Holy Spirit Question

[TrevorL]

This question was prompted by the Thread “Ye Shall Receive Power” started by Blessedman. I have already asked this question on his thread, but he suggested if I wanted this answered then I would need to start another thread.  The following is the question I asked:

“I looked up what is "The Lorna Linda Messages" and found that it was written by Ellen G White. I am not trying to hijack this thread, but could you explain the first phrase "When the Holy Spirit comes into the soul". Do SDAs believe that they receive the Holy Spirit directly or only through the Word of God, and to explain could you detail When? and in What form? Do SDAs believe that they receive the Holy Spirit gifts, such as Healing and Speaking in Tongues?”

The question was prompted by the title of his thread: “Ye Shall Receive Power” and by the phrase (which he highlighted in bold): "When the Holy Spirit comes into the soul", and the fact that Blessedman thought this phrase relevant and important because this was the only phrase that he wrote in bold. I assume the title of his thread is an allusion to or quotation of Acts 1:8:

Acts 1:6–9 (KJV): 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

I will briefly mention my understanding of this:  The Apostles would receive the Holy Spirit, and I suggest that this was on the Day of Pentecost, and this was the Holy Spirit gifts, which included Healing and Speaking in Tongues. I suggest that the faithful today do not possess the Holy Spirit gifts. We receive the product of this process, the writings of the Apostles and other inspired writers, and the environment produced by those that have allowed this inspired Word of God to transform their character and resulting in their ability to teach others the full counsel of God.

Kind regards Trevor

[Kevin H]

There are different levels that answers your question. The Holy Spirit is how God reveals himself to our subjective experience. Thus the Holy Spirit works with every created being in the universe (Of course by the cross Satan and the demons completely hardened their hearts to him and the rest of the universe, except humans, has become welcoming of his work as he sees fit to lead them into a deeper relationship). 

The Holy Spirit is on one level just with people no matter what their background, whether or not they are even aware of the Bible, and members of all religions including so called atheism.  He is always pointing them to reach up to what ever power is out there and to reach out to other people and to be kind to creatures etc. As Paul tells us in Romans 2. 

The Holy Spirit also helps us in our study, especially Bible study, but all truth comes from God through the Holy Spirit helping students of what ever discipline to find answers to help others. (Please pray for the doctors now looking for how to deal with the corona virus to be open to the work of the Holy Spirit). 

There there is the level as to what happened in Acts 2, where the disciple's hearts were open to a way the Holy Spirit could work through them to reach out to the world in a special way.  Sadly, some people are looking for some sort of special manifestation to give them a feeling of acceptance with God. Satan will take advantage of this. We need to trust God through faith and that the Holy Spirit will use us in what ever ways he sees is needed to the people who are around us.  

I hope this helps. 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Kevin H,

I appreciate your response.

13 hours ago, Kevin H said:

The Holy Spirit is how God reveals himself to our subjective experience. Thus the Holy Spirit works with every created being in the universe

My aim was not to discuss this subject fully, but I find the above difficult. Also I distinguish between the Holy Spirit and God's Spirit.

13 hours ago, Kevin H said:

The Holy Spirit also helps us in our study, especially Bible study, but all truth comes from God through the Holy Spirit helping students of what ever discipline to find answers to help others.

Again I find this difficult. When we study the Bible we pray for help and guidance, but I personally do not seek for direct help from the Holy Spirit. The Word of God, spoken and written is living and powerful. I look to God's providential care in life in general, and consider that the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ have an active role in our lives, but I do not attribute this to the Holy Spirit. Rather I attribute this providential care for my spiritual guidance and for some of my personal insights in understanding the word. I do not have a separate voice within, independent of my study and meditation on the word. 

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

On 3/18/2020 at 3:48 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings Kevin H,

I appreciate your response.

My aim was not to discuss this subject fully, but I find the above difficult. Also I distinguish between the Holy Spirit and God's Spirit.

Again I find this difficult. When we study the Bible we pray for help and guidance, but I personally do not seek for direct help from the Holy Spirit. The Word of God, spoken and written is living and powerful. I look to God's providential care in life in general, and consider that the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ have an active role in our lives, but I do not attribute this to the Holy Spirit. Rather I attribute this providential care for my spiritual guidance and for some of my personal insights in understanding the word. I do not have a separate voice within, independent of my study and meditation on the word. 

