When Did It Become Acceptable?

[B/W Photodude]

I have thru my life been a vegetarian three times divided by two periods of eating meat. I never tasted meat that I remember before the age of 17 when I was tricked into eating a beef taco. I had just arrived in So Cal and never having seen a taco before, it was apparently easy for my brother to trick me! So, it was the start of eating meat for the first time. I was raised a vegetarian because that is what you did if you were a Seventh-day Adventist, at least it was in my family. You could say it was for religious reasons.

I eventually gave up meat for health reasons seeing the long term effects of a meat diet. However, eventually I went back to it when in a time when it was difficult to eat well as a vegetarian.

Finally, I forever gave up meat when I more became affected by the cruelty to animals displayed by eating them. So, this time it became an ethical issue. I recall EGW writing in Ministry of Healing regarding animals that trust us and we slay them for appetite. A coworker one time was teasing me once about putting silly hats on my dog and taking pictures of them. She said, "That doesn't contribute much to their dignity." I replied, "I contributed to the dignity of animals when I stopped eating them!" Being a vegetarian for reasons of not hurting animals has become the strongest motivation for not eating flesh foods and I have not eaten meat in more than 30 years and have been vegetarian more than 3/4 of my life. 

I have no issues for those who are forced by circumstances to eat meat. People are more important than animals. Not all parts of the world have the advantage of being able to eat solely a plant based diet. However, when a person is able to do so, the eating of animals then becomes little more than killing animals to satisfy appetite. I would consider non-essential eating of animals a sixth commandment violation.

No one will eat meat in heaven and there, animals will be able to trust those humans they come in contact with, even if they do not know them. 

[BlessedMan]

32 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

"I contributed to the dignity of animals when I stopped eating them!"

nothing with eyes or a Mother, eh? I have similar experiences, drifting in and out of vegan or lacto-ovo diets. I am very close to vegan now. In years past I had a job driving semi-trucks and had to make "deliveries" to a large meat-packing plant in Alberta. I also had experience helping a journeyman welder at the same plant, and I could tell some chilling tales of what goes on in those places. I wish I could un-see all that.

[B/W Photodude]

7 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

I also had experience helping a journeyman welder at the same plant, and I could tell some chilling tales of what goes on in those places. I wish I could un-see all that.

I had an uncle that for a period time worker in a slaughter house. One time he was working on a carcass and noticed a large tumor that he removed. The boss came along and noticed it and made him put it back! Sliced in a butchers case, could you tell the difference from healthy flesh and a tumor by just looking at it?!

[BlessedMan]

12 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

could you tell the difference from healthy flesh and a tumor by just looking at it?!

I think I likely could, mostly because of my nursing. But I can imagine that the average person may not have a clue about such things. Especially when we consider the stuff they use to change the color of meat products to make it look "fresh." If people could see what it looks like without any color like that they wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Well, I suppose some would. I better not say the details of a kidney that I sliced up one time for supper when I was a meat eater. I just added extra onions to that one.

[B/W Photodude]

I would say that if you are going to eat meat, only eat kosher meat. For several reasons, I think it would be more healthy if you are going to eat it. It actually has a much better taste to it, along with being slaughtered in a biblically prescribed manner.

For those interested in the slaughter business in the US, read the book "Animals in Translation" by Temple Grandin. It is a fascinating book in the way animals think and in ways to slaughter animals more humanely. Her theories have revolutionized the slaughter business with more than half of the slaughter houses following her recommendations to prevent animal panic as they proceed to the slaughter.

[BlessedMan]

54 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

I would say that if you are going to eat meat, only eat kosher meat. For several reasons, I think it would be more healthy if you are going to eat it. It actually has a much better taste to it, along with being slaughtered in a biblically prescribed manner.

