Adventist BEASTwatch

[JoeMo]

13 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

I agree the one to one ministry is essential. But I also think that there is a place for large evangelistic campaigns;

I agree that in some countries (3rd world and developing countries), mass evangelism may still be somewhat effective but in industrialized, secular leaning  countries like the USA and Canada, not so much.  In all countries, friendship evangelism - "discipling" people (teaching them by word and example over time) - works much better than a few weeks of evangelism and then vanishing. I also agree that putting the focus on the love, grace, and sacrifice of Jesus (teaching people to love and obey Him) is much more effective that teaching them to fear Jesus because "Jesus is coming soon; and boy is he MAD!"

[BlessedMan]

6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I agree that in some countries (3rd world and developing countries), mass evangelism may still be somewhat effective but in industrialized, secular leaning  countries like the USA and Canada, not so much.  In all countries, friendship evangelism - "discipling" people (teaching them by word and example over time) - works much better than a few weeks of evangelism and then vanishing. I also agree that putting the focus on the love, grace, and sacrifice of Jesus (teaching people to love and obey Him) is much more effective that teaching them to fear Jesus because "Jesus is coming soon; and boy is he MAD!"

Mystigogia Runs Deep

There was a time where I would have agreed completely with this comment. It happens to be exactly what The Pope is talking about now. As he puts it "win them by attraction."  BUT in his case, attraction to what?  You can likely Google that and find a couple of articles about it pretty quick. And Im not saying that that, in and of itself makes it "bad," but I am saying that there is more to it than meets the eye. Now, when I hear someone talk like that; I just think that, for the most part, the "one on one" thing gets just as abusive and dysfunctional as the things mentioned above re "public evangelism." There is nothing worse than talking to someone, one on one, and getting the distinct, express feeling that you are being circled by a religious vulture, out to pounce on you as soon as you say anything that could be remotely construed as "an opening" or "entering wedge" . "Apologetics Specialists" go immediately into religious rapture and take great joy in said "witnessing." I recall a number of people from the past saying "I sure told that JW or Church dude, or whatever, they didn't know what to say back to me." Lets not kid ourselves, we have all heard of or seen with our own eyes such Buffalo Club Antics.

The problem happens when we try to prescribe just one method, all-too-often simply the one we "prefer" at the expense of other methods, equally valid in the right settings. Scripture and many Christian commentators, to include EGW are clear that it's Christ's method alone, that will pass inspection.

Case in point. A funeral director my family and I have had to use recently has become a good friend. We have "coffee" together. [someone is bound to ask 'was it real coffee?'] He has said that he is not "particularly religious," and yet, it seems that many of our conversations end up talking about "religion." A comment he made to me recently was that "if its true religion, then we should be able to question it." Anyone who knows me would recall a while back how I have talked about how Jesus had a method that most of us ignore. Jesus asked 308 questions in the four gospels alone, and every one of those questions are geared to promote people to express whatever level of faith they had; and believe me, there were many different levels and layers in the people Jesus had asked all those questions to! And Jesus visibly showed acceptance, not always of the express beliefs therein, but ALWAYS of the person who was replying to one of those questions. Just start going through the questions in Mathew for yourself, I think you will soon see what I mean.

So, of course, when my funeral director friend said that comment about questions, it was easy for me to reply with a big yes. And now we have something that we are both really interested in to discuss and build upon. I did assure him that I wouldn't preach too much to him until I paid the funeral bill. I'm really thinking a lot about Jer 12:5 as I write these words. For me, there is NEVER just "nothing to say" about Jesus, no matter who is in the room. While it's true that sometimes we have to just "be present" for someone; accepting the person, identifying with them, (we are never better than them), and showing unfeigned interest in them as fellow human beings; we can be equally assured that this was a method Jesus used often. But we are also admonished that Jesus gave His witness to both individuals and crowds. As well as house to house, out in the country in a lake, and even on the open highway to places such as Emmaus. In fact, it is interesting to note that when those dudes were walking to Emmaus, they started talking about Jesus, and THAT was what made "Jesus Himself drew near." When people start talking about Him; Jesus Himself draws near.

Throwing out "the mark of the beast" switch-bait or the religious pariahship of papal mystigogia, and dictated ecumenism and the like simply ignores Christ's method and replaces it with our "special list." How we adore our religious lists. Peppered with the venom of snake preachers and churchianity doctrinal carrots.

