Revelation by Dr. Sigve Tonstad

[Gail]

I am ready to toss out all my other books on Revelation.

This latest release from Dr. Tonstad is the easiest yet that explains that the book of Revelation is just that- a revelation of the character of God that sets the record straight

[BlessedMan]

Thanks for sharing this Gail. Where would one get this book from? Id be interested.

[Joel Melashenko]

I will be ordering this, I have a number of his books on my list. Thanks @Gail

[BlessedMan]

37 minutes ago, Joel Melashenko said:

I will be ordering this, I have a number of his books on my list. Thanks @Gail

Its actually available on Kindle! I just got a copy for $19.00

[Joel Melashenko]

37 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

Its actually available on Kindle! I just got a copy for $19.00

Very nice, thanks for the heads up 

[B/W Photodude]

I usually check out the background of an author, read some of their work and where it is posted, and even read some of the comments of their readers, With all that in mind, I will pass on this book.

[BlessedMan]

28 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

I usually check out the background of an author, read some of their work and where it is posted, and even read some of the comments of their readers, With all that in mind, I will pass on this book.

are you able to share your findings here? I did a little preliminary searching, and did not as of yet find anything super-concerning.

Have you read what he says re the Sabbath? Its seems pretty sound, and echoes thoughts I have personally had about the Sabbath myself.

https://atoday.org/a-whole-new-view-of-sabbath-dr-sigve-tonstad-presents-at-music-and-worship-conference/

Lack of our emphasis on the deliverance aspects of God and how the fourth commandment, as it reads in Deut is, IMO, a huge problem in the church. Over-emphasizing of any scripture, in ways that the Bible would never do is happening, and it is destroying the church from the inside out. BUT no one wants to change anything. It would seem that  Dr Sigve is not the actual problem here.

[BlessedMan]

23 hours ago, Gail said:

I am ready to toss out all my other books on Revelation.

Howdy Gail. I had a quick perusal of this book last night. I was wondering if you can offer any comment on why you have the urge to "toss out all your other books on revelation?"  After getting a surface impression of the book, I am left wondering why you were thinking that?

[BlessedMan]

On 6/28/2020 at 12:08 PM, Gail said:

I am ready to toss out all my other books on Revelation.

any way we can convince you to comment more on this? I wasnt asking to argue, just would like to know. Its actually quite a good book so far. I like the ways he says things:
 

Quote

 

When Jeremiah speaks of the fall of Babylon, he is referring to the military defeat of Jerusalem’s historic enemy (Jer. 50:2; 51:8). John’s “Babylon,” by contrast, is not an entity that can be fought in military terms, and this insight will strengthen in the exposé yet to come (18:1–24). Revelation is not indifferent to the demise of “Babylon” in absolute terms, but its main interest lies in the spiritual aspiration of “Babylon.” Babylon the Great . . . made all nations drink of the wine of her passionate immorality, says the second messenger (14:8b).

Tonstad, Sigve K.. Revelation (Paideia: Commentaries on the New Testament) (p. 206). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

He brings out some very important points that we sometimes tend to gloss over. The way he describes/contrasts the good and evil is spot on with what scripture tells us. IMO

[Gail]

On 6/28/2020 at 11:27 AM, BlessedMan said:

Thanks for sharing this Gail. Where would one get this book from? Id be interested.

Hmm, I can’t remember. I think I ordered it from Amazon

[Gail]

@BlessedMan

He writes well and I have some of his other books, too. I think what I appreciate best is his ability to leave off the Adventistspeak so that everyone can have a go at understanding the Revelation. He sees a bigger picture than just the nasty Catholics  or the bad Muslims (which causes some people to get a hate-on for those believers). 

If you don’t like Jon Paulien’s take on Revelation you probably won’t enjoy this, either, although I think that Tonstad reaches farther than Paulien.

He explores the concept of whether God is the sadistic despot many people fear after reading Revelation. I believe that who we believe God is will colour our own actions. Not only that, but I also believe that by misrepresenting God as vengeful and evil we make atheists of people.

A pastor told me that a problem with the traditional Adventist understanding is trying to fit the understanding into history; some points seem to be a stretch for him to explain to non-believers.
 

Without giving out too many spoilers I will stop here.

 

[phkrause]

I have a few different books on Revelation and Daniel, and find none of them to say nasty things about Catholics or anything about Muslims at all one way or the other! I have a SIL who's Catholic and she used to tell my Mom that we have to be Catholic to be able to go to heaven, yet she is one really beautiful Christian. I've also in my 60 years of being a SDA have never heard one sermon that made Catholics sound like bad people either. What I have heard is other denominations that have done so and also individual SDAs that have said things that were not very nice about Catholics. As far as Jon Paulien is concerned I understand that he's one of the top interpreters of Revelation?? Having said all that I pretty much enjoy all books on D&R!!

