Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted April 13, 2020 Moderators Posted April 13, 2020 For a review of a recent book on Daniel 11, see: https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/sites/default/files/pdf/BN - Reflections %2369 January - March 2020.pdf?utm_source=All+Subscribers&utm_campaign=15102f1c89-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_09_10_06_37_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_efe1c280cb-15102f1c89-150218681 Jacques Doukhan has brought back for analy-sis and discussion Daniel 11, one of the most difficult passages in biblical apocalyptic lit-erature, raising new questions and offering some new readings through the use of a new approach to the text. Doukhan’s academic training in literature and text analysis as well as his personal expe-riences and his interest in apocalyptic hope have quali-fied him well for the task at hand. The result of his study will raise new questions and will not go unchallenged.After a short introduction discussing the coded nature of Daniel 11, Doukhan proceeds in the first chapter to deal with the important topic of methodolo-gy. He discusses the three major schools of interpreta-tion (preterist, futurist, historicist) and a minor one—the Islamist interpretation. Doukhan argues that with respect to the interpretation of Daniel 11, all schools have been influenced by the preterist Maccabean thesis by finding in the chapter events related to the struggles between the Seleucids and Ptolemais and the role of Antiochus IV. He provides a penetrating critique of the Maccabean thesis not only in this chapter but through-out the rest of the book. Kevin H and phkrause 2 Quote Gregory
stinsonmarri Posted May 28, 2020 Posted May 28, 2020 On 4/13/2020 at 6:59 PM, Gregory Matthews said: For a review of a recent book on Daniel 11, see: https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/sites/default/files/pdf/BN - Reflections %2369 January - March 2020.pdf?utm_source=All+Subscribers&utm_campaign=15102f1c89-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_09_10_06_37_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_efe1c280cb-15102f1c89-150218681 Daniel 11 is showing the events of the world that included the British Empire and the War with Napoleon, the Ottoman empire and war, the Balkan war, World War l and ll. It showed the British Mandate, the rise of America and more. Why it appear complicated it the Adventist do not realize that the North and South changed over time. North change from Rome to Papal Rome to Charlemagne to Europe, France, Britian, finally America! South went from Egypt to the Ottoman, Iraqi, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. In other words it follow history of the world. There events that have not happen yet, and it is also part of Revelation. Daniel and Revelation is one Book, the Bible says that in Daniel Chapter 12. We need to study these historical events. The beast will sit in the Temple and destroy Jerusalem and the papacy but that has not happen yet. The last few verses of Dan Chapter 11 shows the events after the 3 1/ years of Dan Chapter 12 and Daniel was given an order to close the Book until the time of the end. The reason is simple, we do not know who the beast is! He will not be reveal if you Rev Chapter 11. He will be reveal in the second woe just before the third woe. The third woe YAHSHUA has come to take over the world and save HIS people and destroy the beast and the false prophet. Daniel saw the beast being cast in the Lake of Fire also John! When those who will finish this work accept THE FATHER'S HOLY NAME , keep HIS Holy Convocations Days, which are His Statutes, the Commandments and understand the Testimony of YAHSHUA WHO IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY. These remnant will know and understand the mystery of salvation and finish the work. I pray and plea to all to be a part of the 144,000! Blessings! Quote
timtofly Posted May 31, 2020 Posted May 31, 2020 The beast is Satan. The other person out of the sea is the false prophet. So the beast is revealed. Now if you are waiting for Satan to actually show his face, that may be too late. Now if you do not think it is Satan, all I can say is repent and be prepared for the Lamb and God on the throne to appear at any time. Because the beast is Satan, but if he waits to play his hand, his bluff, may be called. We still have to endure the 4th Seal. Please do not be offended, but read who the 144K are. They are male virgins, who are Jews. Revelation 7 says they will be sealed between the rapture of the church and the opening of the 7th seal. The safest bet in Satan's game of chance is to accept Christ now. After the 4th seal, all bets may be off the table and no changes can be made, period. Quote
TrevorL Posted May 31, 2020 Posted May 31, 2020 Greetings stinsonmarri and timtofly, On 5/28/2020 at 12:19 PM, stinsonmarri said: Daniel 11 is showing the events of the world that included the British Empire and the War with Napoleon, the Ottoman empire and war, the Balkan war, World War l and ll. It showed the British Mandate, the rise of America and more. Why it appear complicated it the Adventist do not realize that the North and South changed over time. North change from Rome to Papal Rome to Charlemagne to Europe, France, Britian, finally America! South went from Egypt to the Ottoman, Iraqi, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. In other words it follow history of the world. There events that have not happen yet, and it is also part of Revelation. This seems to me very speculative. 47 minutes ago, timtofly said: The beast is Satan. We still have to endure the 4th Seal. After the 4th seal, all bets may be off the table and no changes can be made, period. Congratulations on your first post, but your assessment seems very strange. I hope your future posts have more substance or you support what you say by more reasonable statements and detail. I believe that the seals are from AD 96-312, the trumpets from AD 312-1789 and the vials are from AD 1789 to the return of Jesus alluded to in Revelation 16:15. Seeing the topic is Daniel 11, could you please both explain what nation or power is the King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45 and is this the same King from the North mentioned in Ezekiel 38? Both of these appear to be at the time of the end or latter days, and I believe that we are NOW in this period of time, so we need to be aware of the correct application of these prophecies today, so that we may be warned and ready. Kind regards Trevor Quote