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Christ's method alone will give true success in reaching the people. The Saviour mingled with men as one who desired their good. He showed His sympathy for them, ministered to their needs, and won their confidence. Then He bade them, "Follow Me."--The Ministry of Healing, p. 143.  {ChS 119.3}  

We should do as Christ did. Wherever He was, in the synagogue, by the wayside, in the boat thrust out a little from the land, at the Pharisee's feast or the table of the publican, He spoke to men of the things pertaining to the higher life. The things of nature, the events of daily life, were bound up by Him with the words of truth. The hearts of His hearers were drawn to Him; for He had healed their sick, had comforted their sorrowing ones, and had taken their children in His arms and blessed them. When He opened His lips to speak, their attention was riveted upon Him, and every word was to some soul a savor of life unto life.  {ChS 119.4}  

So it should be with us. Wherever we are, we should watch for opportunities of speaking to others of the Saviour. If we follow Christ's example in doing good, hearts will open to us as they did to Him. Not abruptly, but with tact born of divine love, we can tell them of Him who is the "chiefest among ten thousand," and the One "altogether lovely." This is the very highest work in which we can employ the talent of speech. It was given to us that we might present Christ as the sin-pardoning Saviour.--Christ's Object Lessons, pp. 338, 339.  {ChS 119.5}  

 

The greatest emphasis in our "end time message" should be, has to be, Jesus, and until that happens, the journey is just going to get worse by the day. Let us note carefully, the following:

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Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In a future post, I will talk more, especially about verse 11.

[Kevin H]

On 4/22/2020 at 10:16 AM, pierrepaul said:

I wish that the church would give up on the apocalyptic hysteria and the pope-watching, but I won't hold my breath. So much emotional capital has been invested in the Pope=Beast paradigm that I'm not sure the church will ever be able to move on.

Amen. Not only do these beast-based evangelistic series not work, but the sorts of people who are drawn in by them often are mentally unstable and tend to have a propensity to fall for conspiracy theories of all sorts. Of course our church should be welcoming and open to all, including the conspiracy-theory types, but we aren't really helping them by feeding their obsessions.

You have many good points. We are Adventists, so we need some amount of apocalyptic hysteria. With the "Pope-watching" many of our doctrines was developed over the centuries by the Franciscans, and they were often critical of the Pope, and then there were the issues between the Pope and the Reformers. The Pope was the Antichrist of the dark ages. And historically, with few exceptions, the popes tens to side with the wrong side. The pope is the main example we have to look at to see what is coming. But we need to remember that the pope is NOT the whole beast, but only a major player in the 5th head, and has been influential in the 6th head, and will be the moral voice of the 7th head. But as we make the pope EVERYTHING, we are going to be looking for a return to the 5th head instead of moving on to the 7th head. This is where the importance of your post fits. Satan has done a divide and conquer by either leading us into seeing everything being the Pope being the complete and total fulfillment and Sunday laws  imposed on everyone, or he leads us into a camp that ignores the fact that the pope will play a role, and issues over Sabbath and Sunday will be playing a role among Christians, but the big issue is liberty of conscious and other issues will play a role outside of the Christian world.  If we can focus on where Mrs. White grew to instead of where she started out with the ideas that the Franciscans and Reformers were facing we can avoid feeding into the obsessions.  

[B/W Photodude]

9 hours ago, Kevin H said:

With the "Pope-watching" many of our doctrines was developed over the centuries by the Franciscans, and they were often critical of the Pope, and then there were the issues between the Pope and the Reformers. The Pope was the Antichrist of the dark ages.

Part of the problem is that we are "pope fixated." The pope is not the beast, it is the whole papal system. The pope is not this wicked person sitting on top of this righteous church. He does little that everyone below him in the hierarchy does not agree with him, this is down to all the orders, even to the priests in the parishes. EGW does not write as much on the pope as she writes on the papacy

[BlessedMan]

2 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Part of the problem is that we are "pope fixated." The pope is not the beast, it is the whole papal system. The pope is not this wicked person sitting on top of this righteous church. He does little that everyone below him in the hierarchy does not agree with him, this is down to all the orders, even to the priests in the parishes. EGW does not write as much on the pope as she writes on the papacy

I would go further and simply state that we are not Jesus fixated. I totally agree; EGW is careful to write about 'the system" rather than one individual.

[BlessedMan]

On 4/22/2020 at 8:16 AM, pierrepaul said:

I wish that the church would give up on the apocalyptic hysteria and the pope-watching, but I won't hold my breath. So much emotional capital has been invested in the Pope=Beast paradigm that I'm not sure the church will ever be able to move on.

Amen. Not only do these beast-based evangelistic series not work, but the sorts of people who are drawn in by them often are mentally unstable and tend to have a propensity to fall for conspiracy theories of all sorts. Of course our church should be welcoming and open to all, including the conspiracy-theory types, but we aren't really helping them by feeding their obsessions.

