Did the Apostles Fail God's Test regarding the Greatest Commnadment?

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave said in the quote below:

There have been books written on this subject.  As Gustave known, Sunday keeping entered the early church over a period of years, and at differing times based upon geography.   In actual fact, at one time, in some places,  the Sabbath was celebrated on both the days we know as Saturday and Sunday

 

Quote

 The tradition of assembling on the 1st day of the week was a Tradition "ordered" by the early Church (as in the Apostolic Church). 

[Gustave]

We can exclude the Sabbath as being a potential day simply because  collections were (and still are not) taken up in a Synagogue on that day. 

We know from Hebrews 10,25 that its a sin for Christians to forsake the assembling "of themselves" together and we know that Jews today nor at the time of Christ would never think of taking up a collection the Sabbath day. That leaves 6 remaining days for Christian assembly.

1 Corinthians 16, 1 says Paul's "order" to the Christians throughout Galatia was that they were to have their money with them  and the day this is said to be is indeed Sunday. I assume that Seventh-day Adventists pass a collection plate at their Church service, no? What day is it that individual SDA's assemble together and have by them in store money to drop into the collection plate? Does it seem logical for SDA's to assemble on Sunday for the collection IF they are already assembling on Saturday? 

we also have confirmed accounts of Christians who were be escorted to their execution pre - 300 A.D. - these Christians were a very conservative lot and obviously willing to die for their Faith in Christ - why do these Christians assert that Sunday was the day that Christians assembled for their Liturgy as they were being taken to their deaths?

How about it PKrause? I'd like an SDA to address this. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K,. Gustave, let us take a look at 1 Corinthians 16: 1 & 2:

*  I do not have any problem with stating that the day in question here is the 1st day of the week, that in English we call Sunday.  It is not Saturday.   This is beyond any reasonable question.

*  The Jewish system required both Tithe and other offerings.  One aspect of that system was not based upon a set amount.  Rather it consisted of a per-cent of one's net income after expenses had been deducted.  [NOTE:  I am aware of aspects of this that could be debated, but are not a part of this discussion.]

*  From the perspective of a per-cent of net income,  some computation of the net income was required.  An observant Jew would not be doing this on the Sabbath.  As you said, they would not even take up a collection on the Sabbath.  Personally, I think that your argument helps to establish that this 1st day of the week was not the worship day.

*  Coming from this background,  it is reasonable for Paul to be telling the Christians to do their computation of Tithe and offerings on  a day on which they are not meeting in worship--Sunday.

*  The fact that you may tell me that in 125 A.D.  some Christians were worshiping on Sunday does not establish that  in the time of Paul,   (when writing to the Corinthians) the Christians were worshiping on Sunday. 

 

 

 

[Gustave]

On 7/15/2020 at 5:40 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

O.K,. Gustave, let us take a look at 1 Corinthians 16: 1 & 2:

*  I do not have any problem with stating that the day in question here is the 1st day of the week, that in English we call Sunday.  It is not Saturday.   This is beyond any reasonable question.

*  The Jewish system required both Tithe and other offerings.  One aspect of that system was not based upon a set amount.  Rather it consisted of a per-cent of one's net income after expenses had been deducted.  [NOTE:  I am aware of aspects of this that could be debated, but are not a part of this discussion.]

*  From the perspective of a per-cent of net income,  some computation of the net income was required.  An observant Jew would not be doing this on the Sabbath.  As you said, they would not even take up a collection on the Sabbath.  Personally, I think that your argument helps to establish that this 1st day of the week was not the worship day.

*  Coming from this background,  it is reasonable for Paul to be telling the Christians to do their computation of Tithe and offerings on  a day on which they are not meeting in worship--Sunday.

*  The fact that you may tell me that in 125 A.D.  some Christians were worshiping on Sunday does not establish that  in the time of Paul,   (when writing to the Corinthians) the Christians were worshiping on Sunday. 