stinsonmarri Posted May 31, 2020 Posted May 31, 2020 11 hours ago, TrevorL said: This seems to me very speculative. “Then the sovereign of the South shall be enraged and go out to fight with him, with the sovereign of the North, who shall raise a large army. But the army shall be given into the hand of his enemy, and he shall capture the army, his heart being exalted. And he shall cause tens of thousands to fall, but not prevail. Dan 11:11, 12 TS2009 History had move forward in time and now new powers had replaced the old regimes. The Bible must be understood in its fullness to grasp what Gabriel is explaining to Daniel. In chapter eight through nine Rome is already discussed. Rome is first depicted as the “little horn,” whose powers stretch south and east. Rome is also included in the 2300 days prophecy as the one who defile the truth about the Sanctuary of the MOST HIGH and is responsible for crucifying HIS SON, THE MESSIAH. Keeping in step with history, Rome does not need to be discussed any more either as pagan or papal power. The message given by Gabriel will clearly reveal the final two most important evil foes one from the “king of the north” and the other from “the king of the south” that will cause MICHAEL to stand for the people of THE MOST HIGH ELOHE and finally destroy this world for the new world to come. The Byzantine Empire which included Egypt has now become “the kingdom of the south” and “the kingdom of the north” is now Europe under Pope Urban II. Rome had fallen, Catholicism have already emerged plucking out the three horns of Arianism. But religious beliefs divided the eastern Greek Orthodox Church from the western church under Catholicism. The Pope called upon all Christians to join a war against the Turks (a new and powerful religion called Islamic), who had come into control of the Eastern Church which also included the “kingdom of the south-Egypt,” known as the Ottoman Empire. Just as the Bible stated: The First Crusade, The People Crusade also known as the Princes' Crusade, had a large army of 40,000 Crusaders consisting mostly of men that were unskilled fighters, including women and children. This mighty army of Christian fails and they were given over into the hands of the enemy as follow: The Turks had ambushed the road to Nicaea. . . .The crusaders marched noisily and were immediately subjected to a hail of arrows. Panic set in immediately and within minutes, the mass of the army was in full rout back to the camp. Most of the crusaders were defeated; children and those who surrendered were spared, however. Thousands of soldiers that attempted to fight back were all out battled. Three thousand, including Geoffrey Burel, were lucky enough to hole up in an old abandoned castle. Eventually the Byzantines sailed over and raised the siege; these few thousand returned to Constantinople, the only survivors of the People's Crusade or The First Crusade. After the failure of the Second Crusade, the Zinged Dynasty controlled a unified Syria and engaged in a conflict with the Fatimid rulers of Egypt, which ultimately resulted in the unification of Egyptian and Syrian forces under the command of Saladin, who employed them to reduce the Christian states and to recapture Jerusalem in 1187. The Third Crusade 1187–1192 was a call by Pope Gregory VIII which was led by several of Europe's most important leaders: Philip II of France, Richard I of England (aka Richard the Lion heart), and Frederick I, Holy Roman Emperor. Richard and Saladin finalized a treaty by which Jerusalem would remain under Muslim control; however Christian pilgrims were allowed to visit the city. The Fourth Crusade is not mention and do not have any Scriptural bearings at all. Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Dan 11:13 “And the sovereign of the North shall return and raise an army greater than the former, and certainly come at the end of some years with a great army and much supplies. Once again time has change and skips over centuries now America was born as a new nation. Britain and France was fighting for dominance and a new Emperor emerged as the “king of the north,” Napoleon Bonaparte. In a largely unsuccessful effort to gain the support of the Egyptian populace, Napoleon Bonaparte issued proclamations that cast him as a liberator of the people from Ottoman oppression. He successfully fought the Battle of Chobrakit against the Mukluks, an old power in the Middle East. The Battle of the Pyramids is where Napoleon Bonaparte’s forces were greatly outnumbered by the Mameluke cavalry - 20,000 against 60,000. Napoleon formed hollow squares with supplies kept safely inside, 300 French and approximately 6,000 Egyptians were killed. Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Dan 11:14 “And in those times many shall rise up against the sovereign of the South, while some violent ones among your people exalt themselves to establish the vision, but they shall stumble. TS2009 · Italo-Turkish War (1911-1912) · Balkan and Ottoman Empire Wars (1912–1913) · Ottoman Empire with the British against Napoleon I of France (1801) This era was the formation of the “ten toes” that YAHWEH had revealed to both Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel in Chapter Two. Italy was one of the toes that contain both iron and clay. Italy had established a powerful kingdom that defeated the weak Ottoman Empire. It would take back full control of Libya which is part of North Afrika near Egypt. Revolts by Palestinian Arabs against the Egyptians and Ottoman rulers at this time may have helped to catalyze Palestinian national feeling. Both Judeans (remnants left after years of exiling the nobles from AD 70 into Europe) and Arabs were together living in Palestine. Italy won the control over Libya. The Balkan Wars were two wars in South-eastern Europe in 1912–1913 in the course of which the Balkan League (Bulgaria, Montenegro, Greece, and Serbia) first conquered Ottomans-held Macedonia, Albania and most of Thrace. Following Italy's victory in the Italo-Turkish War of 1911-1912 the Young Turks fell from power after the coup. The Balkan