[BlessedMan]

10 hours ago, Gail said:

He explores the concept of whether God is the sadistic despot many people fear after reading Revelation. I believe that who we believe God is will colour our own actions. Not only that, but I also believe that by misrepresenting God as vengeful and evil we make atheists of people.

I agree, he does a nice job on that count. I also have Paulien's books and find strengths and weaknesses in them. Its more a question for me of which i want to talk about more.

10 hours ago, Gail said:

A pastor told me that a problem with the traditional Adventist understanding is trying to fit the understanding into history; some points seem to be a stretch for him to explain to non-believers.

I have heard claims like this before, have yet to find a really good explanation of same, with reliable references. I have done my own, independent research on this aspect, and find most of the "Adventist speak" to be true; however, there is that pesky little idea of what to we do with what we know, and how do we use it?

[Kevin H]

I have just finished reading this book. It is FANTASTIC!!! I'm not about to throw out my other books on Revelation (not that I have that many). I will confess that there is one which has dropped a notch or two (Kenneth H. Maahs "Of Angels, Beasts and Plagues") a good book but these next ones I will recommend are the "must reads." 

I usually say that if I want to study things out in commentaries I like to read the Anchor Bible, the Interpreter's Bible. The New International Bible Commentary, and the SDABC. But I'd like to make this recommendation for the study of Revelation: Dr. Tonstad's commentary, a hard to find book from the 1960s but which is a very thoughtful commentary on Revelation: George McCready Price "The Time of the End". The next is hard to find recordings but which float around, the "Last Days Event Seminar" from the 1976 Southern New England Campmeeting. I also got a copy of "The Great Courses" on the Apocalypses" by Craig Koester (He also wrote the Anchor Bible on Revelation, which Dr. Tonstad's resources.) If you can get these 4 resources you will have a fantastic foundation to teach Revelation to others. 

Koester's classes does more than cover the text but also gives a history of interpretations. I think that he could have also included how St. Augustine's views caused the church for centuries to not take Revelation seriously. He does mention some things that as Seventh-day Adventists find of interest; that is how Joachim of Flore's interpretation diverted from St. Augustine's and again got the church to look at Revelation and to use historism and through mostly the Franciscans, then into a Protestant Advent movement in England in the 1700s (which Sir. Isaac Newton was a part of), is were we got our traditional interpretations of Revelation. (Koester does more of a passing over without connecting the dots, but we as Adventists can see this. By the way, I don't think he mentioned this, maybe he did, but the official view of the Catholic church was that Joachim himself was NOT a heretic, but that his teachings are heresy and anyone who studies his work is a heretic. The way this view affected the Franciscans who loved his work is what opened the door to our typical Daniel and Revelation Seminar.)

[phkrause]

5 hours ago, Kevin H said:

The next is hard to find recordings but which float around, the "Last Days Event Seminar" from the 1976 Southern New England Campmeeting.

Kevin do you remember who was the speaker? I have the feeling that we were both there at the same time??

[Kevin H]

On 9/24/2020 at 6:35 PM, phkrause said:

Kevin do you remember who was the speaker? I have the feeling that we were both there at the same time??

John W. Wood. 

[Kevin H]

In the 1970s a "Last Day events seminars" or something like it were very popular and usually giving amazing facts on how the Catholics were about to take over and how current economics and politics was leading to imminent Sunday laws. But both George MaCready Price's book on Revelation, and Wood's Last Day Events seminar (with admitted influence from Price's book) are two that have not become ancient history without the current events at that time leading to the imminent take over of the world by the Catholics and the Sunday laws.

These two sources, one written about 50 something years ago, the other 44 years ago are just as fresh and relevant (except for the eventual fall of the USSR now being history) today as they were when first printed and recorded. And while he did not refer to either Price nor Wood, and not as scholarly as Price and Wood and is a bit weaker than Price and Wood, Dr. Richard Nies did a (much more lengthy) series of recordings which was surprisingly similar to Price and Wood, and being longer has more details and applications. Over these years I have very much appreciated having these 3 resources in studying Revelation.

Adding the two new references of the Lutheran Craig Koester (His study in Revelation on "the Great Cources" as well as the Anchor Bible on Revelation.--he also has a great courses that goes through the books of the Bible. Great to mix with Graham Maxwell's Book by book.) and Sigve Tonstad's commentary on Revelation has given us the opportunity to have an understanding of Revelation like no generation in the past.

I wish that the church would reprint Price's book, and that Wood's seminar was easier to get (and on CD), at least Nies is fairly easy to get through "Study Tapes". 

While not about Revelation as such, Dr. Jim Fleming's lecture on the Beatitudes is both a powerful study on the Sermon on the Mount, but he also gives some good advice about studying last day events. 

In my mind I can see a kit that I'd love to at least see in all of our churches and in as many homes as possible of a group of CD's starting (and ending? Well, at least encourage relistening to at the end) of Fleming's Beatitudes, Wood's "Last Day Events" Nies "Last Day events" (best to listen to Wood's first), and the DVD of Koester's Great Courses Revelation and his Anchor Bible and Tonatad's revelation. From these to either update, or make a second but deeper Revelation seminar. 