I think this is why some Conference officials wont let certain ones preach, in their area - at least, not as speaking in their role as Adventist ministers...

[Gustave]

He's just an adept Carnival Barker that's pushing what's profitable. It used to be that one would have to wait for the Carnival to come to town - these days you only have to point your browser to it. Only difference is Doug's Carnival doesn't have a Ferris-Wheel or a live Mermaid for the kiddies, just canards about beasts and dragons. 

[BlessedMan]

4 hours ago, Gustave said:

He's just an adept Carnival Barker that's pushing what's profitable. It used to be that one would have to wait for the Carnival to come to town - these days you only have to point your browser to it. Only difference is Doug's Carnival doesn't have a Ferris-Wheel or a live Mermaid for the kiddies, just canards about beasts and dragons. 

Looks like someone is into the point and shoot posting style today. Who poisoned your cornflakes this morning?

[Gustave]

7 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

Looks like someone is into the point and shoot posting style today. Who poisoned your cornflakes this morning?

LOL! I like your wit BM! 

I could have said I agree with the others who posted that Amazing Facts is more about sensationalizing and selling than it is about the Gospel but it seems drawing a connection between that type of peddling and what one would see at a carnival isn't really that much different. 

 

[BlessedMan]

On 4/25/2020 at 2:17 PM, Gustave said:

I could have said I agree with the others who posted that Amazing Facts is more about sensationalizing and selling than it is about the Gospel but it seems drawing a connection between that type of peddling and what one would see at a carnival isn't really that much different.

No. Its not just an Amazing Facts thing, at all. Its also a Roman Catholic thing. I have documented elsewhere on this forum some of the Romanist Church history, here in Canada, and it is even worse in many other countries. What a disgusting track record!  And putting down one to make yourself look good isnt the "everlasting gospel" of Rev 14. Ever wonder why the Pope never mentions that passage? I find it most interesting you have never commented on that topic. I thought you were an "apologist?"

On 4/24/2020 at 8:17 AM, B/W Photodude said:

Part of the problem is that we are "pope fixated." The pope is not the beast, it is the whole papal system.

Definitely.

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Rev 14:6  Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. Rev 14:7  He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." Rev 14:8  A second angel followed and said, "'Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,' which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

A wonderful feature of the prophetic word is that the people of God are never brought into positions of trial and difficulty, and there abandoned. And that IS THE message of Rev 14. God's people will never be put in a situation where we could not have strength to stand. After taking them into scenes of danger, the voice of prophecy does not leave them there to guess their fate, in doubt, perhaps despair, as to the final result. None of this takes the believer, around, over, or under; but ONLY directly THROUGH what He chooses us for. Rather, it takes them through to the end, and reveals the final triumph of the faithful.

THIS is why its called The Three Angel's MESSAGE. While there are indeed, three angels, each giving a part of the message; it is the three parts in combination and collectively that find confluence in the MESSAGE rather than the plural, "messages."

There is One, united message about victory in Christ. While it does warn against receiving "the mark of the beast," the real, "cutting truth" is simply Victory in Christ; and through His Spirit, which is clearly the ringing bells of the church today! But it's also called a "cutting truth" because being born again, and letting Christ create in you a new heart, so that He is NOT just a savior, but also your very personal LORD. That is the cutting-edge truth that the Builders are rejecting. It has almost nothing to do with "the beast" or "the mark of the beast." JESUS is "the corner stone" that the builders reject. The builders of the church, are rejecting the Corner Stone which is Jesus Christ, our Lord. "Reject the mark of the beast" they say, yet all the while, describing not "Christ in you THE Hope of glory," but, rather, their squeeling details about "the beast."

God's People should LIFT up the trumpet! Lift UP Jesus! (Isa 58:1, John 12:32)

Joh 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Want to know HOW The Three Angel's Message might fit in your life in a practical way; and keep you close to Him, and come to know Him as both Lord and Savior? Here are a few things that come to mind.

No Rest for Some.--Never before was there such a general knowledge of Jesus as when He hung upon the cross. He was lifted up from the earth, to draw all to Him. Into the hearts of many who beheld that crucifixion scene, and who heard Christ's words, was the light of truth to shine. With John they would proclaim,

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"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29)

There were those who never rested until, searching the Scriptures and comparing passage with passage, they saw the meaning of Christ's mission. They saw that free forgiveness was provided by Him whose tender mercy embraced the whole world. They read the prophecies regarding Christ, and the promises so free and full, pointing to a fountain opened for Judah and Jerusalem

Study All in Light From Cross.--The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. Those who study the Redeemer's wonderful sacrifice grow in grace and knowledge.

