Forgive? nuh uh....don't wanna do it

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Am I the only one here who has a problem forgiving people who intentionally screw you? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It's different if the action was UNintentional and the party didn't know he/she was going to hurt me. But the INTENTIONAL stuff.... I find myself thinking not so nice things... []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/stirthepot.gif[/]

I know the Bible says to forgive. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> This is going to sound just awful, but *giving it to God* just doesn't seem to cut it. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> If God is going to give them their just desserts, then I'd like to be around to see it. Now.

...sorry... my trust level has just fallen to a 2 on a scale of 1-100. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Morning Glory]

I have struggled with that concept as well. I know that we are supposed to "give" our problems, etc, to Him, but I really don't know how to do this. Whatever the issue, it IS still my concern!! I still have to think about how to handle the situation...... I know that that smacks of not trusting God, but, that is NOT how I mean it. It means that I have no clue as to how to "give" these things to Someone else.

In fact, funny that you should bring this up today! I was contemplating my latest "problem" that causes me to be "weary and heavy laden" and wondering about the nuts and bolts of "giving" it to Jesus. I was "talking" to Jesus about this just last nite......

I think it is probably a very spiritual thing, and frankly, I am not always as "sprirtual" as I should/could/want to be. I probably need to take the advice someone gave here about having daily devotions. I am struggling with that one, too.

Thanks for asking the "hard" and not always "spiritually correct" ("politically" correct) questions. You ask a lot of questions that have banged around in my head, and you make me think.

Now, I will go to my corner and wait for someone who has a lot more spiritual insight and all to come up with an answer or good advice on this.

[Planey]

You betcha.

It is sometimes possible to feel forgiveness to someone who has done you wrong but shows some contrition for the deed, but almost impossible to feel any sort of forgiveness for someone who has shafted you and is quite happy about that, thank you very much. It is just as hard to forgive someone who has hurt you badly and seems to be callously indifferent to the result. They don't gloat over your misfortune (caused by them), they just couldn't care less.

And as for those who deliberately set out to hurt you, those vindictive so-and-sos...

I know exactly how you feel, Pam. I would love to able to tell you how to overcome this, how to show Christian love and longsuffering and kindness to such people but I've not found such as yet. These qualities are part of the fruit of the Spirit, but He doesn't appear to want to have anything to do with me at times like this. "You're on your own, partner."

Maybe someone else will be of more use to you. I can only stand on your side of the line and let you know that you're not alone.

Graeme

[Nan]

I try to look at situations like this by thinking that the longer I hold onto the anger/frustration/feeling for revenge, the more successful the perpetrator is being. It takes a lot of emotional energy to continue to feel a high level of hate/anger, and takes away from my enjoyment of the more positive parts of my life.

Having said all that - and I believe it - I am not sure if it makes forgiving the sort of people/action you describe, any easier. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Thanks...just knowing I'm not the Lone Ranger helps. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[there buster]

I think everyone who is honest feels the same way you do.

Problem is, forgiveness only comes into play when there are no excuses, when the wrong is intentional.

Is it easy? Nope. Should you immediately trust someone who has intentionally injured you. Of course not? As it happens, I just gave the second of two dialogues on Forgiveness in our church today. It's a tough subject.

Let me just suggest a book, "The New Freedom of Forgiveness," by David Augsburger.

This book doesn't pull any punches, doesn't pretend forgiveness is easy or simple, and doesn't accept the notion that "I'm sorry" clears everything up and restores the relationship. I really found it useful, personally.

And I'm like you. I want to see them get theirs, and now.

Forgiveness is hard for everyone, even God. That's what makes it worthwhile.

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said: And I'm like you. I want to see them get theirs, and now.

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Even the disciples had problems in this area:

Luke 9:51 And it came about, when the days were approaching for His ascension, that He [Jesus] resolutely set His face to go to Jerusalem; 52 and He sent messengers on ahead of Him. And they went, and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make arrangements for Him. 53 And they did not receive Him, because He was journeying with His face toward Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” 55 But He turned and rebuked them and said, [:"red"]“You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”[/] And they went on to another village.

[Clio]

Huh...Forgiveness.

Interesting questions Pam, as I just struggled through something this week that reminded me about forgiving.

Someone we took into our home stole something of great personal value to me while they were living with us. Something irreplaceable. And this past week it came to light.

What follows is a much pared down, suitable for public reading, much less violent discussion with True Jesus about it for 3 or 4 days running. It went something like this:

ME "NO! I don't want to forgive him! I hate him! Ok, ok, I know I'm not supposed to hate, *loud sigh* and I'm sorry. But my guts are twisting up about it."

