspect there are more essential things to address these days. he will never stop doing the damage he is doing, and continuing on from his predecessors. When that guy says the word "ecumenical" he simply means Roman Catholic. His constant tirades against "those Protestants" has been noticed. Its all in God's hands.

Edited March 26, 2020 by BlessedMan
grammar

[phkrause]

18 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Pope Francis again said, “Proselytism among Christians, therefore, in itself, is a grave sin.”

How can that be a grave sin? When Jesus himself said to take the message to all the world!!

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

How can that be a grave sin? When Jesus himself said to take the message to all the world!!

According to the RCC, we cannot have a direct relationship with Jesus, but can only have one with him thru the RCC church! The church is our mediator with Jesus. Guess we can ignore that taking the message to the world. 

[BlessedMan]

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

How can that be a grave sin? When Jesus himself said to take the message to all the world!!

Our relationship with Jesus, according to him, needs Papal supervision. And he wonders why there is "divison," but we need to realize that The Holy Spirit always uses said divisions to do His greatest work, we are united in diversity, in Christ and through the Pope Spirit :

Quote

1Co 11:19  No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

Jesus doesnt see the "division" He sees US!

[phkrause]

I do understand what you both are saying, I guess I'm just disagreeing with the Pope!!

[BlessedMan]

2 minutes ago, phkrause said:

I do understand what you both are saying, I guess I'm just disagreeing with the Pope!!

I dont want to disrespect the man; but it would appear that many also disagree with him.

[BlessedMan]

On 3/27/2020 at 6:44 PM, phkrause said:

I do understand what you both are saying, I guess I'm just disagreeing with the Pope!!

A Few Thoughts On Freedom Of Religious Expression

Canada has a rocky history when it comes to religion, in general, and to anti-semitism/hate more specifically. In the 1920s, the KKK in Canada was apparently very strongly supported by various Canadian Protestants; as the rhetoric of the Canadian version of the KKK resonated very well with The Orange Order, an anti-semite organization which I am sure would be banned today. Or, at least, very unwelcome.  It was especially in Saskatchewan that Canadian KKK were sprung from; but in Canada they were always much different that the US counter-part. Here in Canada, it was mostly anti-Catholic, and anti-immigrant. So a bit of similarity, but also some differences. It would appear the the KKK in Saskatchewan were most active in the 1930s. I think they were even behind a bill then which was to prohibit religious symbols and garb. And very obviously aimed at Roman Catholic crucifixes, and nuns habits. But has this kind of sentiment really gone away with all of modernity's classic anti-hate legislation? Apparently, Quebec seems quite comfortable with similar anti-religious legislation, apparently aimed at Muslims, in particular.

"the CAQ government tabled Bill 21 on March 28, 2019, entitled "An Act respecting the laicity of the State". The bill, since made law, bans public workers in positions of "authority" from wearing religious symbols, specifically while they are on duty. According to the text of the bill, the laicity of the state is defined by a neutral religious stance, keeping state and religious affairs apart, as well as promoting equality and freedom of conscience and religion among citizens"  SOURCE

Quote

In the 1930s, Adrien Arcand, an ardent Roman Catholic, founded the Parti national social chrétien. He promoted Nazism in Canada and “portrayed Hitler as the champion of Christianity.”27 (Buckingham, Janet Epp. Fighting over God: A Legal and Political (McGill-Queen's Studies in the History of Religion) (p. 94). MQUP. Kindle Edition).

And so it can be seen throughout Canadian history how the state and various religious have always been on a collision course. Such brinkmanship has never really gone away.

Canadian History does reflect a wide variety of responses to any public villification of any religion. Even the weird ones. I once showed an Amazing Facts video to a New Age individual,  and a few days later when I asked: "what did you think?" the answer I got was just one word: "divisive."

The Canadian Conundrum is that "freedom of religion" is virtually guaranteed in The Canadian Charter of Rights & Freedoms. It is often seen that the courts are having ongoing difficulties in recognizing a tangible tort of "group libel" until or unless it can be shown that a specific, single individual is being singled out; and there is an actual "damage" to said individual that can be proven. Canadian law recognizes such individuals as being eligible for "action at law" to specified damages as a result of said libellous expression. Our 1970 Criminal Code prohibited both "blasphemous libel" and "seditious libel" and basically making it a criminal offence to "spread false news" that could potentially, or actually did cause, a specific "mischief to the public interest." This part of The Charted was adopted into legislation in 1982. Plus, in Canada, criminal law is usually carried out by the state; whereas, criminal libel can actually be carried out by a private, individual citizen.