 

[Gustave]

On 4/28/2020 at 10:03 PM, BlessedMan said:

No. Its not just an Amazing Facts thing, at all. Its also a Roman Catholic thing. I have documented elsewhere on this forum some of the Romanist Church history, here in Canada, and it is even worse in many other countries. What a disgusting track record!  And putting down one to make yourself look good isnt the "everlasting gospel" of Rev 14. Ever wonder why the Pope never mentions that passage? I find it most interesting you have never commented on that topic. I thought you were an "apologist?"

Definitely.

A wonderful feature of the prophetic word is that the people of God are never brought into positions of trial and difficulty, and there abandoned. And that IS THE message of Rev 14. God's people will never be put in a situation where we could not have strength to stand. After taking them into scenes of danger, the voice of prophecy does not leave them there to guess their fate, in doubt, perhaps despair, as to the final result. None of this takes the believer, around, over, or under; but ONLY directly THROUGH what He chooses us for. Rather, it takes them through to the end, and reveals the final triumph of the faithful.

THIS is why its called The Three Angel's MESSAGE. While there are indeed, three angels, each giving a part of the message; it is the three parts in combination and collectively that find confluence in the MESSAGE rather than the plural, "messages."

There is One, united message about victory in Christ. While it does warn against receiving "the mark of the beast," the real, "cutting truth" is simply Victory in Christ; and through His Spirit, which is clearly the ringing bells of the church today! But it's also called a "cutting truth" because being born again, and letting Christ create in you a new heart, so that He is NOT just a savior, but also your very personal LORD. That is the cutting-edge truth that the Builders are rejecting. It has almost nothing to do with "the beast" or "the mark of the beast." JESUS is "the corner stone" that the builders reject. The builders of the church, are rejecting the Corner Stone which is Jesus Christ, our Lord. "Reject the mark of the beast" they say, yet all the while, describing not "Christ in you THE Hope of glory," but, rather, their squeeling details about "the beast."

God's People should LIFT up the trumpet! Lift UP Jesus! (Isa 58:1, John 12:32)

Joh 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Want to know HOW The Three Angel's Message might fit in your life in a practical way; and keep you close to Him, and come to know Him as both Lord and Savior? Here are a few things that come to mind.

No Rest for Some.--Never before was there such a general knowledge of Jesus as when He hung upon the cross. He was lifted up from the earth, to draw all to Him. Into the hearts of many who beheld that crucifixion scene, and who heard Christ's words, was the light of truth to shine. With John they would proclaim,

There were those who never rested until, searching the Scriptures and comparing passage with passage, they saw the meaning of Christ's mission. They saw that free forgiveness was provided by Him whose tender mercy embraced the whole world. They read the prophecies regarding Christ, and the promises so free and full, pointing to a fountain opened for Judah and Jerusalem

Study All in Light From Cross.--The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. Those who study the Redeemer's wonderful sacrifice grow in grace and knowledge.

 

I'm not sure why the Pope would speak on the meaning of something pretty much everyone knows the meaning of already. I understand SDA's understand the meaning to be different but that's not newsworthy or shocking given the other things SDA's historically have understood radically different than Apostolic Christianity (such as claiming the Father has a body of flesh, bone, organs & members), vocal and direct attacks against the Nicene Creed and that Jesus could have lost His Divinity, eternally ceased to exist & other such oddities). 

As an Apologist I would point to the above SDA distinctive doctrines as a valid reason an individual should consider additional interpretations of Rev 14 & other Scriptures before letting SDA theology alone inform their decision as to what holds water and what doesn't. 

Jesus was pretty clear that prophecy should NOT be a Christians focus when looking forward. Prophecy was definitely used to establish that Jesus was indeed the Christ but using it to conjecture the end times doesn't do anyone good except for those like Doug who profits from it (just like a Carnival barker). 

SDA's claim they have a better take on the Book of Revelation than anybody else - with the mistakes and rhubarbs they've already made with some bedrock Christian Doctrines are you certain you'd want to mightily herald that the SDA Church has the ultimate truth on the meaning of the Book of Revelation? For real? 