For those interested in the slaughter business in the US, read the book "Animals in Translation" by Temple Grandin. It is a fascinating book in the way animals think and in ways to slaughter animals more humanely. Her theories have revolutionized the slaughter business with more than half of the slaughter houses following her recommendations to prevent animal panic as they proceed to the slaughter.

any thoughts on eating fish? When I stray from the vegan thing, thats been my first choice. Is there such a thing as "kosher fish?" Im not sure I even know exactly what is "kosher."

[Kevin H]

2 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

any thoughts on eating fish? When I stray from the vegan thing, thats been my first choice. Is there such a thing as "kosher fish?" Im not sure I even know exactly what is "kosher."

Fish with both fins and scales. 

[BlessedMan]

1 hour ago, Kevin H said:

Fish with both fins and scales. 

well, thats actually a good point. But I guess I didn't really say very clearly what I meant by the question. I was just curious to know if fish was safe to eat anymore? There are quotes I could drum up to show that there will be a time when various foods will not be safe to eat? it was in that context I was wondering about fish.

[Gustave]

10 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Fish with both fins and scales. 

Kosher is authorized or proper food for Jews like Halal is for Muslims. It is essentially a stamp or guarantee that the food was prepared in accordance with religious law. Slaughtered a certain way, prepared a certain way, certain animals are excluded. 

Example: Kosher Phad Thai would be prepared minus the oyster sauce. An observant Jew would not eat Phad Thai or many other Thai dishes (at Thai restaurants) because Oyster sauce is a common element in Thai cooking and Oysters are not Kosher. 

[B/W Photodude]

There are many rules regarding what is kosher and what is not. And for a product to have a kosher label in the US, the plant producing it must be inspected and certified by a rabbi. Most of the kosher rules, I believe are derived from the Torah.

However, there are somethings I think are not Torah but in an Orthodox Jewish home are observed. Dishes for meat are kept separate from dishes used for dairy. Dairy and meat will not be present in the same meal. While certain foods such as pepperoni may be used in the preparation of pizza, it would never be kosher. Many restaurants will be either dairy kosher or meat kosher. There actually is a kosher pizza parlor in the Jewish section of Pittsburgh and on Chicagos north side. While in Chicago one time for a convention, we tracked down a kosher pizza place to have some pizza. I liked the Pittsburgh pizza better!

[phkrause]

21 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

any thoughts on eating fish? When I stray from the vegan thing, thats been my first choice. Is there such a thing as "kosher fish?" Im not sure I even know exactly what is "kosher."

I can tell you one thing, never eat fish that's been farmed raised! They are fed dead fish! Have you ever watched the show called "Cooking with Paula and Curtis," on 3ABN. I believe that's the correct name of the show, if not I'll fix this post!! He went and visited a number of farms where they raise the fish, pretty disgusting!! I'm not sure how they can label the product "kosher," that's far from being kosher!! My father, if he were still alive would puke!!

[BlessedMan]

54 minutes ago, phkrause said:

I can tell you one thing, never eat fish that's been farmed raised! They are fed dead fish! Have you ever watched the show called "Cooking with Paula and Curtis," on 3ABN. I believe that's the correct name of the show, if not I'll fix this post!! He went and visited a number of farms where they raise the fish, pretty disgusting!! I'm not sure how they can label the product "kosher," that's far from being kosher!! My father, if he were still alive would puke!!

I worked for a Fish "Farm" delivering to all the Chinese Supermarkets in one of Alberta's major cities for a year or so. It was Tilapia, eels, and Buffalo Fish.. And yes, it was disgusting. lol But some people think its great. I think the word "farm" is a wrong choice for such! I became a vegetarian shortly after that.