 

 

 

My apologies for the late reply - I seem to not be able to stop getting assigned to tasks that occupy most of my free time. 

I'm willing to stipulate to your 1st point provided that you agree that Jews at the time of Christ, prior & after would never participate in a "collection" on the Sabbath day. I also agree that the 1st Christians (who were Jews) continued to partake in the ritual ceremonials of Judaism to include attending the Temple or Synagogue on the Sabbath however this is with the understanding that those same Christians would MEET SEPARATELY with other Christians and that day was indeed Sunday. 

Do SDA'S pass a collection plate when they have Church? If the answer to that question is a 'yes' my next question would be WHY, why do SDA's pass a collection plate around on Saturday? 

Would you (or other SDA's) agree that not one of the Apostles would have taken a collection on Saturday? I'm having difficulty in seeing how any of this would lend support for Sunday not being a day the Church met to do what Pliny the Younger said they did. 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

 

Gustave:  Your questions are good.

My response:

·          Jewish collection on the Sabbath:  Your information is new to me.  I did not know this.  As I said at 5:40AM on Wednesday, I believe that this information supports my position.  Thank you.

·          Apostles meeting on the Sabbath:   I also agree with you point that following the resurrection those early Christians would have meet separately from the traditional Jewish Sabbath congregation in a meeting with other Christians.

·          SDAs collecting on the Sabbath: Yes.  SDAs do not base their manner of Sabbath services on how the Jews worshiped on the Sabbath.  SDAS are informed by their reading of what we call the 4^th Commandment and you call the third Commandment.

 In actual fact, there are often major differences from congregation to congregation as to how the Sabbath is kept.  Probably some of those differences, such as the music in such a service would seem minor to you.  So, I will list some major differences:

1)       Recently, a SDA Congregation marched in a public demonstration on a current issue perceived to be an issue of justice, instead of having a standard worship service.

2)      Recently a SDA congregation, known tome, had some people skip the traditional Sabbath service to plant a tree.

3)      Once, I along with twenty some members skipped the traditional Sabbath service to trip through the near-by mountains on a trip led by a PhD, Geology professor.

4)      A congregation known to me, people occasionally skip the traditional Sabbath service to do things such as mow peoples lawns and more.

Gustave, the issue as to how, when and where the Sabbath was replaced by Sunday in the Christian Church is a complicated one.  As you well know, books have been written on the subject.  Anyone who states that either Constantine or the Pope changed it is taking a simplistic view that is not historically supported.  It is more involved than I will represent below.  But, my simplistic view is this:

·          Early on Christians probably celebrated the resurrection of Christ on Easter mornings which were on Sundays.

·         After a while Christians began to celebrate the resurrection on a weekly basis, rather than just on an annual basis.

·         In the beginning, this may have consisted of a Sabbath on what we now call Saturday, followed by a celebration on what we now call Sunday.

·         With the passage of time, the celebration of the Sabbath on Saturday stopped, while it continued with the Sunday celebration.

·         This occurred over a period of time and did not occur all at once in every part of the world.  So, in some paces while Christians may have been celebrating only on Sunday, in other palaces it may have included both Saturday and Sunday.

NOTE:  As I have said, this is a simplistic statement, and the actual process was more complex.

Your mention of Pliny the Younger is appropriate as well as that of other such people.  So, let us look at them in more detail:

·          The Epistle to the Magnesians:  Written by Ignatius a Bishop of Antioch somewhere around 150 AD.  The passage in Chapter 9 that has been translated as the “Lord’s Day” is subject to debate as to the actual wording, and is considered to be spurious by some. 

·         Pliny governor of Bithynia:  Written about 112 AD.  This passage does not clearly identify the exact day of the week cited.

·         The Epistle of Barnabas:  Could have been written about 115 AD, earlier or later.  The expression “The Lord’s Holy Day, could have referenced Sunday.