Quote

"The provisions brought Canada in line with its international obligations. Article 20 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights requires “any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.”46 Article 4 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination required Canada to put into effect legislation “to prosecute and/or outlaw organizations which promote or incite to racial discrimination, or incite to or use violence for the purposes of discrimination based on race, colour or ethnic origin.”47" (Buckingham, Janet Epp. Fighting over God: A Legal and Political (McGill-Queen's Studies in the History of Religion) (p. 97). MQUP. Kindle Edition).

So, here is the question. What is the last evangelistic crusade you attended? Would said message of that crusade pass the Canadian law test? Could The Pope have a potential "action at law" as a potential response to "false news" or hate-mongering "evangelism?" He seems to be saying in recent headlines that "those protestants" are sheep-stealing" and I am sure that said "sheep-stealing" cuts into the "donations" that he would have raked in. Is that an "actionable" damage? Is there a tort there somewhere in the wood work?

If you are from another country, not Canada, you can still ask the same questions. For Canadian legislation on this seems closely tied to international law on this point.  

Perhaps, the following counsel is more up to date than next week's news?

Quote

There is to be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation. Our work is to study to weed out of all our discourses everything that savors of retaliation and defiance and making a drive against churches and individuals, because this is not Christ's way and method.--Testimonies, Vol. 9, pp. 239-244.

 

[BlessedMan]

On 1/17/2020 at 7:53 PM, B/W Photodude said:

ROME — Pope Francis told Christian high school students this weekend they should respect people of other faiths and not attempt to convert them to Christianity, insisting “we are not living in the times of the crusades.”

Asked by one of the students Friday how a Christian should treat people of other faiths or no faith, the pope said that “we are all the same, all children of God” and that true disciples of Jesus do not proselytize.

https://www.breitbart.com/faith/2019/12/22/pope-francis-tells-christians-not-to-try-to-convert-nonbelievers/

Rationale for Adopting Proposal
The New Evangelization and the Bishop

Pope Benedict XVI convoked the biennial Synod of Bishops in 2012 on the theme “The New Evangelization” in acknowledgement—by the Holy See and the Catholic bishops generally— of a demise of faith among growing multitudes of the laity. The Synod addressed the “necessity to revive faith, which risks being made obscure in the context of today’s cultures, also faced with the weakening of the faith by many baptized persons.”3 A revival of faith, it said, depends on members encountering the Church as a “receptive community and experience of communion; from this, then, Christians become its witnesses …”4 That is, they become evangelists.

But the Synod noted that “to evangelize one must be evangelized first of all …”5 Thus, the goal of the new evangelization is the interior conversion of so many members whose faith is tepid at best and whose membership in the Church is largely nominal. It is a task not entirely unlike that of evangelizing people who have never heard the Gospel or confessed that “Jesus is Lord” —a task much like that which Jesus and his apostles faced.

Jesus drew people to himself through his miracles, visible and tangible actions that moved people to believe in him. He first healed their bodily ills, then preached the “good news” to them. His apostles and disciples did likewise. So also have the Church’s missionaries done over the centuries down to the present: they open schools, provide medical and social services, feed and clothe the poor. These tangible good works dispose people to listen as they preach the “good news” to which many confess, “I believe.” In turn, they become evangelists to their families and communities, engendering the Church anew “as receptive community and experience of communion …”

The new evangelization must be well rooted in this pedagogy. It means the Church must outwardly show what it believes itself to be: “a kind of sacrament or sign of intimate union with God, and of the unity of all mankind,” and convincingly convey that it is “an instrument for the achievement of such union and unity.” 6

[taken from a document entitled: "Furthering the New Evangelization: Consulting the Laity on Candidates for the Episcopacy; Prepared for Voice of the Faithful by The VOTF Bishop Selection Committee, pg 3-4]

 

[BlessedMan]

1 minute ago, BlessedMan said:

provide medical and social services, feed and clothe the poor. These tangible good works dispose people to listen as they preach the “good news” to which many confess, “I believe.”

sure sounds like bribery to me..."believe in our Jesus and we give you stuff..." The Romanist Evangelism has a long history of this kind of "evangelism."

[Gregory Matthews]

That is exactly what Christians in general, Protestants and SDAs  have been accused of doing.

 

[BlessedMan]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

That is exactly what Christians in general, Protestants and SDAs  have been accused of doing.