HIM " [:"blue"]What you're feeling doesn't change anything. You just feel bad. I love you. [/]

ME "Makes me feel better. I could make him PAY! You know I could!"

HIM [:"blue"]To what purpose? You will just have to tell me what you did, make amends, and come back to the path I have ordained for you. You don't like doing that. [/]

ME *Loud sigh* "But Jesus I'm so MAD at him! I hate him I hate him I hate... oh..."

HIM [:"blue"]I love you. [/]

ME "Oh Jesus, I know he's your child too, but right now, I don't have Your heart for him. I can't even get rid of the hatred in my heart. I want him punished!!! Really really bad! I really don't want to choose to give this to You. Do I have to?"

HIM [:"blue"] *silence* [/]

ME "Jesus, it really pisses me off that I have to choose to give this to You... and it really makes me mad You designed forgiveness to help me, not the other person. Why did you do it that way?"

HIM [:"orange"] *warm silence* [/]

ME "Ok.. ok... but I'm giving it up. I can't. So I choose to give it to you, and I mean it. But I don't want to, but I choose to. And while You're at it, You better give me Your heart of compassion for him, cuz I'm not liking him much at the moment. *loud sigh* Man, I HATE this! But I love You too much to be separated. Thank You."

HIM [:"blue"]Forgiveness is not for the person's benefit who wronged you, Child. It's for you. So your spirit is cleansed of bitterness and can receive what I so long to give you. It allows you to enter into an intimate relationship with Me, where I can speak truth into your spirit through My Spirit in you. [/]

ME <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/wub.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/sorry.gif" alt="" /> "Please forgive me Jesus for the way I've been feeling and talking to You. I know better, but it's soooo hard sometimes. I can't replace this!"

HIM [:"blue"]You will soon lose many things you cannot replace. Your treasure is laid up elsewhere. Remember. [/]

ME "Yes Lord."

And then I forgot about it. Turns out Abba handled the situation for me. I didn't even need to think about it.

[olger]

Dear Rudy: Good question.

Each of us will suffer many wrongs in life. We cannot control what others do or say to us. The only thing we can do is to have a proper attitude towards those who have hurt us.

Failing to forgive someone will bring two consequences into our lives.

1) it will lead to greater and more serious consequences bitterness -> resentment -> anger -> depression -> despair -> and ultimately suicidal thoughts. The root cause of this pathway is unresolved bitterness. Proverbs 14:10 says that each heart knows it's own bitterness. A record is kept within. What is the solution? In the spirit of Christ release the person who has wounded you. You will be free for the first time. There is a good reason that God links His forgiveness of us with our forgiveness of others.

2) unresolved bitterness will defile others around us. Hebrews 12:15. If we allow bitterness to take up residence inside out heart, it will begin negatively affecting those around us. It will cause us to damage others in the same ways that we were damaged. Jesus can break this cycle. Take out a sheet of paper (or ask me to send you one). Write down every person who has hurt you, and what they did.

As you consider this pain, ask Jesus what He wants you to do with it. Only when we are willing to pay the price of pain that someone has caused us and release them forever, will we get free from bitterness. The chains fall away. The heart is unburdened.

Feel free to email me if you have further questions.

brother gcw

Biblical counselor

One Accord Ministries

[Morning Glory]

Thanks, Clio. This is excellent advice and I needed it right now. Thanks again for pointing me back to Jesus.

Pam, I am afraid that I didn't even speak to your question except the part of how to "give" the anger, etc to God. I apologize for this. You are NOT the lone ranger when it comes to these kinds of feelings of wanting revenge and wanting it NOW!! I like the way that Jesus handles it..... but it feels so much like I am out of the loop when I want to know all the down and dirty details of how "they" get "theirs"!!

[Gail]

Wow- awesome answers from everyone!

I just can't do this myself. Period.

But I have done it in my life. I had a mother who was an angry woman and caused much pain and low self-worth in me that lasted until I was an adult and examined that relationship. As an adult I made peace with my mother

What made the difference? Only the power of God. I wouldn't let go of Him until this had been rectified within me, cause I just wasn't able. The feeling of a wrong done me kept me awake many a tearful night

I can't explain it any other way, than to hang on to Jesus until He gives you the assurance you need and the power to forgive.

With me as with others who have spoken up here, it is always a struggle. But, as has been also said, it is worth it

When my own pain was comforted, then the angry, revengeful feeling went away. But Jesus does both, not instantly (although I guess in some cases it could be) but He does.

In the Bible it appears that it is as easy to do as it is for them to say it. The consensus here is that it really isn't.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I SO much appreciate everyone's thoughts here!!!!!! You have no idea what it means to me to look around and not feel so alone in my struggles! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Amelia]

ROFL Oh boy, you are never never alone in what you are feeling. I can assure you that anything you think or feel pretty much everyone here has thought and felt at some point in the past and probably will again in the future.