[debbym]

On 2/9/2020 at 12:26 AM, pierrepaul said:

From what I’ve seen, “Fulcrum7” doesn’t place a high priority on truth or accuracy. They’re trying to emulate the worldly “outrage” media where half-truths and falsehoods are acceptable as long as it promotes their agenda and elicits outrage from their readership.

indeed this may be, but still this article presented by fulcrum7 is not useful where ever it may be published and read.  Unfortunately it does represent the view point of some sad's.  Yes, i said SAD's

[B/W Photodude]

On 2/29/2020 at 12:22 PM, debbym said:

is not useful where ever it may be published and read.  Unfortunately it does represent the view point of some sad's.  Yes, i said SAD's

Again, like the author of the article said, "The church of today is not the church I grew up in. In some cases that is a good thing, in other cases it is definitely not good." Then he noted quite a long list of things that have come into the church including bring meat to church functions, our priorities ahead of God's priorities, disregard the SOP, promote homosexuality, ordain transvestite elders, sanction sporting events held on the sabbath, go to restaurants on the sabbath, promote mystical practices, deny the Holy Spirit, bring dancing and rock n roll into churches, perform abortions in adventist hospitals, and unaceptable to speak out against wrongs in the church. So, which of those things should be aceptable today? It seems the last one is definitely not acceptable any more. Sad that those who express an opinion against these practices should be referred to in such a way as to put them down. 

I am afraid the pioneers of this church would be shocked beyond belief to look into the practices of many in the SPD, TED, and NAD divisions. Here is the lastest from Australia:

Huge smiles watching SDA Kinship Australia representing LGBT Seventh-day Adventists in Sydney today for the annual Mardi Gras parade (akin to Pride parades here). With so much religiously-fueled homophobia, it's crucial for LGBT people of faith to know they aren't alone.

I get requests often for support for LGBT Adventists from around the globe, and I am always so grateful to be able to refer people to SDA Kinship Int. for resources, support, and conversation with others who entirely understand the challenges of being both LGBT and Adventist (whether still identifying as Adventist or not).

Given that frequently articles are written that include the words "Mardi Gras" and "debauchery" in the same title. When should the name Seventh-day Adventist be on the banner of a group in such an event?

NEW ORLEANS' MARDI GRAS: SODDEN DEBAUCHERY BECKONS

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1995-01-29-9501200565-story.html 

Seems we are repeating the same old story from the Bible. When the leaders who followed God died, the people went their own way and fell into wickedness. Over and over again. 

 

[BlessedMan]

7 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

Sad that those who express an opinion against these practices should be referred to in such a way as to put them down. 

THATs called "unity" now!

 

8 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

Given that frequently articles are written that include the words "Mardi Gras" and "debauchery" in the same title. When should the name Seventh-day Adventist be on the banner of a group in such an event?

THATS called "unity!"

[Gregory Matthews]

In reference to the article,  Photodude said:  ". . .sanction sporting events held on the sabbath, . . ."

 

That allegation against Walla Walla University, as I have posted in detail, was false.  Period.

On the assumption that Walla Walla University is the referenced comment,  it is unethical to repeat it.

NOTE:  The person who is the first person known to have made that false allegation against Walla Walla University has apologized for making a false charge.

 

 

 

 

[BlessedMan]

59 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

On the assumption that Walla Walla University is the referenced comment,  it is unethical to repeat it.

When did it become acceptable to sanction sporting events for Seventh-day Adventist schools on Sabbath?

When did it become acceptable to have varsity sports in our schools?

The above two quotes are the only points on this tAdventist Sin List which mention sporting activities or events "in Adventist Schools."

Gregory, I find your comments re "unethical" to be presumptuous, at best. Would you kindly show us, please, where it mentions "Walla Walla?" Its not even there. (I am NOT saying you are "presumptuous," only that this comment you made is). I hope your pronouncement re "unethical" is not directed at B/W here, as nothing could be farther from the truth. If we would start to make efforts in getting to know someone before saying this kind of stuff about them; I am sure it would save a lot of grief. Both in and out of churches.

I also find it of particular interest that you chose THAT particular item to single out from the Adventist Sin List, as the seemingly most important point to pursue. There are much bigger issues in that list! Yet there is silence on those! THAT silence, says a lot, IMO.

