Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted June 23, 2006 Members Posted June 23, 2006 What is so wrong about *self*? If having a self is bad, then why did God create humans with one? Did Jesus have a self? I have heard a number of sermons on *dying to self*... people give examples of how self takes over in situations - like getting frustrated at slow drivers in front of you. I keep thinking, "So what's wrong with being frustrated???" I can't imagine being around someone who always has some contented angelic look on his/her face...I mean, even Jesus got angry, He cried, and even though I don't think the Bible says it, I'm sure He laughed too. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> The whole dying-to-self thing has never made much sense to me. It is not a joyful concept, at least in how it's ever been presented to me. In fact, the concept always ends up making me feel like dirt and totally worthless. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Moderators Gerr Posted June 23, 2006 Moderators Posted June 23, 2006 I recall a quote from EGW in the book Education, "Every human being created in the image of God is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator - individuality, power to think and to do." If by self you mean individuality, then, yes, it is a perfectly good word. God is not a cookie-cutter, making cookies all the same, without self or individuality. I have read that not even two particles of snow are alike. Self becomes bad only when it becomes exulted as the center of the universe. That is what happened to Lucifer when the, "I" became the over-ruling concern. He infected the human race with the same virus, and that is why the natural self has to die because of this deadly virus. The Holy Spirit brings forth a new creature, a new "self" created in the image of God in the new birth, which becomes more and more like God as it matures. I hope that helps. Gerry Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted June 23, 2006 Author Members Posted June 23, 2006 Maybe I don't understand what people are talking about when Christianity talks about *self.* []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/] To me, self refers to someone's personhood...what makes me *me* - and to repeatedly get told I need to get rid of it...well....me isn't exactly the greatest thing in the world, but it's the only *me* I have. If by *self* Christians are talking about overactive and damaging pride, then why don't folks just say it that way? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> (maybe this is one of the Christianese *code words*?) Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Clio Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Pam - Some people go overboard on this *self* business. Mostly, I think, because humanity tends to vilify what they are afraid of. We were created with a sense of self, a need to have healthy self-esteem based on our knowledge of who we are. Abba doesn't want a bunch of automatons. However, in a sinful nature, which we all have since Adam's fall, self doesn't want to be in a healthy, subordinate relationship to Abba and True Jesus. ANYTHING that takes over First Place in our life, the place that rightfully belongs to our Creator, is *dirty*. But most will not recognize when something moves into that place in their life. It's so much easier to observe someone else, and tell them they need to "die to self" or not "be so selfish", or on and on and on. As long as self is truly subordinate and surrendered to True Jesus, there is nothing wrong, and every thing right, with self. Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Moderators Gerr Posted June 23, 2006 Moderators Posted June 23, 2006 The "self" that must die is the self that is born of flesh & blood. The "self" that is to be affirmed is the new "self" that is born from above, created in the image of God. Gerry Quote
Dr. Shane Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Christ did get angry and sad but let's look at why. Why did Christ get angry? Was it not because He saw the vendors outside the temple cheating the people and disgracing the Father? Why did He get angry at the Pharisees? Was it not because they were taking advantage of the widows and laying burdons on the people that they themselves would not bear? Jesus got angry when He saw other people getting hurt. Sinful man gets angry when he or she gets hurt. Someone cuts me off on the expressway and self raises its ugly head because I am offended. If some hits me, steals from me, lies to me, insults me, cheats me, etc., I get angry. How did Jesus react when they hurt Him? He prayed, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." What a contrast between sinful man and his sinless Example. Christ tells us the first shall be last and the last shall be first. He tells us not to sit at the head of the table. He gives us the example of the suffering Servant. He humbled Himself to wash the diciples feet and humbled Himself to the cross. Christ bore no evidence of self in his human life among us. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Robert Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> rudywoofs said: What is so wrong about *self*? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I think you are associating "self" with individuality like "yourself." There's only one Pam, hence that's your identity. There's nothing wrong here. When I use the word "self" I am speaking of an attitude - a state of mind. I am talking about our preoccupation with ourselves. So dying to self means thinking less of "self" (ourselves) and placing this misguided love towards others. Robert Quote
Amelia Posted June 24, 2006 Posted June 24, 2006 Wow Rob, I agree with you on this one.LOL Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p>
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted June 24, 2006 Moderators Posted June 24, 2006 Robert clearly gave a good call on that one. Quote Gregory
cleverdics Posted June 24, 2006 Posted June 24, 2006 Interesting topic Pam <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I don't trust my "self". I can look back at my life and see so many mistakes that I have made my 'self'. That is what now drives me to the Holy Spirit in the hope that He will helf me make better discisions. I don't think I can die to self, I don't think I can kill my self, that part of me that wants to be in control of everything. Again, I believe God can do this for me. All I can do is sit with God, read the Bible and pray everyday and trust that God will be in control. I have made so many discisions in the past, to live better, eat better, work better etc, etc. like new years resolutions, and all they breed in me is self disappointment. But with God, I believe I can do anything. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/luxhello.gif" alt="" /> But I must practice. If God tells me not to eat it, say it, do it, touch it, I have to obey. The more I obey, the more He will give me. That's what I think. Quote Being Christian is really simple. Look after your family and your mates, feel sorry for the idiots and leave the rest up to God. She'll be right mate!