Kind regards Trevor

Trevor: You like so many take the Bible base on translation and not on the original writers. These men were Hebrews except Luke but from Moses to John you can see a particular writing style and grammar that was different than the Greek Manuscripts. The earliest Greek Manuscripts were fragments. It is known throughout  Biblical scholars that Paul was the only one who actually wrote in the language of the Greek speaking people who are the Gentiles according to Gen 10:5 We also know that the Greek manuscript were writing over by many writers. The Greeks had a lot of errors and this can be compared to the Peshitta writings.

Why does the language matter? Because Aramaic is a Semitic language that uses different wordplays, idioms, and grammar (including the use of gendered nouns), while Greek is a Western language that uses different wordplays and mostly gender-neutral nouns. Was the Bible Corrupted? Part 2: Peshitta

 

I don't accept the historical writings of Irenaeus either:

Justin Martyr (ca. 95–167 AD) and Irenaeus (ca. 130–202 AD), while maintaining some truths they had learned under Polycarp, also sought to accommodate themselves to the new direction of Roman theology in the name of “church unity”…Justin also molded the thinking of Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons…He believed that the God of Plato was also the God of the Bible (Ogwyn J. God’s Church Through the Ages.

He was exactly one of the individuals Paul was referring to:

 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:7

Paul saw that soon the Greeks would return to their old ways. The Greeks are known to adopt many religions and combine them. They see similarities and feel that they are actually the same belief. We have adopted everything of the Greeks so take a look at your dollar bill and you can see it for yourself.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A BEING and was in the beginning with THE SON who created the earth. The KJV changed and put in the Scripture the word "of" that did not belong there at all!

 And the earth H776 was H1961 without form, H8414 and void; H922 and darkness H2822 was upon H5921 the face H6440 of the deep.H8415 And the Spirit H7307 of GodH430 moved H7363 upo nH5921 the face H6440 of the waters.H4325 Gen 1:2

YAHSHUA Stated these Words:

 Howbeit when HE, THE SPIRIT of Truth, is come, HE will guide you into all truth: for HE shall not speak of HIMSELF; but whatsoever HE shall hear, that shall HE Speak: and HE Will shew you things to come. John 16:13

I notice you said that ELOHIYM saids my spirit. Well again we have a problem the OT where that is found the my is assumed and put there. The Greeks believe in spirits or ghost and these writers used the word "my spirit." Now, the word spirit is also used wrong and the Bible scholars know is should be the mind. We are not and do not have a spirit only THE HOLY SPIRIT dwells in our mind (The evils spirits can't either, they study our actions and they are could at it. They have that kind of power.), we have a flesh body called Adam and not man! Both the female and the male was called Adam. Gen 5:2 so a lot of male ego was going on in the Middle Ages as well! There are no ghost this is fiction and dishonor to THE HOLY SPIRIT!  You know I truly do not get us because Paul stated this:

 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the esteem of the celestial is one, and the esteem of the terrestrial is another. And so it is written, The first countenance Adam became a living being; the last ADAM was A LIFE GIVING-SPIRIT. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual? The first man is of the earth, earthy: the SECOND MAN is THE MASTER from Heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the Heavenly, such are THEY also that are Heavenly. And as we have borne the likeness of the earthy, we shall also bear THE LIKENESS of the Heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of ELOHIYM; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a Mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and THIS MORTAL shall have put on IMMORTALITY, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Co 15:35, 39-54  

That is plain, scholars has tampered with the Scriptures using the word ghost and making us think we are spirit beings, we are not! We are flesh and THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT ALL ARE SPIRIT also the angels were made spiritual beings as well. The Bible said THE FATHER MADE A FLESH BODY for YAHSHUA!

 Wherefore when HE cometh into the world, HE saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but A BODY hast THOU PREPARED ME: Heb 10:5

HE WAS DIVINE wrap in a PREPARED flesh BODY! HE return to A SPIRIT BEING and you can feel HIM. HE ate with Abraham and with the 70 elders, Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and Joseph. Gen 18:1, 8; Ex 24:10, 11 So I take the Bible who were moved by THE HOLY SPIRIT! 2Peter 1:21 Well that my presentation and the choice is yours!

Blessings!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings stinsonmarri,

5 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

You like so many take the Bible base on translation and not on the original writers.

I am not quite sure what you are suggesting here. I mainly use the KJV with help from other translations and also word reference books. Any other adjustment to the text because of different original languages should be done only by experts, and I have no language skills. I also find most of your post obscure. I do not accept the Trinity, and we should not discuss that here.

5 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

The Bible said THE FATHER MADE A FLESH BODY for YAHSHUA!

 Wherefore when HE cometh into the world, HE saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but A BODY hast THOU PREPARED ME: Heb 10:5

HE WAS DIVINE wrap in a PREPARED flesh BODY!