I have never liked lists like this. I detest them; EVEN if they are right! I think it was debbym somewhere above that said "they are not useful," and I heartily applaud that comment; as well as the kind nature of her reply. So point taken there.

Your several other posts on that point re sporting events seemed to state that you had already dealt with that point comprehensively, yet you chose to come back again with this one?? Makes me think there is more than what meets the eyes at play here.

There are only two items on that list that I would agree with; and Ill leave it up to others to presume what those are, because if this is the kind of commenting we can expect for posting an opinion, I'm not interested...

Its a ridiculous list, and simply serves to create ill-will, and unwarranted presumptions. The Perfect Legalist's Manifesto!  Nothing worse than trying to "keep the sabbath" and trying to follow such a list! Almost any of those points could be disproven. But what cant be disproven; regardless of the viability of the items on the sin list, is the fact that there is that little text in Ezekiel that everyone likes to ignore of "making no difference between the holy and the unholy." There are ongoing and developing situations at "church" that would defy all logical facts that we used to call "truth" and IMO that was the purpose of B/W when he posted this. IDK if he was even saying that he agreed 100% with everything on it. Seems to me it was posted in good faith and that there is no reason to diss the messenger.

When I walk into a church or go on a forum where I cannot tell the difference between them and the world, well, thats one of those "Houston, we have a problems..."

The sin list used two scriptures: Isa 58:1-3, and Rev 2:5 I have not seen in a long time such misuse of scripture. The author of this article likely attends a shrinking church; but then, is that always bad? Seems that "growing" churches exhibit a lot of stuff that isn't church.

 

[B/W Photodude]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Quote

In reference to the article,  Photodude said:  ". . .sanction sporting events held on the sabbath, . . ."

That allegation against Walla Walla University, as I have posted in detail, was false.  Period.

On the assumption that Walla Walla University is the referenced comment,  it is unethical to repeat it.

I did not know Walla Walla had sabbath sporting events! (jk)

Walla Walla was not mentioned in the article. In fact, the author did not name any guilty parties to the items he considered to be unbecoming of members of the church. I, also, was not thinking of Walla Walla and was unaware that they had ever been accused of it.

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K, fair enough, I will respond to the issues of ethics:

1)  My comments are not directly related to an allegation made against a named person as no such was made.  If, as I have done in the past, such had been made against an identifiable person, my comments would differ.

2)  My comments are made in response to an allegation against  the SDA Church in some part of its organized activity.  This is a fair assumption as the context of this thread was that of changes that a person had experienced, over time in the "church" as that person had experienced over time.

3)  Another assumption was that the allegation related to an activity of the SDA denomination, or one of its organizations, in North America.  Again, the context was that of an individual who had personally experienced change over a time period.  Therefore, India, Greece, China, etc. were not considered to be the subject of the allegation.

4)  A simple statement that implies that sports events are now sanctioned on the Sabbath, ethically requires that enough specifics be given that would allow one to verify the allegation.  There are multiple reasons for this.  There is a real issue as to what is implies by "sanctioned," when that word is used.  Without specifics, one can not independently verify the basic information.  It may be true.  It may be false.  One can not independently verify it.  It is unethical to make a charge against the denomination that can not be verified.

5)  It is just as unethical to make allegation that is based on nothing more than a similar unverified charge tha lacks specifics.  Perhaps Tom Jones does have n Internet video tha makes the same charge.  But, if that video lacks the specifics needed to verify the chage, that video can not be sued to verify it.

6)  When the charge of a sanctioned sports event on the sabbath was first made in this forum, I spent a lot of effort in attempting to check it out.   As I searched the Internet for source material, I first found that it was once stated that an unnamed SDA cfollege/university has sanctioned such an event for their team.  With more searaching, I discovered that the school in question was Walla Walla University.  I discovered that the statement was false.  I also discovered that the person who first made the charge had formally apologized for making a false statement

7)  At that point I published in this forum a statement of the detaials of what actually had happened and I gave a specific day and time for the event, which took place outside of the Sabbath hours.  E.G. It took place on a Friday, and ended well before sundown.