[Gregory Matthews]

On early SDAs and the Trinity:  There is no question that early  SDA leaders in what became the SDA denomination did not have a correct understanding of a Trinitarian God.  Those early leaders included James and Ellen White.  James White came from what is called The Christian Connection.  That group rejected the idea of a Trinity.  However, teh details of this may be poorly understood.  Those early leaders seem not to have had a unified understand as to the members of the Godhead ,,Some were probably more anti-trinitarian than were others.   head.  On the one hand, I am mystified by how Gustave describes that early understanding.  Yet, I suspect that his references are to the teachings of John H. Kellogg.   As I understand Kellogg's beliefs, he did attribute human organs to God the Father.  That may bea the basis for what Gustave has said.  However,  Kellogg was so far away from standard SDA teaching, for that time, on a number is aspects of God that I do not consider it to be fair to equate a teaching of Kellogg with standard SDA teaching.

 In a study of the doctrine of the Trinity in the SDA "Church,  the 2014 book, Biblical and Theological Studies on the Trinity  is helpful.  That book contains the work of twelve (12) different scholars.  Three chapters concentrate on historical issues.   One chapter is on Kellogg.    OF value is the chapter by Gunnar Pedersen who writes on how early SDAs understood the Trinity doctrine which they rejected.  As the chapter by Kai Arasola is of value in that it looks in greater detail to the actual beliefs of certain early SDA leaders.  It is clear that some of those people seemingly did not believe exactly what we may think that they believed.

On Prophecy:  I agree with the idea that Biblical Prophecy is NOT to predict ahead of time the specifics as to what is going to happen in the future.  From that perspective, we should not spend a central focus on detailing what we think the "Bible is telling us about the future.  Rather, one purpose of Biblical prophecy  itell us that when we in the future find ourselves in situations that seem to have been predicted in the Bible, that God has forseen all of that and that God has planned for the ultimate fulfillment of His will and purpose;  IOW, do not be afraid. God is still in charge.  God has not lost control.

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

On Prophecy:  I agree with the idea that Biblical Prophecy is NOT to predict ahead of time the specifics as to what is going to happen in the future.  From that perspective, we should not spend a central focus on detailing what we think the "Bible is telling us about the future.  Rather, one purpose of Biblical prophecy  itell us that when we in the future find ourselves in situations that seem to have been predicted in the Bible, that God has forseen all of that and that God has planned for the ultimate fulfillment of His will and purpose;  IOW, do not be afraid. God is still in charge.  God has not lost control.

Well said Gregory; I agree 100%.  While I have my own opinions about the future, that's all they are is opinions. I don't think we ever "know" what will happen in the end days until the prophecies are unfolding before our very eyes. At that time we will say "wow; that's exactly what God said in His Word.  Why didn't we see it before?"

[Gustave]

20 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

On early SDAs and the Trinity:  There is no question that early  SDA leaders in what became the SDA denomination did not have a correct understanding of a Trinitarian God.  Those early leaders included James and Ellen White.  James White came from what is called The Christian Connection.  That group rejected the idea of a Trinity.  However, teh details of this may be poorly understood.  Those early leaders seem not to have had a unified understand as to the members of the Godhead ,,Some were probably more anti-trinitarian than were others.   head.  On the one hand, I am mystified by how Gustave describes that early understanding.  Yet, I suspect that his references are to the teachings of John H. Kellogg.   As I understand Kellogg's beliefs, he did attribute human organs to God the Father.  That may bea the basis for what Gustave has said.  However,  Kellogg was so far away from standard SDA teaching, for that time, on a number is aspects of God that I do not consider it to be fair to equate a teaching of Kellogg with standard SDA teaching.

 In a study of the doctrine of the Trinity in the SDA "Church,  the 2014 book, Biblical and Theological Studies on the Trinity  is helpful.  That book contains the work of twelve (12) different scholars.  Three chapters concentrate on historical issues.   One chapter is on Kellogg.    OF value is the chapter by Gunnar Pedersen who writes on how early SDAs understood the Trinity doctrine which they rejected.  As the chapter by Kai Arasola is of value in that it looks in greater detail to the actual beliefs of certain early SDA leaders.  It is clear that some of those people seemingly did not believe exactly what we may think that they believed.

On Prophecy:  I agree with the idea that Biblical Prophecy is NOT to predict ahead of time the specifics as to what is going to happen in the future.  From that perspective, we should not spend a central focus on detailing what we think the "Bible is telling us about the future.  Rather, one purpose of Biblical prophecy  itell us that when we in the future find ourselves in situations that seem to have been predicted in the Bible, that God has forseen all of that and that god has planned for the ultimate fulfillment of His will and purpose;  IOW, do not be afraid. God is still in charge.  God has not lost control.

 

 

 

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/index.htm

If you go to the above link, Chapter 7, page 86 the following statement will jump off the page.

[NOTE:  To correct a typo that Gustave made, the quote appears on page 85.  It does not appear on page 86-GM.] 