I have a different perspective on Hebrews 10:5 based on what Psalm 40:6 says which Paul is quoting and alluding. I think Paul uses the LXX here, but we must reconcile this with what the Hebrew says. The concept is the bond slave. The body of Hebrews 10:5 is a servant, not a supposed incarnation of a Divine Being into the womb of Mary. Jesus is the Son of God because God the Father is the father of Jesus, and Mary is his mother.

Kind regards Trevor

[B/W Photodude]

Some, like Paul (!), seem to be chasing rabbits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUtXv7dNX74

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Stinsonmarri and I differ on a number of issues that she proposes.  That is O.K.  People can differ with me in this forum.  In a recent post, she has quoted from:

https://www.historicalbiblesociety.org/was-the-bible-corrupted-the-peshitta-part-2/

The people behind that website propose some ideas that are rejected by the majority of scholars.  Some of those rejected ideas related to the MSS that we have of the Biblical texts.  So, in reading what Stinsonmarri proposes, this should be taken into consideration.  One of the rejected ideas of the people behind that website related to the priority given to the LXX.  For example, most scholars would have problems with the following:

 

Quote

Last week, we looked at evidence that the Old Testament has been passed down reliably at least since 250BCE via the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew text.

 

[stinsonmarri]

4 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I am not quite sure what you are suggesting here. I mainly use the KJV with help from other translations and also word reference books. Any other adjustment to the text because of different original languages should be done only by experts, and I have no language skills. I also find most of your post obscure. I do not accept the Trinity, and we should not discuss that here.

Trevor: Who are these so call experts, are they correct in lying to the masses? THE WORD of ELOHIYM is not written to rely on them but to search it for yourself. You see that is why you feel my post is uncertain or not known. You want to accept interpretations of humans over YAHWEH. That is exactly what happen in the days of Noah! You see they never seen or heard of rain, yet Noah was making this strange huge object called a boat. He  listen to the WORD of YAHWEH that sin was outrageous and had become too much! These intelligent beings using 100% of their brings felt just like you. They allow the experts to tell them what Noah was preaching was unfounded and only eight people went into the ark! The rest died!

Where did you read that I used the word trinity? I have never believe in the trinity and neither did SDA until the late 80's. A book called Evangelist was written complying EGW writing and by taking them out of context. The author pick and choose sentences or phases of her writing to fit around the author's belief in the trinity. Here goes your expert! How did this happen again, I call on the Greeks who were experts in combining other religions into one concept called monotheism. With this concept comes the word trinity:

The terms we translate as “Trinity” (Latin: trinitas, Greek: trias) seem to have come into use only in the last two decades of the second century; but such usage doesn't reflect trinitarian belief. These late second and third century authors use such terms not to refer to the one God, but rather to refer to the plurality of the one God, together with his Son (on Word) and his Spirit. They profess a “trinity”, triad or threesome, but not a triune or tripersonal God. Nor did they consider these to be equally divine. A common strategy for defending monotheism in this period is to emphasize the unique divinity of the Father. Thus Origen (ca. 186-255)

Then here comes the great deception:

In the case of men… since we can differentiate the action of each while they are engaged in the same task, they are rightly referred to in the plural….With regard to the divine nature, on the other hand, it is otherwise….Rather does every operation which extends from God to creation… have its origin in the Father, proceed through the Son, and reach its completion by the Holy Spirit. For the action of each in any matter is not separate and individualized. But whatever occurs… occurs through the three Persons, and is not three separate things….we cannot enumerate as three gods those who jointly, inseparably, and mutually exercise their divine power… (261–2; cf. 266, Nyssa On the Holy Trinity)) 

This is what the pioneer believed and so do I:

To hold to the doctrine of the Trinity is not so much an evidence of evil intention as of intoxication from that wine of which all nations have drunk. The fact that it was one of the leading doctrines, if not the very chief, upon which the bishop of Rome was exalted to the popedom, does not say much in its favor ... This should cause men to investigate it for themselves, as when the spirits of devils working miracles undertake the advocacy of the immortality of the soul. P.S. Cottrell;   Review and Herald,  July 6, 1869

Now, I want to make it clear that I believe in THREE INDIVIDUAL ALMIGHTY BEINGS and THEY are NOT persons. That is absurd to me! If you read my post as you claim you know I stand on the Bible. Gen 1:1 is very clear to me. I read exactly like it original stated "THE SPIRIT ELOHIYM." Gen 6:3 the KJV scholars used my instead of "THE SPIRIT." This even confused the pioneers. John 1-3, 5:18, 21, 24; Heb 1:2. Trevor I read that THREE ALMIGHTY SPIRIT BEINGS just like Paul said exist. I know that the godhead is not true, the actual word is Divinity. So I accept and study words, no expert need to explain what a word means. I learned to read just like them and can look up words for myself. The problem is we rely on to many people instead taking the time to research on our own!