'8)  This forum does allow people to make constructive, adverse, comments related to the SDA denominaiton.  It is not perfect.  We allow SDAs and non-SDAs to come her and make adverse comments on SDA life that relates to their understanding of SDA life. l So, if you want to say that when you were in the 8th grade, the SDA school that you attended had a ping-pong event, we will allow that comment, with some details.

'9)  So, if you want to come here and post that the SDA Church now sanctions sports events, inNorth Americe, on the Sabbath hours, please give us specific details so that we can verify it.  If you chose not to do so, I will consider your post to be un-ethical.

 
NOTE:  For those interested, and what I have previously published,  In the time zone where the Walla Walla team played the game, it was well outside of the Sabbath hours.  In the time zone where the person lived who first made the charge, it was during what SDAs consider to be the Sabbath.  That person has apologized for not understanding the difference in the time zone.

NOTE:  AS a personal opinion, of mine, and based upon my personal experience, teh critics of the SDA Church often repeat unfounded gossip, which is either totally false of partially false.  But, this is just my personal opinion, take it for whatever you want.

NOTE:  Did you know  that there is a nine (9) hour time difference between one part of U.S. territory   and another part?

 

 

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

The list of unbecoming behaviors was long, but again it can get used the wrong way. It is easy to overlook the items one has a personal affinity to, but easy to see others doing the things that you may not choose to engage in. It is very important when reading essays like this to keep yourself in mind. The author did well in not naming any specific individuals, but stuck to the principles involved.

The church as a whole can be considered, but be very careful about tying anyone individual to any of them. There are warnings in the New Testament regarding the kinds of persons to have no close contact with and how will you know to avoid them if you do not consider the practices they engage in?

Those who are ever pressing a little closer to the world, and becoming more like them in feelings, in plans, in ideas, have left a space between them and the Saviour, and Satan has pressed his way into this space, and low, worldly-tainted, selfish plans become interwoven with their experience. God's voice is addressing this class, which are not few: “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” It is of consequence that you hear attentively and obey. Come into close relationship with Christ. Keep your souls in constant contact with the world, and its customs will become your customs, its practices will become your practices, if you place yourselves where you will see and hear and feel and act as they do. RH 6/7/1887

[Gregory Matthews]

A charge against a denominational organization for sanctioning a sports event on the Sabbath is not a charge against an individual.

In this specific case, a charge was made in a manner that does not allow people to check it out to see if the charge is true.   That is not ethical.  Period.

 

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

10 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

2)  My comments are made in response to an allegation against  the SDA Church in some part of its organized activity.  This is a fair assumption as the context of this thread was that of changes that a person had experienced, over time in the "church" as that person had experienced over time.

I would take the article to include the whole of Adventist culture. This includes what is sanctioned by the leaders, those in organizations affiliated with the official church structure, and to the practices of the church body (the individual members). Obviously, some of the items are not sanctioned by the General Conference. Some will not be sanctioned by the General Conference, but receive support from various division leaderships. Others will be occurring at the local level of churches and their members. If conduct unbecoming is practiced at an affiliate level, should the official church body continue to maintain that affiliation?

10 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

4)  A simple statement that implies that sports events are now sanctioned on the Sabbath, ethically requires that enough specifics be given that would allow one to verify the allegation.  There are multiple reasons for this.  There is a real issue as to what is implies by "sanctioned," when that word is used.  Without specifics, one can not independently verify the basic information.  It may be true.  It may be false.  One can not independently verify it.  It is unethical to make a charge against the denomination that can not be verified.

'8)  This forum does allow people to make constructive, adverse, comments related to the SDA denominaiton.  It is not perfect.  We allow SDAs and non-SDAs to come her and make adverse comments on SDA life that relates to their understanding of SDA life. l So, if you want to say that when you were in the 8th grade, the SDA school that you attended had a ping-pong event, we will allow that comment, with some details.