·         The Didache:  Written about 96 AD.  In the phrase “Lord’s day of the Lord,” the word “day” does not appear in the Greek and has been supplied by the translators.

·         Justin’s First Apology:  Believed to have been written about 155 AD.  It contains a clear reference to the day we call Sunday.  It is thought by some to apply to Christians in Rome, and by others to apply to Christians in Ephesus.

·         The Gospel of Peter:  An apocryphal work written probably about 155 AD, and clearly references Sunday.

·         The Acts of Peter:  An apocryphal work written about 200 AD which clearly cites Sunday.

·         The Acts of Paul: An apocryphal work possibly written about 190 AD,    It presents Paul in worships on the day prior to the day we call Sunday.

Gustave, the bottom line in the historical records present Sunday keeping as coming into Christianity well after the resurrection.  My presentation may be simplistic, as books have been written on this subject.   But, it is clear that it cannot be historically supported to say that Sunday cam in immediately after the resurrection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gustave]

On 7/18/2020 at 7:21 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

 

Gustave:  Your questions are good.

My response:

·          Jewish collection on the Sabbath:  Your information is new to me.  I did not know this.  As I said at 5:40AM on Wednesday, I believe that this information supports my position.  Thank you.

·          Apostles meeting on the Sabbath:   I also agree with you point that following the resurrection those early Christians would have meet separately from the traditional Jewish Sabbath congregation in a meeting with other Christians.

·          SDAs collecting on the Sabbath: Yes.  SDAs do not base their manner of Sabbath services on how the Jews worshiped on the Sabbath.  SDAS are informed by their reading of what we call the 4^th Commandment and you call the third Commandment.

 In actual fact, there are often major differences from congregation to congregation as to how the Sabbath is kept.  Probably some of those differences, such as the music in such a service would seem minor to you.  So, I will list some major differences:

1)       Recently, a SDA Congregation marched in a public demonstration on a current issue perceived to be an issue of justice, instead of having a standard worship service.

2)      Recently a SDA congregation, known tome, had some people skip the traditional Sabbath service to plant a tree.

3)      Once, I along with twenty some members skipped the traditional Sabbath service to trip through the near-by mountains on a trip led by a PhD, Geology professor.

4)      A congregation known to me, people occasionally skip the traditional Sabbath service to do things such as mow peoples lawns and more.

Gustave, the issue as to how, when and where the Sabbath was replaced by Sunday in the Christian Church is a complicated one.  As you well know, books have been written on the subject.  Anyone who states that either Constantine or the Pope changed it is taking a simplistic view that is not historically supported.  It is more involved than I will represent below.  But, my simplistic view is this:

·          Early on Christians probably celebrated the resurrection of Christ on Easter mornings which were on Sundays.

·         After a while Christians began to celebrate the resurrection on a weekly basis, rather than just on an annual basis.

·         In the beginning, this may have consisted of a Sabbath on what we now call Saturday, followed by a celebration on what we now call Sunday.

·         With the passage of time, the celebration of the Sabbath on Saturday stopped, while it continued with the Sunday celebration.

·         This occurred over a period of time and did not occur all at once in every part of the world.  So, in some paces while Christians may have been celebrating only on Sunday, in other palaces it may have included both Saturday and Sunday.

NOTE:  As I have said, this is a simplistic statement, and the actual process was more complex.

Your mention of Pliny the Younger is appropriate as well as that of other such people.  So, let us look at them in more detail:

·          The Epistle to the Magnesians:  Written by Ignatius a Bishop of Antioch somewhere around 150 AD.  The passage in Chapter 9 that has been translated as the “Lord’s Day” is subject to debate as to the actual wording, and is considered to be spurious by some. 

·         Pliny governor of Bithynia:  Written about 112 AD.  This passage does not clearly identify the exact day of the week cited.

·         The Epistle of Barnabas:  Could have been written about 115 AD, earlier or later.  The expression “The Lord’s Holy Day, could have referenced Sunday.