4 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I have a different perspective on Hebrews 10:5 based on what Psalm 40:6 says which Paul is quoting and alluding. I think Paul uses the LXX here, but we must reconcile this with what the Hebrew says. The concept is the bond slave. The body of Hebrews 10:5 is a servant, not a supposed incarnation of a Divine Being into the womb of Mary. Jesus is the Son of God because God the Father is the father of Jesus, and Mary is his mother.

Trevor you here is taking your point of view, which mean your own interpretation. How do the Greek word "sōma," come to be defined as incarnation? This again comes from the Aryan religion mixed with the Dravidian to form the Hindu religion:

Hinduism, which is considered as much a culture and way of life as it is a religion, began in approximately 3,000 BC with the Indus River civilization and the Sindh Indo-Pakistani region.  Two main cultures blended together to create the beginnings of Hinduism: the Aryans of the north and Northwest regions of India and the Dravidians, who are thought to be of central Asian origin, of south India.  The Aryan culture was similar to that of Rome and Greece.  The Aryan myth and culture were based on a hierarchy of deities, which were dominated by the lords of the upper region.  This hierarchical establishment was the premise for the establishment of the caste system.   The Dravidian deities revolved around more earthly realms such as farm and pasture, while the Aryan deities revolved around the forces of nature.  Hindus call an incarnation of God an avatar.  A guru, a religious leader, or a Saint could be an avatar.  Many Hindus believe the next avatar will come at the end of kali yuga, 427,000 years from the present.      http://people.bu.edu/prothero/faq.html 

According to a study by Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, of those surveyed, one in five churchgoers find "spiritual energy" in mountains or trees, and one in six believe in the "evil eye," the belief that certain people can cast curses with a look. In Catholic churches one in five parishioners believes in reincarnation. This does not mean that reincarnation or casting curses are approved by any Christian authority, but it does mean that they are popular among a very significant group of Christians. 

In the Jewish world the idea of reincarnation (called in Hebrew gilgul ha'neshamot) is an accepted teaching of the Hasidic community and in Kabbalah teachings of Jewish mysticism. In secular philosophy, we find that Plato also believed in reincarnation. Elements of Eastern faiths and New Age thinking have been widely adopted by 65 percent of U.S. adults, including many who call themselves Protestants and Catholics, again according to a survey by the Pew folks. 

What accounts for the popularity of these Eastern beliefs? Well, the first and most obvious attraction of reincarnation is that is supports our fantasy that death is not really real. If our souls are recycled, then we never really die. We just keep living in new lives forever or (as Hinduism teaches) we eventually achieve release (moksha) from the cycle of rebirth and achieve ultimate enlightenment. The Hindu belief in reincarnation is connected to the Hindu belief in karma, which is the belief that our soul (atman) bears the impression of every good and bad deed we perform while we're alive. If the sum of our deeds is positive, we are reborn into a higher level. If we were corrupt, we are reborn into a lower level. Karma is appealing to all who believe God is just. Evil is punished by being low born and goodness is rewarded by being high born. The problem with karma is that it teaches that people in this life who suffer are suffering justly for evil deeds they did in a previous incarnation, and this is a double burden. It has also made eliminating the Hindu caste system difficult to abolish. Chicago Tribune

Sound like the problem many Evangelical don't want to accept today. Children in cages, prejudices is so real and there is a caste system in this society. I guess I will hear it from some folks but it is true!

In Conclusion: I don't interpret or have a view or opinion of the Bible. I study words and meaning as they originally is defined. You see I take Paul word to mean a body and not a form. I do not question the mysteries of THE ALMIGHTY ONES, I by faith accept what they say and not experts, preachers, or anyone that divert from the Bible. I have tunnel vision that THE ALMIGHTY ONES THOUGHTS, WAYS are not mine. The Bible clearly states THEY are SPIRIT BEINGS. THEIR BODIES ARE SPIRITS, our bodies are flesh! I do not need again an expert to tell me something that simple. I am truly sorry that you find the Scriptures and facts given uncertain but that is your right!

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

11 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

THE WORD of ELOHIYM is not written to rely on them but to search it for yourself. You see that is why you feel my post is uncertain or not known. You want to accept interpretations of humans over YAHWEH.