countries saw this as an opportunity to attack and fulfill their desires of expansion. The Ottomans managed to retake Edirne which had historic significance for the Turks, being a former Ottoman capital city (see Adrianople). The Ottomans also managed to recover eastern Thrace, which had largely been lost in the First Balkan War, and thus regained a land mass in Europe which was only slightly larger than the present-day European territory of the Republic of Turkey. Egypt, which had previously been occupied by the forces of Napoleon I of France in 1798 but recovered in 1801 by a joint Ottoman-British force, was occupied in 1882 by British forces on the pretext of bringing order; though Egypt and Sudan remained Ottoman provinces de jure until 1914. The expulsion of the French by Ottoman, Mukluks, and British forces was followed by four years of anarchy in which Ottomans, Mukluks, and Albanians who were nominally in the service of the Ottomans, wrestled for power. Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Dan 11:15 “Then the sovereign of the North shall come in and build a siege mound, and capture a city of strongholds. And the arms of the South shall not stand, nor his choice people, for there is no strength to stand.” World War I (1914 – 1918) December 23, 1916 - Allied forces in the Sinai defeat the Turks at the Battle of Magdhaba. Moving across the Sinai desert in the fall of 1916, British Commonwealth forces pushed back the Ottomans opening the way for a military railroad to be constructed across the desert. The Allied forces under General Sir Archibald Murray needed to clear these outposts before they could contemplate advancing into Palestine. Once the railway was built, the British could deliver supplies of food, ammunition, and most importantly, water to their forces on the eastern side of the Sinai desert. As the Turks withdrew from El Arish, they decided to turn Magdhaba into a fortress. That same day, December 22, General Friedrich Freiherr Kress von Kressenstein, the Commander of the Turkish 'Desert Force' drove from el Auja to inspect the force at Magdhaba, which remained in the Sinai for political reasons. While Kress saw the shortcomings, he was satisfied that the Magdhaba garrison could withstand any assault. Once again, the Bible is on tract because the Turks had the “choice” men to fight and to withstand the British power of attack. It must be noted that Satan reads the Bible and he puts up an almost remarkable stand against YAHWEH ELOHE and HIS SON. But, YAHWEH ELOHE makes it clear: Psa 89:34 “I shall not profane MY Covenant, Neither would I change what has gone out from MY LIPS. “And the arms of the South shall not stand, nor his choice people, for there is no strength to stand.” Nothing is too hard that YAHWEH ELOHE cannot control. The impossible is always possible with THE FATHER of the Heavenly host, the terms that were dictated by Gabriel is again proven by history. I did one to correct a mistake I made when I quoted this: " The last few verses of Dan Chapter 11 shows the events after the 3 1/ years of Dan Chapter 12." Because The Bible says clearly and at that time! There is more historical facts that goes along with Daniel Chapter 11 that leads to last few verses that points to the papacy at the end of the Chapter and then points to and at that specific time when the papacy has now set up between the Mediterranean Sea and Mount Zion his tabernacle is when MICHAEL shall stand up and then there will be a Time of Trouble! Why this will take place because of what the papacy will try to do. The along with the Ashkenazi Jews who have accepted the religion of the Pharisee's Rabbinical belief a false temple will be build on sacred grounds. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Dan 11:31 So all will know sacrifice was removed because it is not in the original Hebrew Text! The Daily is the Covenant of YAHWEH! It then becomes an abomination that will soon be made desolate! And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Dan 12:11 From the time that the Covenant of YAHWEH was taken away which in Dan 11:31 and the abomination that maketh desolate set up is the beast! Now, this correct! And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For ELOHIYM hath put in their hearts to fulfill HIS WILL, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of ELOHIYM shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev 17:16-18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou Heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for ELOHIYM hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Rev 18:18-21 Completely desolated is this great city Jerusalem who is the only one that killed the prophets. She had become just like Babylon, nothing but confusion of religions. The Catholics and the Protestants use to hate the Jews not the love them and spend money to take care of them. That Catholic Church owns monetary Jerusalem and Bethlehem! Fact Check it! The Catholic Church in Palestine/Israel: Real Estate in Terra Sancta The Rabbinical Jews already have made the instrument to place in the Temple with the backing of the Catholic and the Protestants churches. They are planning to rebuild the temple so while everything is about the CORVID-19 is taking place, I would suggest you keep your eyes also on the Temple Mound saga! Blessings! Quote
timtofly Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 20 hours ago, TrevorL said: Greetings stinsonmarri and timtofly, This seems to me very speculative. Congratulations on your first post, but your assessment seems very strange. I hope your future posts have more substance or you support what you say by more reasonable statements and detail. I believe that the seals are from AD 96-312, the trumpets from AD 312-1789 and the vials are from AD 1789 to the return of Jesus alluded to in Revelation 16:15. Seeing the topic is Daniel 11, could you please both explain what nation or power is the King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45 and is this the same King from the North mentioned in Ezekiel 38? Both of these appear to be at the time of the end or latter days, and I believe that we are NOW in this period of time, so we need to be aware of the correct application of these prophecies today, so that we may be warned and ready. Kind regards Trevor I am not promising to have an understandable post. The judgments in Revelation can only happen in the last 3.5 years leading up to the Second Coming. God says, that the Second Coming is the Last Week of Daniel's week of days. It is the harvest of the World. It is a set date. It happens in the middle of Daniel's last week of years. When in history has the skies roles back and God on the throne and the Lamb were seen by the whole world? Revelation 6:12-17 12 Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red. 13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. 