"The Bible indicates that some people have seen parts of God's person. Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy elders saw His feet (Ex. 24:9-11). Although He refused to show His face, after covering Moses with His hands God revealed His back to him as He passed by (Ex. 33:20-23). God appeared to Daniel in a judgment-scene vision as the Ancient of Days seated on a throne (Dan. 7:9, 10). Christ is described as "the image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15) and "the express image of His person" (Heb. 1:3). These passages seem to indicate that God is a personal being and has a personal form. This should come as no surprise, for man was created in the image of God."

The above is literally verbatim of what the SDA Pioneers & Ellen White taught, that The Father had a body of flesh, bone, organs and members. SDA's taught (at least up to the point of this book) that God had \ has POTENCY. The Doctrine of the Trinity requires that God is ONE, SIMPLE, UNDIVIDED WHOLE and thus, is WITHOUT PARTS or members. This is exactly what Ellen White and the Pioneers attacked all the time and why they devoted so much time to what they called "The Personality of God" Doctrine. 

As James White was so fond of saying - The Trinity destroyed the Personality of God precisely because the Trinity Doctrine wouldn't allow God (understood to be the Father Alone) to have a body of Flesh, bone, organs and members. I don't see anything mystifying about this Adventist belief, it was too well articulated. 

Ellen White was very clear about it.

"He who denies the Personality of God and of His Son Jesus Christ, is denying God and Christ".  Ellen G. White, 1905 Sabbath Herald, March 8 1906

I've misplaced the document but I do have a copy of a Sabbath Herald where the author makes a distinction between the Sabbath God and the Beast (Sunday) God - distinction being that the Sabbath God has a body of flesh like a perfect man while the Beast (Sunday) God is one, simple undivided whole without members or parts. If I need to find this Sabbath Herald I will of course. I'll grant and readily agree that today you don't much about the personality of God Doctrine aside from some SDA books like I posted above. 

 

Divine Simplicity explained in under 2 minutes.

After watching this above video it seems very clear that from Scripture as well as Logic God really is ONE, Simple undivided whole. 

 

Like you I believe Prophecy has its place - and it's place isn't to play the part of a fortune teller - it was used to demonstrate that God Himself really did come and save us. 

[BlessedMan]

2 hours ago, Gustave said:

I do have a copy of a Sabbath Herald where the author makes a distinction between the Sabbath God and the Beast (Sunday) God

Would be interested to see this reference, if it is something specific, accurate and easily verified by the general public.

2 hours ago, Gustave said:

On Prophecy:  I agree with the idea that Biblical Prophecy is NOT to predict ahead of time the specifics as to what is going to happen in the future. 

I would disagree with that, completely disagree. Just reading Bible prophecy tells us much different.  While BIBLE prophecy is to be centered on Christ, many do not/will not accept Christ, and the "predictions" that arise are all an accepted part of The Message. Going by yours and Gregorys comments, so far, you are on the other end of the pole that says "Prophecy only talks about Jesus, not so much on prediction." NOTHING could be further than the truth.   Gustave; I wont reply again to certain things you keep bringing up, regardless of what topic we are trying to discusss, you keep bringing it up even though its been thoroughly refuted in several topics. Your half-quotes and snippets, are as always, lifted out of context, and this is that last reply Ill ever make again on that part of any reply you make.

[Gregory Matthews]

NOTE:  I have inserted into the post made by Gustave, a correction to a typo that he made.  He stated that the quote came from page 86.  It actually came from page 85.

To provide a perspective to the comment by Gustave:

*  The actual quote that Gustave cited came from a section of the book that is NOT an officially voted teaching of the SDA denomination.

*  The officially voted teachings of the SDA denomination are found in the bolded paragraph(s) that are printed on a page just prior to each chapter.

*  The actual chapters in that book reflect that thinking of a group of people who are commenting on the voted teaching.

*  The chapter in that book (Chapter 7.) is not focused on the nature of God.(Chapter 3 is the one focused on the nature of God.)   Chapter 7 is focused on the nature of man.  

*   That same page 85, also says:  ". . . man was created in the moral nature of God. . .."  The focus of Adventism has not been on physical aspects of a being.  Rather it has been on this aspect, that at the creation, humankind was created with a perfect moral nature.

*   I will grant Gustave's thesis that here is an indication here (page 85) that God has some sort of a spiritual being.

*  Page 85 also says: that the angels, like God,:  " . . . always appear in human form. . ."   But, this is an appearance, rather than a reality.  It come from teh fact that God can only communicate with us humans in terms that were understand from our human experience.