I do not consider what you have stated as being beneficial. I am not sure if you consider you own statements as Divinely guided.

21 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

HE WAS DIVINE wrap in a PREPARED flesh BODY! HE return to A SPIRIT BEING and you can feel HIM. HE ate with Abraham and with the 70 elders, Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and Joseph. Gen 18:1, 8; Ex 24:10, 11 So I take the Bible who were moved by THE HOLY SPIRIT! 2Peter 1:21 Well that my presentation and the choice is yours!

I do not accept the above. My comments on the Trinity was based upon the above. I do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

20 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I do not consider what you have stated as being beneficial. I am not sure if you consider you own statements as Divinely guided.

Trevor: I would say that those who believe in the truth and provide the Scriptures should express that THE HOLY SPIRIT will lead not only me but others into all truth. THE DIVINE guidance should always be our guide!

20 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I do not accept the above. My comments on the Trinity was based upon the above. I do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus.

Trevor I do not believe in Jesus but YAHSHUA and I take the Bible. John 1:1-3 speaks for itself. If you do not believe then that is your choice. Just remember:

YAHSHUA saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE: no man cometh unto THE FATHER, but by ME. John 14:6 

I AM the ALEPH and THE TAV, THE BEGINNING and THE ENDING, says THE MASTER, THE ONE WHICH IS, and WHICH WAS, and WHICH IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY.  Rev 1:8

You can choose to deny HIS PRE EXISTENCE but the Bible speaks the total opposite. THE FATHER IS not coming YAHSHUA IS! You nor I cannot ever get to or be accepted by THE FATHER unless you accept HIS PRE EXISTENCE  SON, this is made clear. Deny THE SON,  then you will be denied by THE FATHER!  No one can make you accept THE SON'S PRE EXISTENCE that comes by love, loyalty and faith. It is what is and your choice is what it is!

Take Care!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

19 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

I would say that those who believe in the truth and provide the Scriptures should express that THE HOLY SPIRIT will lead not only me but others into all truth. THE DIVINE guidance should always be our guide!

Perhaps relevant to the subject of this thread, is that I do not believe that we have the Holy Spirit directly within. Luther disagreed with Munster over this issue, Muntzer holding to the view of the Spirit within, while “Luther for himself had had absolutely no experience of any contemporary revelation, and in times of despondency the advice to rely upon the spirit was for him a counsel of despair, since within he could find only utter blackness.” Here I Stand – A Life of Martin Luther Roland Bainton page 202.

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2020 at 4:58 PM, stinsonmarri said:

YAHSHUA Stated these Words:

 Howbeit when HE, THE SPIRIT of Truth, is come, HE will guide you into all truth: for HE shall not speak of HIMSELF; but whatsoever HE shall hear, that shall HE Speak: and HE Will shew you things to come. John 16:13

I understand that this is talking to the Apostles, not the believers in general. The Apostles received the gifts of the Holy Spirit and they guided the early congregations and wrote the inspired records for our benefit, as we do not have the Holy Spirit within, only a spiritual mind developed from the Word and our spiritual environment.

20 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

Deny THE SON,  then you will be denied by THE FATHER!

I do not deny The Son, only I do not agree with your perspective on this subject.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

53 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

I understand that this is talking to the Apostles, not the believers in general. The Apostles received the gifts of the Holy Spirit and they guided the early congregations and wrote the inspired records for our benefit, as we do not have the Holy Spirit within, only a spiritual mind developed from the Word and our spiritual environment.

Trevor: You are like people who read and see what you choose to believe and not what is actually written. HE at that time was not talking to any apostles but to the disciples. It doesn't matter who HE was talking to. It was what HE SAID! That's THE FACTS!!!! The Scriptures were giving of what HE SAID to them also now to us. It is clear. Why? Do you think HE would say something different? If HE did HE would not be who HE SAID HE WAS! HE WAS an IS that's consistent and John wrote what HE SAID and made it clear from the beginning in his book that HE PRE EXIST and John's last Book clarified even in Heaven HE SAID the same thing only in more detail!

53 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

Perhaps relevant to the subject of this thread, is that I do not believe that we have the Holy Spirit directly within. Luther disagreed with Munster over this issue, Muntzer holding to the view of the Spirit within, while “Luther for himself had had absolutely no experience of any contemporary revelation, and in times of despondency the advice to rely upon the spirit was for him a counsel of despair, since within he could find only utter blackness.” Here I Stand – A Life of Martin Luther Roland Bainton page 202

I do not deny The Son, only I do not agree with your perspective on this subject.