15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb! 17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?” I do not know who the kings are, but Gog as Russia has had many incursions from the north. But we are 1000 years away from a Gog, Megog conflict. The Armageddon battle is after the Second Coming. It is the last harvest before the 1000 year reign. There may be wars upcoming, but one has to accept the seals are being opened now. Most of the wars in all OT prophets have already happened, even a Muslim war during the Syrian crisis. I think even Russia was involved. But it never flowed into Megiddo. I do not see a one world movement as has been taught the last 100 years. It seems to me that after the 6th seal, God and the Lamb will be dealing with Satan directly in view of the whole world. No prophet has prophecied that. Yet Revelation 13 is all about the dragon. The 3.5 year countdown started last fall. It will be over by April 2023. I will not keep posting here if the topic is too just figure out past history. There just are not many threads on Revelation itself. Quote
TrevorL Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 Greetings again stinsonmarri and timtofly, 11 hours ago, stinsonmarri said: The Rabbinical Jews already have made the instrument to place in the Temple with the backing of the Catholic and the Protestants churches. They are planning to rebuild the temple so while everything is about the CORVID-19 is taking place, I would suggest you keep your eyes also on the Temple Mound saga! I have read your extensive post and find most of the detail difficult to accept. I disagree with your last paragraph especially. There is one obvious observation, the Jews will not agree with the Catholics and Protestants regarding the future Temple. I would like to repeat my question to you from my last post: “Seeing the topic is Daniel 11, could you please explain what nation or power is the King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45 and is this the same King from the North mentioned in Ezekiel 38?” I will give my tentative answer: Yes, these prophecies speak of the one power, and the same event with additional detail in each prophecy and this power will be Russia. 3 hours ago, timtofly said: There may be wars upcoming, but one has to accept the seals are being opened now. I will repeat my view of the seals, trumpets and vials. I believe that the seals are from AD 96-312, the trumpets from AD 312-1789 and the vials are from AD 1789 to the return of Jesus alluded to in Revelation 16:15. 3 hours ago, timtofly said: The 3.5 year countdown started last fall. It will be over by April 2023. This reminds me of a website that has claimed for the last three years that Jesus would return during the end of May 2020. I will wait to see if the writer adjusts his web site soon. Will he add another year as happened in the 1843 prediction. Kind regards Trevor Quote
timtofly Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 14 hours ago, TrevorL said: Greetings again stinsonmarri and timtofly, I have read your extensive post and find most of the detail difficult to accept. I disagree with your last paragraph especially. There is one obvious observation, the Jews will not agree with the Catholics and Protestants regarding the future Temple. I would like to repeat my question to you from my last post: “Seeing the topic is Daniel 11, could you please explain what nation or power is the King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45 and is this the same King from the North mentioned in Ezekiel 38?” I will give my tentative answer: Yes, these prophecies speak of the one power, and the same event with additional detail in each prophecy and this power will be Russia. I will repeat my view of the seals, trumpets and vials. I believe that the seals are from AD 96-312, the trumpets from AD 312-1789 and the vials are from AD 1789 to the return of Jesus alluded to in Revelation 16:15. This reminds me of a website that has claimed for the last three years that Jesus would return during the end of May 2020. I will wait to see if the writer adjusts his web site soon. Will he add another year as happened in the 1843 prediction. Kind regards Trevor When you see in the news that 2 billion people are dead, will it be too late to do anything about it? I cannot change your mind on the way the tribulation plays out. You are in the same boat though. You cannot give a point though when 25% of the world died in a few months time, unless you can. You also left out a time frame for the Thunders, so you are going to have to adjust the time line for that. I am not prophecying a date. That is just biblical math. 2000 years from April of 30AD, which is 2030. Then subtract 7 years for Daniel's 70th week of years. That is 2023 then subtract the 3.5 years for Satan. That is Oct/Nov of 2019. That was the start of covid19. The white army of a virus as a conqueror to conquer, ie the 1st seal. Quote