*  Page 85 also suggests that " . . . a spiritual being may have a 'spiritual body.. . "  So an angel could have a spiritual body.  but, that spiritual body would not be required to have the exact same form and features of our human bodies.

*  In the same sense, one can not fairly say that SDA trenching is that God's spiritual body  has legs, arms, a digestive tract as well as a reproductive tract.  All are human elements.  But, such can not be claimed for God. 

 

 

 

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

Would be interested to see this reference, if it is something specific, accurate and easily verified by the general public.

I would disagree with that, completely disagree. Just reading Bible prophecy tells us much different.  While BIBLE prophecy is to be centered on Christ, many do not/will not accept Christ, and the "predictions" that arise are all an accepted part of The Message. Going by yours and Gregorys comments, so far, you are on the other end of the pole that says "Prophecy only talks about Jesus, not so much on prediction." NOTHING could be further than the truth.   Gustave; I wont reply again to certain things you keep bringing up, regardless of what topic we are trying to discusss, you keep bringing it up even though its been thoroughly refuted in several topics. Your half-quotes and snippets, are as always, lifted out of context, and this is that last reply Ill ever make again on that part of any reply you make.

I'll look for it this weekend.

Nothing I've brought up has been thoroughly refuted but I can understand why it would be important for you to say that here in light of my last post. 

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

NOTE:  I have inserted into the post made by Gustave, a correction to a typo that he made.  He stated that the quote came from page 86.  It actually came from page 85.

To provide a perspective to the comment by Gustave:

*  The actual quote that Gustave cited came from a section of the book that is NOT an officially voted teaching of the SDA denomination.

*  The officially voted teachings of the SDA denomination are found in the bolded paragraph(s) that are printed on a page just prior to each chapter.

*  The actual chapters in that book reflect that thinking of a group of people who are commenting on the voted teaching.

*  The chapter in that book (Chapter 7.) is not focused on the nature of God.(Chapter 3 is the one focused on the nature of God.)   Chapter 7 is focused on the nature of man.  

*   That same page 85, also says:  ". . . man was created in the moral nature of God. . .."  The focus of Adventism has not been on physical aspects of a being.  Rather it has been on this aspect, that at the creation, humankind was created with a perfect moral nature.

*   I will grant Gustave's thesis that here is an indication here (page 85) that God has some sort of a spiritual being.

*  Page 85 also says: that the angels, like God,:  " . . . always appear in human form. . ."   But, this is an appearance, rather than a reality.  It come from teh fact that God can only communicate with us humans in terms that were understand from our human experience.

*  Page 85 also suggests that " . . . a spiritual being may have a 'spiritual body.. . "  So an angel could have a spiritual body.  but, that spiritual body would not be required to have the exact same form and features of our human bodies.

*  In the same sense, one can not fairly say that SDA trenching is that God's spiritual body  has legs, arms, a digestive tract as well as a reproductive tract.  All are human elements.  But, such can not be claimed for God. 

 

 

 

Ellen White said she saw Lucifer's "flesh" . 

Yes, I noticed those "possible" anthropomorphic admissions as well. 

 

8 years after Ellen White's death the Southern Asian Division of Seventh-day Adventists issued it's report on the Educational Department of that region. This was a fairly lengthy report that covered many different aspects of the SDA work in India with noteworthy mentions of the SDA world-wide mission. The report said the SDA's had a "textbook problem" (that's the title of the section).

"INDEED this has been a great problem to us ever since we opened schools in various sections of the field. I dare say that we are the only Christian body
who are so much confronted with this difficulty, not only in India but all over the world, since we have very definite and important reasons for establishing
our own Schools. As soon as our schools are opened the first difficulty we meet is what to put into the hands of our, children, in their mother tongue, as they progress in
its study. There are many "Readers" produced by the C. L. S and by Indian educators. In our school at Prakasapuram, we have used many kinds, but we prefer the latest publications of the C, L. S. to all the previous ones. In the former C. L. S. Readers we have come across certain anti-Scriptural expressions here and there on the personality of God, immortality of the soul, and the fate of the wicked. In such cases we used to draw thick lines over those expressions in the books for the lower classes and not assign them for lessons...." Eastern Tidings Volume 18, April 15, 1923

C.L.S. stands for the "Christian Literature Society", which is education missionary group of Protestant Evangelicals which has been producing educational and Bible lessons since 1799. I think everyone throughout the Christian world that pays attention knows that SDA's have a different understanding on the soul of man and hell. I know and acknowledge that .