Again, that is not what the Bible says. Luther may have disagreed with Munster, but Luther does not save, YAHSHUA does! Luther did not write the Scriptures YAHSHUA chosen ones moved by THE HOLY SPIRIT did!

Yes, you have you cannot have it both ways. You cannot again take your views the way you see it over what is written. I do not deal with 1John 7: 5 because this Text is not found in earlier Manuscripts. That is not my perspective that is checking out to see if things are so and are consistent. Do I believe that there ARE THREE SPIRITS INDIVIDUAL BEINGS in Heaven. Yes, because there are other Scriptures that states it. I do not need anyone to put it there so they can lie about THEM as being a trinity. That's why the Bible says to study or research the Scriptures. People have tampered with the Bible and even made fake books in many Biblical writers name. That is why you have so many religions! The Bible said there is one faith and churches are not mention. When I see the truth by understanding what words means also understanding linguistic and studying words to there root meaning, that makes a difference.

Trevor: I am not a judge, so I will never say what's going on between you and THE HOLY SPIRIT, unless you go completely off the chart claiming you are a prophet and making up weird things that just don't make sense. Then I will refute you! However, there are many who do not believe in THE PRE EXISTENCE of YAHSHUA. The Jehovah Witnesses they don't. They also came out of the William Millerite movement! But, some have changed and I believe they are sincere in their belief. So, I just pray for them that THE HOLY SPIRIT will lead them like I hope and pray the same for you! HE KNOWS what's in your mind, I don't! I present, HE CONVICTS!

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

You are like people who read and see what you choose to believe and not what is actually written. HE at that time was not talking to any apostles but to the disciples.

There were only the 12 Apostles with Jesus in the upper room:

Luke 22:11–14 (KJV): 11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? 12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. 13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

John 13 is the record of the upper room and John 18 records Jesus going into the Garden of Gethsemane with the 11 Apostles. What Jesus stated in between was directly addressed to these 11 Apostles.

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Again, that is not what the Bible says. Luther may have disagreed with Munster, but Luther does not save, YAHSHUA does! Luther did not write the Scriptures YAHSHUA chosen ones moved by THE HOLY SPIRIT did!

There is a difference between those who claim today that what they say is the direct product of the Holy Spirit and those that seek to understand what the Word of God teaches. Quoting further from the book on Luther: “In such moments (times of despondency) he must have assurance in tangible form in a written record of the stupendous act of God in Christ. Luther freely avowed his weakness and his need of historic revelation. Therefore he would not listen to Muntzer (and his view on the Holy Spirit). At this point lies much of the difference between Muntzer and Luther, but between modern liberal Protestantism and the religion of the founders.”

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Yes, you have you cannot have it both ways. You cannot again take your views the way you see it over what is written. ....

Do I believe that there ARE THREE SPIRITS INDIVIDUAL BEINGS in Heaven. Yes, because there are other Scriptures that states it.

My perspective of what the Bible teaches is that God the Father is seated upon his throne and Jesus the Son of God is seated at the right hand of God, his Father Psalm 110:1. I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and he is the Son of God by birth, his character, and by the resurrection.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

On 4/10/2020 at 1:38 AM, TrevorL said:

There were only the 12 Apostles with Jesus in the upper room:

Luke 22:11–14 (KJV): 11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? 12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. 13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

John 13 is the record of the upper room and John 18 records Jesus going into the Garden of Gethsemane with the 11 Apostles. What Jesus stated in between was directly addressed to these 11 Apostles.

 

Trevor: Thank you for correcting me and I owe you an apology. Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13 What you did provide made what I stated even more stronger. It doesn't matter who HE was talking to. It was what HE SAID! That's THE FACTS!!!! The Scriptures were giving of what HE SAID to them also now to us. It is clear. YAHSHUA send them out to present the message that HE gave to them. That's point! I am glad that you corrected me because it made me even more to understand the truth. That's is what learning is all about is receiving the truth from others!

On 4/10/2020 at 1:38 AM, TrevorL said:

There is a difference between those who claim today that what they say is the direct product of the Holy Spirit and those that seek to understand what the Word of God teaches. Quoting further from the book on Luther: “In such moments (times of despondency) he must have assurance in tangible form in a written record of the stupendous act of God in Christ. Luther freely avowed his weakness and his need of historic revelation. Therefore he would not listen to Muntzer (and his view on the Holy Spirit). At this point lies much of the difference between Muntzer and Luther, but between modern liberal Protestantism and the religion of the founders.”