The thing about forgiving is just as Clio said. It's for yourself. Anger, urge for revenge, spite, pettiness, whatever label you want to put on it, is a brick in the wall(with apologies to PF) being built in your heart between you and the Holy Spirit. As long as you allow it to sit there and fester the wall gets bigger. Pretty soon the H.S. has no place to go but out and you become that person who still harbors anger over the gradeschool bully. Not a pretty picture.

The thing about the person who scams, cons, or does a number on you; they could care less that they hurt you or your feelings. In fact, they are the type to forget you as soon as they have done their thing. You have to have a sympathetic conscience to have guilt feelings over an action. They dont have it.

I talk to God as this point. I ask forgiveness for the natural human feelings I am having. He knows those feelings and understands we have them. We can't help it. But we can learn to control and let go through prayer. I am struggling right now with a chaos of emotions from my currant separation and upcoming divorce. And I can't tell you how many little handbaskets to hell I have lined up behind me. but Im woking on them one at a time.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks everybody.

I know I should be faithfully praying about the people who do dirt to me. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Clio, I think, is spot on... to pray about it even if at first it's only to say I don't want to forgive. I hadn't even thought that was an option. I'd always been taught that if I wasn't willing to do what the Bible said (i.e., forgive 70x7) then don't bother to pray at all because God wouldn't listen to me. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Y'know? Who wants to talk if nobody listens?

[Amelia]

God hears, ALWAYS!

[Clio]

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rudywoofs said:

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks everybody.

I know I should be faithfully praying about the people who do dirt to me. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Clio, I think, is spot on... to pray about it even if at first it's only to say I don't want to forgive. I hadn't even thought that was an option. I'd always been taught that if I wasn't willing to do what the Bible said (i.e., forgive 70x7) then don't bother to pray at all because God wouldn't listen to me. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Y'know? Who wants to talk if nobody listens?

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That's the same thing I was taught growing up SDA. But I learned as an adult that He already knows what's in our hearts. It's not like we're telling Him something new, or something He doesn't already know. What we're feeling isn't exactly a surprise to an already all-knowing Abba.

The thing is, He wants first place in our hearts. When we're mad, or hurting, or out for revenge, HE wants to be the one we run to.

He wants us to tell Him all about it, to get it off our chests, and then to tell Him our weakness... that we can't do anything about it, and He's more important than anything, and we know HE CAN do something about it. And to choose Him.

Because in choosing Him, we choose Life. And in choosing to let Him handle it, we are opening up the lines of communication, strengthing our love relationship with Him, and communicating. Prayer is communicating with the Creator Abba through the very medium of creation itself... Words.

[LifeHiscost]

[:"red"] "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, " [/] Ezekiel 11:19 NASB

[:"red"] "For everyone who keeps on asking receives; and he who keeps on seeking finds; and to him who keeps on knocking, [the door] will be opened. " [/] Matthew 7:8 AMP

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[LifeHiscost]

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Amelia said:

upcoming divorce.

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I cannot tell you, Amelia, my empathy for you. Been there, done that. And it makes no difference who's considered to be most at fault. The institution of marraige was meant by God to last forever. Some have said the only other human trauma that even faintly comes close to divorce, is death itself, another eternal purpose that has suffered the consequences of a fallen work that had been meant to last eternally.

Be assured you are remembered in prayer. Speaking from experience, the night does finally pass. And sometimes as in my case, after having learned where I could improve, after filtering any prospects through God's loving hands, He gave me someone that literally brought over 22 years of love and happiness that has seldom diminished.

[:"red"] "there shall be with you grace, kindness, peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love." [/]

2 John 1:3 YLT

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

Blessings!!

[Gerr]

We ALL struggle with it because the natural reaction of everyone of us is revenge for wrongs done to us. Forgiveness, like love, faith, and all the other spiritual gifts and fruits come from above. It must be supernaturally endowed. We forgive, must forgive, because our own forgiveness and well-being depends on it. See the Lord's Prayer.

Gerry

[Parade Orange]

Clio I was just so blessed with your post

Thanku for sharing your intimate dialogue with the Creator/King of the Universe.

I was very much blessed with the honesty

I hope all our prayers are as honest as that!

[Clio]

G4J, If you were blessed it was the Holy Spirit doing the blessing. That was a deeply sanitized, much less violent version of the conversation.

At least on my end. But I have a hard time resisting Someone Who keeps telling me, "I love you.". <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/untitled.bmp" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/sparkleheart.gif" alt="" />