What the report is saying is that the S.D.A.'s in 1923 believed the Christian Literature Society was producing Bible Study books that contained "anti-Scriptural expressions" on the Personality of God. I'm reasonably sure that a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran, etc. would agree that that God and angels are often described in the Bible in anthropomorphic terms so there wouldn't be a problem there with any of that. This begs the question of what kind of "Personality of God statements" a Baptist or Methodist believed that were so anti Scriptural SDA Educators felt that they had to draw thick lines through the statements. 

For the C.L.S. Archives click here: https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/search/archives/583e987e-a5d0-3f45-bde9-499e4450d435

I grant that an SDA would find statements in the tracts about the soul, hell and the 7th day Sabbath that they would draw a thick line through - I can admit this without any problem. Can any SDA identify any statement in any C.L.S. tract about God or the Trinity they would be compelled to draw a thick line through? I'm going to say I don't think there is but I could be wrong.

From 1855 through to 1930 the Review & Sabbath Herald along with the Signs of the Times lambasted the creeds of all other churches that claimed that God was without a body that contained  organs, members and parts. Ellen and James White wrote some of those articles. What I'm saying is the SDA Church during the lifetime of Ellen White was categorically against any statement of faith that denied that God, Michael & Lucifer the archangels were spirit - to include anthropomorphism. 

One example out of scores: 

"With such confusion as this to represent Christianity, it is no wonder that the heathen get a degraded idea of God, as evinced in the reply of the Chinaman to the Jew, who was reviling his nationality. Thinking to retort upon him as severely as possible -he replied: "Ah I me know you ; you kill the pelican man's God." How much better it would be to accept the doctrine of the distinct individuality and -personality of the Father and the Son, confessing them " one" in heart, mind and purpose, and thus avoid the jargon of confusion always attendant upon erroneous doctrine. Another error, even more generally endorsed than any of the foregoing, is the doctrine of the atonement on the cross. This also furnishes another support for
Unitarianism. The Scriptures plainly teach that Christ died for all men. Now if his death on the cross was the atonement, then the sins of all men are atoned for, and all will be saved." Sabbath Herald August 29, 1865, No. 13 

My point to Blessedman was simply that if it can be acknowledged the early SDA's made some mistakes on things like the Trinity and Personality of the Father it would only be logical to ponder the possibility that there could have also been mistakes made on the understanding of the Beast-watch and what it does in the Prophetic Books of the Bible. 

 

[Gustave]

Made a mistake and posted the wrong video - not that the video was wrong but the following one describes why Divine Simplicity is a Doctrine one should subscribe too. Its under two minutes. 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Reserved for later use

[BlessedMan]

On 4/20/2020 at 9:28 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

So says a man who lived naked in a cave above Hollywood.

 

I found this, just for you Gregory!

The World's Richest Caveman!

[BlessedMan]

On 5/1/2020 at 9:43 AM, Gustave said:

My point to Blessedman was simply that if it can be acknowledged the early SDA's made some mistakes on things like the Trinity and Personality of the Father it would only be logical to ponder the possibility that there could have also been mistakes made on the understanding of the Beast-watch and what it does in the Prophetic Books of the Bible. 

well, you have done a lot of dive-bomb posting, but have proven very little except that you really have a poor grasp of what I had in mind for this topic, and what Adventist officially taught, and still teach. This topic is supposed to be about people who do not have a good grasp on what Bible prophecy is about. I doubt that I am the only one growing tired of your hijacking many topics here with this same drama.

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes our early SDAs were incorrect. on some levels as to their Theology.  Yes we are not perfect today as to our Theology.  This is one reason why on most issues we SDAs have a range of viewpoints on many aspects of doctrine.

[phkrause]

On 5/22/2020 at 11:11 AM, BlessedMan said:

I found this, just for you Gregory!

The World's Richest Caveman!

Ah! One of my favorite sermons from one great Christian, who works relentlessly for Jesus!!

[BlessedMan]

54 minutes ago, phkrause said:

Ah! One of my favorite sermons from one great Christian, who works relentlessly for Jesus!!

It actually is a very good sermon/testimony. Doug walks with God; I have no doubt. I coined the "beast watch" thing, because IMO, sometimes he gets a bit like the disciples did with Jesus, and I think....hmmmm...is he going to call fire down from heaven on our "enemies" soon? Too many preachers do that; but Doug is not a fanatic about it. Some are, and those are the ones I seriously question. The big loud graphic I used from Amazing Facts in the OP was just an example of what people do. It wasn't a specific statement about Doug, per se. I see some, in posts above, decided to twist it all into an utterly stupid context.

It IS possible to be a true witness for Christ, while talking about, and warning people about "the beast" of Bible prophecy. One just has to be willing to see "Christ in all The Scriptures."