I would agree, just like what I done, I listen to you but I went back also to see if those things were so. The Bible says to prove all things. What has help me tremendously over the years are people just like you! I have listen to many brothers and sister of many denomination not only SDA. I went back and research with prayer what they provided and it has build my understanding of the Scriptures. THE HOLY SPIRIT led me to them just like HE led me to you because I have a closer understanding of the Gospel.  Luther disagreed with Muntzer was base on spiritual authority of the priest and leader. Muntzer on the hand felt that priest should be lead by THE HOLY SPIRIT. He felt that the clergy had fail in leading people back to the Apostolic belief. Muntzer was more closer than Luther but he too had the idea that only the clergy had THE HOLY SPIRIT that would change both the spiritual and temporal world. There is no spiritual world but spiritual beings both good and evil in the world. Both of these men were sincere and lived up to all that they understood.

Because the Catholic Church had brought in so many paganist concepts that even today men are deceived. But time is running short and the truth of the Gospel will be fed to the world for the end to come!

On 4/10/2020 at 1:38 AM, TrevorL said:

My perspective of what the Bible teaches is that God the Father is seated upon his throne and Jesus the Son of God is seated at the right hand of God, his Father Psalm 110:1. I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and he is the Son of God by birth, his character, and by the resurrection.

Again, your perspective or view is not Biblical.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall HE come forth unto ME that is to be RULER in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of OLD, from EVERLASTING. Mic 5:2 

But he held his peace and answered nothing. Again, the high priest asked him, and said unto HIM, Art thou THE MESSIAH, THE SON of THE BLESSED? And YAHSHUA said,:  **I AM (YAHWEH): ye shall see THE SON of man sitting on THE RIGHT HAND POWER, and coming in the clouds of Heaven. Mar 14:61, 62 

  And HE Said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven. Luke 10:18

**I AM (YAHWEH) ONE that bear witness of MYSELF, and THE FATHER that sent ME beareth witness of ME.  YAHSHUA said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, **I AM (YAHWEH). John 8:18, 58 

For though there be that are called *elohim (theos: Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially the supreme Divinity.), whether in Heaven or in earth, as there be *elohim many, and masters many,  But to us there is but ONE *Elohim, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in HIM; and ONE YAHSHUA the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we by HIM. 1Co 8:5, 6 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in *Elohim, who created all things by YAHSHUA THE MESSIAH Eph 3:9

Not purloining but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the Doctrine of YAHWEH our SAVIOUR in all things. Tit 2:10 

Let me say that I use the Hebrew Version called THE WORD of YAHWEH: WOY,  (sometime the Hebrew Root Bible: HBR), or the Peshitta the Aramaic today called Syriac version: The Scripture 2009. I also used the original words in italic of Strong Greek and Hebrew Dictionary. That is the actual transliterated word but perspective or view are used that caused confusion! Example the actual spelling is Elohim, in Hebrew it actually ELOHIYM. ('ĕlôhı̂ym Strong Hebrew).

*   This is totally confusion if you notice the word in Greek is of uncertain affinity. This means that It is not actually part of the definition of the word. In other word the kinship of this word to other words is actually unknown. So, it is not with certainty. Strong could not connect the word, with certainty because there is no root word. That mean that even the Greeks made up words that had no root, not actually used!

** When HE appeared to Moses from the burning bush, ELOHE identified HIMSELF as “I AM WHO I AM (YAHWEH)” and “I AM” (Exodus 3:14). This let you know clearly that YAHWEH THE SON came as HIS FATHER'S REPRESENTATIVE. No one has ever seen THE FACE or THE SPIRIT BODY of THE FATHER! This is recorded in the Bible. So it impossible for it to be THE FATHER, nor any such thing called trinity! THEY ARE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS! The Christians see John 1:1-3, and still will deny THE SON  as a ELOHE also, THE HOLY SPIRIT.  I have to say shame on all who deny the truth written in the Bible!

Be blessed and happy Sabbath!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

It doesn't matter who HE was talking to. It was what HE SAID! That's THE FACTS!!!! The Scriptures were giving of what HE SAID to them also now to us. It is clear.

I suggest that Jesus was speaking directly to the Apostles and not to us. Jesus was about to leave them, first suffering and dying, and then resurrected to sit at the right hand of God the Father. The responsibility of preaching and guiding the young congregations was going to fall upon the Apostles. Jesus says he would send another Comforter, and this Holy Spirit power would help the Apostles and ALSO the various disciples who received the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It would be as if Jesus himself was amongst them to guide and teach. When the Spirit Gifts had accomplished their work, then these gifts faded out of existence, leaving mature elders, mature and instructed congregations and especially for them and later generations the Books of the NT. I do not believe that we have the Comforter with us today, but we have the written word, mature leaders, and God’s providential care.