·         The Didache:  Written about 96 AD.  In the phrase “Lord’s day of the Lord,” the word “day” does not appear in the Greek and has been supplied by the translators.

·         Justin’s First Apology:  Believed to have been written about 155 AD.  It contains a clear reference to the day we call Sunday.  It is thought by some to apply to Christians in Rome, and by others to apply to Christians in Ephesus.

·         The Gospel of Peter:  An apocryphal work written probably about 155 AD, and clearly references Sunday.

·         The Acts of Peter:  An apocryphal work written about 200 AD which clearly cites Sunday.

·         The Acts of Paul: An apocryphal work possibly written about 190 AD,    It presents Paul in worships on the day prior to the day we call Sunday.

Gustave, the bottom line in the historical records present Sunday keeping as coming into Christianity well after the resurrection.  My presentation may be simplistic, as books have been written on this subject.   But, it is clear that it cannot be historically supported to say that Sunday cam in immediately after the resurrection.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd note that early Christians were meeting on Sunday and part of this "meeting" included the collection.

"as I have given order to the Churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the 1st day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store....."  1 Corinthians 16,1

What I'm saying that is that the Christians of the Apostolic era were assembling themselves together each Sunday. I'm not saying that the earliest Christians didn't go to the Temple in Jerusalem or a Synagogue on the Sabbath day - I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that the corporate worship of Christ by Christians took place on the same day that the Collection of the Saints took place, Sunday. 

There is zero doubt that Christian worship in the Church was "Liturgical" and given that Liturgical worship directed at Christ that approximated what the Jewish Temple Priests did  we can take it to the bank there was no liturgical worship of Christ in proximity of the Temple or in the proximity of any devout Jew for that matter as it would have been considered blasphemy of the highest order. Additionally Jews absolutely don't get DRUNK on Shabbat, period. Paul rebukes early Christians for Liturgical abuses he discovered going on in home Churches (1 Corinthians 11, 21...). 

I know of no historian Biblical or secular who denies that Christians were "assembling" for Christian assembly in the New Testament times. True, the earliest or original Christians were indeed still frequenting the Temple but again this isn't Christian assembly. Jesus told the Apostles that the time was coming when the Jews would KICK the Christians out of the Synagogues. Jesus was speaking directly to the Apostles here and it's reasonable and logical to conclude if Jesus said the Jews would kick Christians out of the Synagogues that's what was going to happen. 

If Christians were going to the Synagogues and Temple on the Sabbath and by Apostolic order were also "assembling as Christians" on Sunday AND the time comes when the Christians can no longer go to the Synagogues (because they were thrown out exactly as Jesus said would happen) is it logical to assume that Christians ignored the command to assemble as Christians on the 1st day of the week,  take up the collection. Has someone actually suggested that Christians started to hold Liturgical worship of Christ on the Sabbath after they were expelled from the Synagogues? 

 

[Gustave]

Had an opportunity to glance over some Jewish historian perspectives about the period between the death of Christ and St. Paul. It would appear that the Jewish perspective was that initially the Jewish people who accepted Christ continued to observe and keep the Law of Moses - at the time of Paul things rapidly started to change as "Christianity" started to include people who were never Jews and who didn't observe the Law of Moses. 

The Jewish Religious Authority at that time, through  THE TANNAIM started to crack down immediately after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. The very first thing the Jews did was standardize the current 18 Benedictions along with the Schema (basically the book of Jewish prayers) every devout Jew recited daily. In addition an old prayer was expanded to include an imprecation against Jews with "incorrect beliefs". This was certainly targeting Jewish Christians. It is after this that the Jews believed Paul opened the flood gates by bringing in Gentiles who were never Jews in the first place. These new Gentile Christians Paul had farmed had no expectation to observe those Laws that the Jews who accepted Christ followed. Things went down hill rapidly after the Gentiles entered the Church. 

It was interesting enough I may contact a Jewish resource and dig a little deeper.