stinsonmarri Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 21 hours ago, TrevorL said: I have read your extensive post and find most of the detail difficult to accept. I disagree with your last paragraph especially. There is one obvious observation, the Jews will not agree with the Catholics and Protestants regarding the future Temple. I would like to repeat my question to you from my last post: “Seeing the topic is Daniel 11, could you please explain what nation or power is the King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45 and is this the same King from the North mentioned in Ezekiel 38?” I will give my tentative answer: Yes, these prophecies speak of the one power, and the same event with additional detail in each prophecy and this power will be Russia Trevor: The Jews are not the Hebrew or IsraEL they tell you that themselves. They are from Japheth. Gen 9:27 The Hebrew do not exist anymore you cannot find their DNA. What you find is that the DNA says you have Middle Eastern blood. The Canaanites, the Arabs from Kush and from Shem all lived in the Middle East. The Chaldeans, the Medes, the Assyrians came from the Middle East. The Middle East had a lot of nations come and live and fight over that land. The original Israel DNA cannot be found they mixed with the Neo-Chaldean who they were related, the Hykos an Asian people related to Ham. They intermarried with Ham's children more than anyone! Then Japheth children took over, the Greeks, the Medes, the Persian, the Parthians, and Rome. They were spread all over then known world. They were curse read Deut Chapter 28 that their seed would be lost and it has! The Pharisees gain power after the temple in ad 70 was destroyed. The religion is called the Rabbinical Judaic religion. Daniel 11:30, 31 said they will go against the Covenant! I have stated before that Ezekiel 38 is dealing with ancient king call Gog who are the Russians and Tubal are the people of Turkey. Historically, just like the Bible said king Gog was powerful and had a large mercenary army that attack IsraEL. Many nations attack Israel when they rebelled. YAHWEH also went against Gog but it was to give Israel another lesson, this was probably after the time of Ezekiel. This had nothing to do with the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. Because of the Muslim and the constant upheaval and fighting in the Middle East a lot of history has not been discovered. Turkey and Russia are North of Israel which is different with Dan Chapter 11. North is Greece and Rome, South is Egypt and the Bible made that plain in Dan Chapter 8. The goat was Greece the notable horn broke and four horn came up. Then another horn that waxed great toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land (IsraEL). This horn is Rome and it is in Europe that is Northeast of Egypt which is south! This was to show that YAHWEH told Nebuchadnezzar the entire known empires of the world that dealt with HIS people. Egypt, Assyria, Neo-Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and Papal Rome. Then Europe is north, the USA becomes the north which follows the statue or map that Nebuchadnezzar saw. Daniel and John visions completed the many nations of the 10 toes and their wars! USA came out of the 10 toes! That is the two horned beast! It had wars with the nations of the 10 toes and the Middle East and this will be where Armageddon will take place. Back in Canaan near Mediggo where all the armies have battled. Blessings! Quote
TrevorL Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 Greetings again timtofly, 7 hours ago, timtofly said: You also left out a time frame for the Thunders, so you are going to have to adjust the time line for that. I understand the seven thunders to be after the six vials. An example of the pattern is the conquest of Jericho. They marched around the city once each day for six days, and then on the seventh day they marched around the city seven times. There are six seals, each of these are sequential in time, and then the seventh seal includes the seven trumpets. Looking at the six trumpets, each of these are sequential starting after the sixth seal, and then the seventh trumpet includes the seven vials. Looking at the sixth vial, I believe that we are in this period, which includes the drying up of the Ottoman power, the preparation of the nations for the Battle of Armageddon and the return of Christ to the faithful immediately before the Battle of Armageddon. Revelation 16:12–16 (KJV): 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Then there is the seventh vial, and this includes the seven thunders. These thunders are the judgements by Jesus upon the nations AFTER he has returned to the earth. They have not yet been publicly proclaimed, but Jesus will share them with the faithful after the resurrection, and Jesus and the faithful will personally accomplish these thunders on those nations that are disobedient and do not subject themselves under Christ. Revelation 17 includes some of these judgements on the Papacy and the nations that will support the Papacy in opposition to Jesus Christ. Revelation 17:12–14 (KJV): 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 7 hours ago, timtofly said: Then subtract 7 years for Daniel's 70th week of years. I cannot agree with the concept that half of the last week of the Seventy Weeks is deferred 2000 years. 7 hours ago, timtofly said: That is Oct/Nov of 2019. That was the start of covid19. The white army of a virus as a conqueror to conquer, ie the 1st seal. Another evidence that your suggestions are fanciful. Have we been waiting 2000 years to finally understand the 1st Seal? Kind regards Trevor Quote
TrevorL Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 Greetings again Stinsonmarri, 3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said: The Jews are not the Hebrew or IsraEL. I have stated before that Ezekiel 38 is dealing with ancient king call Gog who are the Russians and Tubal are the people of Turkey. Historically, just like the Bible said king Gog was powerful and had a large mercenary army that attack IsraEL The first thing to note about Ezekiel 38 it is speaking about events that will occur in the latter years. Ezekiel 38:8–12 (KJV): 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. 10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. The northern host will invade the land of Israel at a time soon after they have regathered into the land after the land had experienced a long time of desolation. The newly arrived inhabitants will become agriculturalists and traders. The people who will be in the land of Israel at the time of this invasion are called “my people of Israel”. Ezekiel 38:14–16 (KJV): 14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: 16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. The rest of Ezekiel 38 and all of Ezekiel 39 details the outcome of this northern invasion, and then Ezekiel 40-48 speaks of the Temple that will be established and this corresponds with some of the detail in Zechariah 14. 3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said: Turkey and Russia are North of Israel which is different with Dan Chapter 11. North is Greece and Rome, I understand that Russia becomes the new King of the North of Daniel 11:40 when she invades at least part of Turkey, including Istanbul. Greece and Rome are north east. Kind regards Trevor Quote