I am not willing to be involved in a thorough discussion on the verses you quote except to give a brief answer as to how I understand some of these. Some of my answers may not be sufficient, even from my limited perspective.

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Again, your perspective or view is not Biblical.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall HE come forth unto ME that is to be RULER in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of OLD, from EVERLASTING. Mic 5:2

Jesus has been in the plan and purpose of God from old, from everlasting. It is speaking of his birth and his ministry and ultimate his position of Ruler, or King in the Kingdom of God.

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

**I AM (YAHWEH) ONE that bear witness of MYSELF, and THE FATHER that sent ME beareth witness of ME.  YAHSHUA said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, **I AM (YAHWEH). John 8:18, 58 

The various “I am” passages of John’s Gospel are part of the theme of whether Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. I hold the view that “ehyeh” in Exodus 3:14 should be rendered “I will be” as per Tyndale, RV and RSV margins, and thus this is not a direct link with John 8:58. The KJV translation of Exodus 3:14 is wrong.

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

For though there be that are called *elohim (theos: Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially the supreme Divinity.), whether in Heaven or in earth, as there be *elohim many, and masters many,  But to us there is but ONE *Elohim, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in HIM; and ONE YAHSHUA the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we by HIM. 1Co 8:5, 6 

Yes I agree with 1 Corinthians 8:6 as this teaches that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards Trevor

[Gregory Matthews]

In an attempt to get back to what I understand to be the central focus of Trevor's question, I will quote from his post and then respond to it:

*  There is no one answer as to what all SDAs believe  in response to Trevor's question.  Some will differ with what I say.

*  A general belief among SDAs is that God in the person of the Holy Spirit is the agency by which people are converted, instructed and empowered to live a spiritual life today.  See John 16:5-16.

*  There are valid gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to people in the church.  See I Corinthians chapters 12 and 14.  However, people differ in the gifts that they receive, chapter 12:11.  These gifts are given in accord with what is best for the common good of the church, rather than just because one wants a specific gift..  See chapter 12:7-10. 

Quote

looked up what is "The Lorna Linda Messages" and found that it was written by Ellen G White. I am not trying to hijack this thread, but could you explain the first phrase "When the Holy Spirit comes into the soul". Do SDAs believe that they receive the Holy Spirit directly or only through the Word of God, and to explain could you detail When? and in What form? Do SDAs believe that they receive the Holy Spirit gifts, such as Healing and Speaking in Tongues.

[TrevorL]

Greetings Greg,

13 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There is no one answer as to what all SDAs believe  in response to Trevor's question.  Some will differ with what I say.

I appreciate your clear and relevant response and explanation. I am not sure if this indicates that some SDAs accept the concept of present day Spirit Gifts similar to the Pentecostals, and similar to what happened to the Baptists some years ago when there was some Baptist Churches adopting this and others rejecting this movement. My two main SDA contacts at work moved elsewhere, one interstate and the other to the USA. Although I worked near the main SDA complex at Cooranbong I did not know of any other SDA in our large workforce. I did work with two Baptists, and one changed churches and told me “that is NOT the Holy Spirit”, while the other left the Baptists and joined the Pentecostal Church and became a part time Pastor. When he suffered a knee injury the full time Pastor told him that he would not be healed in a special way in the Church, but he should seek medical help. I have only once attended a Pentecostal meeting, much music, an attempt to heal two attendees, but failure, a major speaking in tongues and another interpreting. On the way home in the car an attempt was made to convert me by the proceedings, and also instruct me in the Oneness Pentecostal view, and I was given a few fairly shallow booklets by their inspired spiritual leader of their particular faction.

13 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

A general belief among SDAs is that God in the person of the Holy Spirit is the agency by which people are converted, instructed and empowered to live a spiritual life today.  See John 16:5-16.

I have mentioned how I understand this. I look to the word of the gospel preached and believed, and God's guiding hand in our lives.

13 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There are valid gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to people in the church.  See I Corinthians chapters 12 and 14.  However, people differ in the gifts that they receive, chapter 12:11.  These gifts are given in accord with what is best for the common good of the church, rather than just because one wants a specific gift..  See chapter 12:7-10.

I believe the Spirit Gifts faded, including the fact that they were passed on by the Apostles.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Gregory Matthews]

Trevor, a range of belief exists within the SDA denomination on this issue.  We even have some who are somewhat Pentecostal, perhaps less.

I do not have a problem with your stated belief.  I may not agree with all of it.  But, I do not have a problem with a SDA believing as you seem to believe.