Revelation had things that could have happened back then, and through historisism, especially the study starting with Joachim of Fiore through mostly the Franciscans, and the affect it had on how the Reformers saw the Pope (despite them being otherwise Augustinian), and into the Advent movement in England in the 1700s and then to Miller. Remember that the Holy Spirit lets us know what WE need to know. As we start by looking at how God has lead us in the past, when it is time to learn more he will send us more light (as he did in the mid 1960s and 70s with Price's book, Wood's and Nie's seminars, which we need to get back to, and today with Koester and even more so Tonstand) as we need it. 

  

[BlessedMan]

On 9/29/2020 at 9:48 PM, Kevin H said:

Remember that the Holy Spirit lets us know what WE need to know. As we start by looking at how God has lead us in the past, when it is time to learn more he will send us more light (as he did in the mid 1960s and 70s with Price's book, Wood's and Nie's seminars, which we need to get back to, and today with Koester and even more so Tonstand) as we need it. 

Yes, I agree. The things we have been taught do not have an expiry date per se. We simply add to them what God tells us to. But we don't cancel it.  As we study more, and pray more, God's Word literally unfolds and  sets the stage for "all things becoming new." (2 Cor 5:17).

I really like this book by Tonstand because he has dared to go where few have ever gone before. When he talks about "The Everlasting Gospel," he talks much more about Jesus than he does the mark of the beast drama. The emphasis in all the prophecies is Jesus. We are not even close to preaching the message (not messages) of The Three Angels if the beast watching holds the majority of our attention.

Quote

God's ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought can reach. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." This command is a promise. The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep people from sinning.  {DA 311.2} 

Tonstand says it like this:
 

Quote

 

Paideia means instruction intended for a person who is in the process of growing up. Whether in secular or biblical usage the term has a practical bent: genuine paideia enables a person to exercise discernment and make good choices amid life’s array of competing options. Given that “growing up” is a lifelong project, grasping the paideia of Revelation might well be, too. {Tonstad, Sigve K.. Revelation (Paideia: Commentaries on the New Testament) (p. xi). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.}

 

Growing up into Christ is what the everlasting gospel is about. And thats what Tonstand's book is all about, within the context of "the revelation of Jesus Christ." (Rev 1:1)

[Kevin H]

Someone reprinted George McCready Price's "The Time of the End" !!!

https://www.amazon.com/Time-End-George-McCready-Price/dp/B093RTJP1B

I made a partial list above, but there is a Revelation study set I'd like to see us read and have:

1.) If someone does not have an Adventist background maybe start with C. M. Maxwell's "God Cares" vol 2. But to build on to this

2.) Price's book "The Time of the End"

3.) While not dealing with Revelation itself, Jim Fleming's lecture on the Beatitudes gives some good ideas to remember when studying eschatology, no matter what our religious background and approach.

4.) Then John Wood's "Last Day Events Seminar" 1976 Southern New England Campmeeting.

5.) Richard Nies "Eschatology" http://www.pineknoll.org/all-audio-resources (about 1/4 of the way down the page) Again, Nies does make the mistake of taking the phrase about the plagues falling in a day, in an hour to make a day=year application so sees Satan as wanting to have a year, but God will only allow two weeks. Wood points out that the context does not support the day/year principle, but is a typical Greek way of saying "In a short time." 

6.) Tonstad's commentary on Revelation 

7.) Craig Koester's Great Courses on the Apocalypse (look for it on sale. A few times a year you can get the DVDs for about $69.00 give or take) https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/apocalypse-controversies-and-meaning-in-western-history

8.) Craig Koester's commentary on Revelation from the Anchor Bible:  https://www.amazon.com/Revelation-Translation-Introduction-Commentary-Commentaries/dp/0300216912/ref=sr_1_3?crid=J8SS799RAVDU&keywords=craig+koester&qid=1662002417&s=books&sprefix=Craig+Ko%2Cstripbooks%2C147&sr=1-3  (Hey, looking this up I see that he has another book on Revelation: Revelation and the End of All Things https://www.amazon.com/Revelation-End-Things-Craig-Koester/dp/0802875785/ref=sr_1_1?crid=J8SS799RAVDU&keywords=craig+koester&qid=1662002554&s=books&sprefix=Craig+Ko%2Cstripbooks%2C147&sr=1-1 )

Now, I don't know how easy it is to get Fleming's lecture or Wood's lectures, but I cannot recommend getting all 8 (9) of these resources. Contact me and I'll see if I can help with the Fleming and Wood recordings. Now, I have not read enough in Jon Pauline's book to know if I should recommend it as well, but I've liked much of what I've read from Pauline.  At least try to start out with Price Time of the end Wood "Last day events" and Nies "Eschatology"  and Tonstad's "Revelation" you will not be sorry.