timtofly Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 10 hours ago, TrevorL said: Greetings again timtofly, I understand the seven thunders to be after the six vials. An example of the pattern is the conquest of Jericho. They marched around the city once each day for six days, and then on the seventh day they marched around the city seven times. There are six seals, each of these are sequential in time, and then the seventh seal includes the seven trumpets. Looking at the six trumpets, each of these are sequential starting after the sixth seal, and then the seventh trumpet includes the seven vials. Looking at the sixth vial, I believe that we are in this period, which includes the drying up of the Ottoman power, the preparation of the nations for the Battle of Armageddon and the return of Christ to the faithful immediately before the Battle of Armageddon. Revelation 16:12–16 (KJV): 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Then there is the seventh vial, and this includes the seven thunders. These thunders are the judgements by Jesus upon the nations AFTER he has returned to the earth. They have not yet been publicly proclaimed, but Jesus will share them with the faithful after the resurrection, and Jesus and the faithful will personally accomplish these thunders on those nations that are disobedient and do not subject themselves under Christ. Revelation 17 includes some of these judgements on the Papacy and the nations that will support the Papacy in opposition to Jesus Christ. Revelation 17:12–14 (KJV): 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. I cannot agree with the concept that half of the last week of the Seventy Weeks is deferred 2000 years. Another evidence that your suggestions are fanciful. Have we been waiting 2000 years to finally understand the 1st Seal? Kind regards Trevor They that wait upon the Lord, shall renew their strength. They shalt mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint. You mention the battle of Jericho. It was Yeshua who ended the Age of the Nations and started the Hebrews albeit 600 years late into their, shortened, 1400 year age of Israel as a chosen people. Why was it not back when Abraham was first called out. The point about waiting 2000 years, is because the church was given 2000 years. The battle of Jericho was an 8 day event, and no, it cannot be used to preach how the tribulation happens. It is only the first of 3 different weeks that Jesus Christ started one age and finished the previous one. It was 8 days because it started on a, would be Sunday. For 6 days prior to the Sabbath, they marched on time. God did not break any commandments. The day after the Sabbath, they marched around 7 times, and blew the Trumpets. Thus the Nations were considered useless. Well it did not quite happen as planned. Free will still comes into play. All we like sheep have gone astray, because that is the nature of free will. The nation of Israel started with Trumpets. The nation of Israel will be judged with Trumpets. The Nations themselves will be judged with Thunderings. And all these will happen before the Second Coming. We have to look first at the second triumphant week of Jesus Christ. Palm Sunday looked very promising, buy by Tuesday, the church of that day, wanted Jesus gone. That week was split in half by the Cross. The Atonement ended one age and the church age began. Then there was a 3.5 day period, where seemingly nothing happened. Death was defeated on the cross. Jesus could not enter heaven till the end of this 3.5 day period. If we see, at the end of another 3.5 day period, where 2 witnesses lay dead, something did happen. It was the end of a maybe period, remember free will and the power of revival. If Satan gets 3.5 years, those 7 last plagues, the worse of the worse, will only last 3.5 days and only given to Satan, and those humans who have the mark 666. It is an extra set incase Satan uses the last 3.5 days of the week of the Second Coming as Satan's judgment. Satan was not judged 2000 years ago, during those 3.5 days, Jesus and the OT saints had to wait to enter heaven. But God says if The Church today fails and billions of unsaved souls are still here at the Second Coming, then that celebration week will be split in half. Satan and billions of lost souls will have 3.5 years to figure it all out, because the church failed. Then the last 3.5 days while the two witnesses lay untouched, will be the wrath of God, and the wrath of the Lamb. Then Satan and his army of 666 beings, and any one left will be killed at Megiddo with 2 sickles the final harvest. One sickle in the mouth of Jesus,and the other in the mouth of Michael, the angel of the Lord. Who then binds Satan and cast him in the pit for 1000 years. So, the judgments are separated and only for those intended. The seals: The Lamb of God on the cross, the day of Atonement, created a book with all of humanity, from the 6th day creation until the last baby born, written down in this book. God says this book existed before creation. Revelation 5 asks after 7000 years, "Who is worthy to open this book?" Only the Lamb can open the Lamb'sbook of life. The seals are judgments on the church that effect the whole world. Covid19 has affected the whole world. The 4th seal is going to wipe out 25% of today's population. Seals 5 and 6 is the rapture and completion of the saints and their glorified bodies, the robes of white. It is the completion of Adam's spiritual separation. The robe of white is the covering of light. Humans, the sons of God were light beings. The stars, the angel are light beings, but humans got free will, and could make their own decisions. The decision now is how many lost souls can be saved before Satan can have any. God is not willing that any should Perish. God loves the whole world. Is the church willing that none perish? Does the church love the whole world? Is there enough time for global revival, so Satan is robbed? Yes the thief in the night is to still lost souls. Is the church making enough noise to win those lost souls to Jesus Christ? The 144k are not the church. They are sealed before the 7th seal, but they are going to be and work with Jesus in the next, less than 3 years after the Rapture. The book of life is opened, but no where does the Bible say names are added. All scripture starting from Moses, who knew the Truth, says names will be removed. He offered to has his name removed. How willing is the church to keep names from being removed? After the 7th seal it will only be Jesus and His 144K disciples, and the church will have to just sit and wait to see what happens. Quote