'9)  So, if you want to come here and post that the SDA Church now sanctions sports events, inNorth Americe, on the Sabbath hours, please give us specific details so that we can verify it.  If you chose not to do so, I will consider your post to be un-ethical.

Here are some examples of support of sporting events that I suspect that the early church leaders would be appalled by:

"Let's give away tickets to an event held on the Sabbath and induce people to attend these events on the sabbath!":

http://adventmessenger.org/adventhealth-is-offering-racing-tickets-to-sporting-events-that-are-scheduled-on-the-sabbath/

Undoubtedly, partnering with organizations where violence is the norm would not really be considered a Christian ideal:

http://adventmessenger.org/adventhealth-is-a-championship-partner-in-the-violent-sport-of-professional-hockey/

Sticking a name of a church affiliated organization all over sporting establishments seems to be a shocking waste of funds.

Can you imagine what Adventist World Radio could accomplish with those funds if they were redirected? For astonishingly low funds they have been able to baptize thousands. Of course, now that the NAD has reduced it's tithe amounts to the General Conference, AWR has had their budgets slashed. Guess the NAD needs more funds to carry on their feminist agendas.

http://adventmessenger.org/adventists-are-spending-millions-of-dollars-on-naming-rights-contracts-with-major-sports-teams/

[Gregory Matthews]

Photodude:  Thank you for your recent post.  At least now we have something that we can talk about.  However,  you actually have not proved your point.  But, neither have I.  I have not looked into the above, so, anything that I might say about it is, at this point, as speculative as what you might say.  But, let me make the following comments:

1)  "Advent Health"  is not a trade name of the Seventh-day Adventist Chruch, as I udnrstand it.  It is the trade name of a corporation that is not owned (controlled) by the SDA Church.  There is a sense in which its relationship to the SDA Church might be compared to that of 3ABN.    3ABN is a private organization that is not controlled by the SDA Church.

The bottom line is that the photos of the name AdventHealth plastered on the walls, is not that of the SDA Church.   It is that of a private organization.

Folks, you might not like to hear me sway it, but the SDA Church no longer controls the hospitals here  in the United States.

2)  In my personal experience, I have seen hospitals which have been separated from the SDA Church existing in a community in which local community organizations raised funds to support those hospitals.  I have seen those local organizations raise funds in a manner that I would not have approved for my local SDA Congregation.

NOTE:  That hospitals that you may consider to be SDA hospitals, in the United States have, as I understand it, been organized into three, or four individual groups, with each group having a unique name.  One of the groups, as I understand it, is "Adventist Health."  That group of hospitals is a different group from the group that  makes up "Advent Health."  I think that there are two additional groups of hospitals, each with their own unique name.

3)  It is suggested that much good could have come if funds had been contributed to Adventist World Radio. AS I understand it, all of the groups of hospitals do contribute funds to the ministry of the SDA denomination and/or local SDA congregations.   Let us not think that such does not happen.   in what is often a competitive market, hospitals do have to advertise their services.  Teh funds that AdventHealth spent came from their advertising dollar, and not from funds that could have been spent on donations to SDA ministry.

To briefly sum up:  I do not have a problem with those who want to criticize thee manner in which AdventHealth spent those funds.  I believe that such can be a valid discussion.  What I object to is what I consider such to be examples of  SDA Church failures.  To me this is just another example of the critics that I see often making charges against the SDA denomination that are, at lest in part, false. and by people who have not done their fact-checking and simply repeat the gossip of others.

 

 

 

 

[pierrepaul]

These laments for the cultural norms of a past era presuppose that Adventist culture had been perfected back in the 1860s, 70s or 80s. It had not. The church had many doctrinal errors and cultural failings from those days; and many members are working to correct these. Mistakenly looking to the "pioneers" as a source of infallible truth and wisdom would be imprudent.