 

I would agree, in principle. But there are certainly variations.

[B/W Photodude]

15 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

Jesus drew people to himself through his miracles, visible and tangible actions that moved people to believe in him. He first healed their bodily ills, then preached the “good news” to them. His apostles and disciples did likewise.

I guess we have a good example to "bribe" people to listen to the gospel in Jesus!

[BlessedMan]

7 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

I guess we have a good example to "bribe" people to listen to the gospel in Jesus!

I think the whole point of this kind of approach is that like Jesus, any gospel worker has to identify with the people they wish to serve; discern the felt needs expressed, and assist in meeting said needs. With many that would be more temporal, such as food etc; with others, they express a need for a doctrine or verse that will speak to whatever they have going on. Point being, no one really needs an entire crusade or "acceptance" of some church to "receive" Jesus. If the "evangelism" is really about Jesus, there will be no strings attached.

Personal religion among us as a people is at a low ebb. There is much form, much machinery, much tongue religion; but something deeper and more solid must be brought into our religious experience. With all our facilities, our publishing houses, our schools, our sanitariums, and many, many other advantages, we ought to be far in advance of our present position. It is the work of the Christian in this life to represent Christ to the world, in life and character unfolding the blessed Jesus. If God has given us light, it is that we may reveal it to others. But in comparison with the light we have received, and the opportunities and privileges granted us to reach the hearts of the people, the results of our work thus far have been far too small. God designs that the truth which He has brought to our understanding shall produce more fruit than has yet been revealed. But when our minds are filled with gloom and sadness, dwelling upon the darkness and evil around us, how can we represent Christ to the world? How can our testimony have power to win souls? What we need is to know God and the power of His love, as revealed in Christ, by an experimental knowledge. We must search the Scriptures diligently, prayerfully; our understanding must be quickened by the Holy Spirit, and our hearts must be uplifted to God in faith and hope and continual praise.  {5T 743.2} 

Missionaries for God are wanted, faithful men and women who will not shirk responsibility. Judicious labor will accomplish good results. There is real work to do. The truth should be brought before people in a careful manner by those who unite meekness with wisdom. We should not hold ourselves aloof from our fellowmen; for their souls are as precious as our own. We can carry the light into their homes, with a softened and subdued spirit plead with the unconverted to give their hearts to Christ, show the professed followers of Jesus that there are higher attainments for them to reach, pray with them when it seems proper, and carefully present to them the special truths for this time.  {RH, October 10, 1882 par. 18} 

Christ is saying to his people, "Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal." The churches in every Conference should enlarge their field of labor. They should reach out farther and still farther, to adjoining cities and towns, carrying the light to thousands of souls who are hungering and thirsting, weeping and praying, for light. These poor souls now feel that they are shut up in darkness, and they long for light; and if each one who has the light would do his best to enlighten others, how many might be brought to a knowledge of the truth! If all the members of the church were imbued with the spirit of Jesus, and would go to work for kindred, friends, and neighbors, for all with whom they come in contact, what a work might be accomplished! Some would not accept their labors, but others would receive the light, and would with rejoicing enter the path that leads to everlasting life.  {RH, January 6, 1891 par. 18} 

 

[B/W Photodude]

2 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

Personal religion among us as a people is at a low ebb. There is much form, much machinery, much tongue religion; but something deeper and more solid must be brought into our religious experience. With all our facilities, our publishing houses, our schools, our sanitariums, and many, many other advantages, we ought to be far in advance of our present position. It is the work of the Christian in this life to represent Christ to the world, in life and character unfolding the blessed Jesus. If God has given us light, it is that we may reveal it to others. But in comparison with the light we have received, and the opportunities and privileges granted us to reach the hearts of the people, the results of our work thus far have been far too small. God designs that the truth which He has brought to our understanding shall produce more fruit than has yet been revealed. But when our minds are filled with gloom and sadness, dwelling upon the darkness and evil around us, how can we represent Christ to the world?...{5T 743.2}

This sentiment I have seen often as I read thru the Testimonies having just recently read this very chapter. I wonder sometimes how far people fall when we have been given such great light and the blessing of knowledge that the "men of old" desired to know. But then, I don't need to ponder too long, as I only have to look at my own failures.  

[BlessedMan]

4 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

Personal religion among us as a people is at a low ebb.

There are ways to change this - but for this topic, it will be of interest to compare & contrast what the Pope is saying, and how it matches up to scripture and its express methods of evangelism. Next time I have enough energy, Ill enclose a few more notes on that.