stinsonmarri Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 20 hours ago, TrevorL said: Greetings again Stinsonmarri, The first thing to note about Ezekiel 38 it is speaking about events that will occur in the latter years. Ezekiel 38:8–12 (KJV): 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. 10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. The northern host will invade the land of Israel at a time soon after they have regathered into the land after the land had experienced a long time of desolation. The newly arrived inhabitants will become agriculturalists and traders. The people who will be in the land of Israel at the time of this invasion are called “my people of Israel”. Ezekiel 38:14–16 (KJV): 14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: 16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. The rest of Ezekiel 38 and all of Ezekiel 39 details the outcome of this northern invasion, and then Ezekiel 40-48 speaks of the Temple that will be established and this corresponds with some of the detail in Zechariah 14. I understand that Russia becomes the new King of the North of Daniel 11:40 when she invades at least part of Turkey, including Istanbul. Greece and Rome are north east. Kind regards Trevor Trevor: If you knew the temple Ezekiel saw in Chapter 40-48 was never built because IsraEL did not obey! Secondly Zechariah 14 :4-12 and Ezekiel Chapter 38 and 39 have nothing at all related. Zechariah Chapter 14 14 :4-12 is related to Revelation Chapter 21 the New Jerusalem. And he said unto me, This chamber, whose prospect is toward the south, is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the house. And the chamber whose prospect is toward the north is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the altar: these are the sons of Zadok among the sons of Levi, which come near to YAHWEH to minister unto HIM. Eze 40:45-46 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever. When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish. Eze 43:9, 23 This clear shows that this was an earthly temple and was to be continue by the sons of Zadok but it never happen and the Ark of the Covenant was removed and hidden because they did not change and Jerusalem was taken over by Rome and they eventually destroyed the temple. There has not been another temple since that time. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zec 14:2 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of EL SHADDAI. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev 16:13, 14, 16 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city for in one hour is thy judgment come. And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for ELOHYIM hath avenged you on her. Rev 18:10,19, 20 Most refuse to accept that Jerusalem will be destroyed and become desolate for the final last time. It has become so sinful because they are worshiping a false religion call Rabbinical Judaic. The priesthood died after the destruction of the temple and the Pharisee belief system was given permission as a school near Tel Aviv and it grew and was adopted by the Ashkenazi. They stated they were not the Hebrews or ancient IsraEL in their almanac. This is true they come from Japheth and fulfill the prophecy of Noah. Gen 9:27 Jerusalem has been taken over by the Gentiles which is Japheth children only. Gen 10:5 and Rev 11:2 clearly state it was given unto them and they will tread it underfoot! The whore is the papacy who is a Gentile and he will take over Jerusalem in the last days. They the Greek Orthodox and Anglican Church own most of the property in Jerusalem and Bethlehem! They are making the money off the large Christian tourism! It is them that the beast, the false prophet and the kings of the earth will hate. This will be the battle of Armageddon and in one hour like the Bible said this city will be destroyed by fire (a nuclear bomb)! Then an angel will take up a millstone and cast into the sea! It is during this time YAHSHUA is on HIS way! The beast prepares to fight YAHSHUA, no match before he can prepare, its to late. He is taken along with the false prophet and cast into the Lake of Fire. Satan is taken, the faithful return with YAHSHUA to Heaven. After a thousand years YAHSHUA returns with the faithful and the New Jerusalem and HE plants HIS FEET on Mount Olive and it becomes a plain. It covers up the place where the old Jerusalem was now the place for the New Jerusalem. Blessings! Quote
TrevorL Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 Greetings again timtofly and stinsonmarri, 19 hours ago, timtofly said: The battle of Jericho was an 8 day event, and no, it cannot be used to preach how the tribulation happens. Joshua 6:1–4 (KJV): 1 Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in. 2 And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour. 3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days. 4 And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams’ horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets. I read seven days not eight. I was only using the conquest of Jericho as an illustration of how I understand the transition from the seals to the trumpets, and the trumpets to the vials. As stated before, I do not connect the Seals with the Tribulation, but that they cover AD 96 to 312, the judgements and overthrow of Pagan Rome. Day 1 – once: Compare Seal 1 Day 2 – once: Compare Seal 2 Day 3 – once: Compare Seal 1 Day 4 – once: Compare Seal 2 Day 5 – once: Compare Seal 1 Day 6 – once: Compare Seal 2 Day 7 – seven times: Compare Seal 7 which includes the Seven Trumpets. 6 hours ago, stinsonmarri said: If you knew the temple Ezekiel saw in Chapter 40-48 was never built because IsraEL did not obey! Secondly Zechariah 14 :4-12 and Ezekiel Chapter 38 and 39 have nothing at all related. I have a different perspective, that Ezekiel 38 describes the recent return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and then the northern invasion. After these events the Temple described in Ezekiel 40-48 is built in Jerusalem, and Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8 and Zechariah 14 describe the nations coming up to worship at Jerusalem and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles during the 1000 year reign of Jesus upon the earth. Kind regards Trevor Quote
timtofly Posted June 4, 2020 Posted June 4, 2020 On 6/3/2020 at 7:11 AM, TrevorL said: Greetings again timtofly and stinsonmarri, Joshua 6:1–4 (KJV): 1 Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in. 2 And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour. 3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days. 4 And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams’ horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets. I read seven days not eight. I was only using the conquest of Jericho as an illustration of how I understand the transition from the seals to the trumpets, and the trumpets to the vials. As stated before, I do not connect the Seals with the Tribulation, but that they cover AD 96 to 312, the judgements and overthrow of Pagan Rome. Day 1 – once: Compare Seal 1 Day 2 – once: Compare Seal 2 Day 3 – once: Compare Seal 1 Day 4 – once: Compare Seal 2 Day 5 – once: Compare Seal 1 Day 6 – once: Compare Seal 2 Day 7 – seven times: Compare Seal 7 which includes the Seven Trumpets. Kind regards Trevor Because the Sabbath the 7th day was a day of rest. God would not break a commandment, not even to bring an end to an Age. They Remembered the Sabbath, and on the 8th day, the age of the Hebrews in their own land started. But the end times were witnessed by John. To say that John lived the whole last 2000 years, would not make sense. Revelation 4:1-2 "After these things, I looked; and there before me was a door standing open in heaven; and the voice like a trumpet which I had heard speaking with me before said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” 2 Instantly I was in the Spirit, and there before me in heaven stood a throne, and on the throne Someone was sitting. John went through a door. It was not just a vision. He was caught up in the Spirit. John was there in all forms witnessing actual events. He was writing them down literally as he saw them. Revelation 10:4 4 When the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up the things the seven thunders said, do not write them down!” This time would cover the first 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th set of 7. From the seals to the thunders. Then it would be declared the end was come, and the kingdoms of this world would become the kingdom of God. Revelation 11:15 15 The seventh angel sounded his shofar; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and his Messiah, and he will rule forever and ever!” Notice the same call as the last day of Jericho Joshua 6:15-16 15 On the seventh day, they got up early, at sunrise, and went around the city in the same way seven times. That was the only day they encircled the city seven times. 16 The seventh time, when the cohanim blew on their shofars, Y’hoshua said to the people, “Shout! because Adonai has given you the city! The difference was this time an angel will being blowing the Trumpet. Revelation 10:5-7 5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted his right hand toward heaven 6 and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will be no more delay; 7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.” Verse 7 says days. The angel will after the thunders, sound the 7th Trumpet for the whole 8 days of the end of all ages. This is Daniel's 70th week of days. The Trumpet will sound for all the days of The Second Coming! There have been no vials, only the 3 sets for the 3 ages, the church, the house of Jacob, and the nations. Satan was already at work, and the 7th trumpet brings the hidden plan to light. Satan's plan of deception will be revealed and God will show all, even Satan His own hidden plan to counter Satan's deceptive plan. No one even knows God's plan in the thunders, but yet John witnessed them. The Second Coming is only planned for 8 days. Satan, still wants his 3.5 years, and if he gets his way, it will cut the week in half. It will leave 3.5 days. The 7th Trumpet will still sound for the next 3.5 years, until all 8 days are finished. If the vials are used, they will be poured out on humanity those last 3.5 days. Because the Monday after is when the Battle of Armageddon in Megiddo will take place. It is the final battle, and then the Millennium of the kingdom of God on earth will start. Once the 7th angel begins to sound, that is the end. That is the Second Coming. According to the timing of years in Daniel, and a literal 2000 years from the Cross, it would be April 2023. Satan wanted to move it ahead 3.5 years and God did. Satan may not get them, but only the church can take them away from Satan. They have the keys to bringing Revival and a Nineveh wide healing to the whole world. Jesus even said, when you see the sign of Jonah, look up. The sign was not guaranteed. Only the church can be the sign of Jonah, to the House of Jacob. The 144k disciples are to finish the harvest. Only the church can stop running away, pray, humble themselves, and seek God’s face. That is the sign of Jonah. Not the job of 144K disciples. Quote
TrevorL Posted June 4, 2020 Posted June 4, 2020 Greetings again timtofly, 2 hours ago, timtofly said: John went through a door. It was not just a vision. He was caught up in the Spirit. John was there in all forms witnessing actual events. He was writing them down literally as he saw them. I appreciate your response. The prophets often witnessed in vision things to come, and in a few instances they interacted with the vision. One example is Isaiah in Isaiah 6. Kind regards Trevor Quote
timtofly Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 13 hours ago, TrevorL said: Greetings again timtofly, I appreciate your response. The prophets often witnessed in vision things to come, and in a few instances they interacted with the vision. One example is Isaiah in Isaiah 6. Kind regards Trevor Yes, but Isaiah died. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.