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted June 24, 2006 Author Members Posted June 24, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> When I use the word "self" I am speaking of an attitude - a state of mind. I am talking about our preoccupation with ourselves. So dying to self means thinking less of "self" (ourselves) and placing this misguided love towards others. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> That's altruism, isn't it? []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/] Why don't people just say what they mean??? I get really tired of hearing things couched in ethereal language. It wears me out trying to figure out what the heck is actually being said. And it makes me feel like I'm still an *outsider.* <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Dr. Shane Posted June 24, 2006 Posted June 24, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> altruism n : the quality of unselfish concern for the welfare of others <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Sounds like Jesus. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Robert Posted June 24, 2006 Posted June 24, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> rudywoofs said: That's altruism, isn't it? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> "The view that the well-being of others should have as much importance for us as the well-being of ourselves." Ah, but what if it comes down to your well being vs. the well being of another? Rob Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted June 24, 2006 Author Members Posted June 24, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Robert said: "The view that the well-being of others should have as much importance for us as the well-being of ourselves." Ah, but what if it comes down to your well being vs. the well being of another? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I would think that it ceases to be altruism when the well-being of one person is *pitted against* the well-being of another person. It has morphed into a subjective ethics dilemma. []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/hammerHead.gif[/] Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Robert Posted June 24, 2006 Posted June 24, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> rudywoofs said: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Robert said: "The view that the well-being of others should have as much importance for us as the well-being of ourselves." Ah, but what if it comes down to your well being vs. the well being of another? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I would think that it ceases to be altruism when the well-being of one person is *pitted against* the well-being of another person. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Everyone is wanting the same things: security, money, health care, etc, etc. People go to all types of lengths to make sure their needs are satisfied. Don't you see that as being "pitted against" one another? I'm sure you've heard the expression, "It's a dog eat dog world"? Rob Quote
Dr. Shane Posted June 24, 2006 Posted June 24, 2006 Each dollar I spend on my family is one less dollar that I can spend helping someone else. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted June 24, 2006 Author Members Posted June 24, 2006 Oh. So self is the wicked evil stepchild of Uncle Money? Guess what....even if you kill that wicked evil stepchild, Uncle Money will still be there. Everyone does NOT *want* the same things. There are certain basic life NEEDS of a person - food, shelter, clothing. Perhaps love - I haven't figured out if that is in the *needs* or the *wants* column. What one person does with his/her money is his/her own business. I'm getting the impression that I'm being baited. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Robert Posted June 24, 2006 Posted June 24, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> rudywoofs said: Oh. So self is the wicked evil stepchild of Uncle Money? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Here's some good advice from Paul on this subject: 1 Tim 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. [Or course our human natures wouldn't be very content with just food and clothing, huh?] 9 People who want to get rich [get lots of that green stuff] fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money [and money is power] is the root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith [i.e., they have left Christ] and pierced themselves with many griefs. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Everyone does NOT *want* the same things. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Human nature (and we all have one) is at best self-seeking. All of us, in one way or the other, are selfish. Yes, by God's grace we can be less selfish, but nonetheless we still aren't measuring up when compared to God's love. But no worries, that's why I have accepted Jesus Christ by faith. "In Him" I am complete and that's good news for a sinner like myself. Rob Quote
Dr. Shane Posted June 24, 2006 Posted June 24, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> So self is the wicked evil stepchild of Uncle Money? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Well.......... Poor people can be selfish too. And......... prisoners locked away with absolutely no money can be selfish too. Often times a husband can be selfish with his time by denying his wife the time he should give her. In the same way a parent can be selfish with time and deny thier children. Yes... a believer can also deny God time He deserves. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
bevin Posted June 24, 2006 Posted June 24, 2006 Actually, the Bible teaches to us to love ourselves as much as we love everyone else. That is hardly dying to self! As usual, there is a certain amount of motivating people by making them feel guilty, so they can be manipulated to do what the organization/preacher wants them to do. /Bevin Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted June 24, 2006 Author Members Posted June 24, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> bevin said: Actually, the Bible teaches to us to love ourselves as much as we love everyone else. That is hardly dying to self! As usual, there is a certain amount of motivating people by making them feel guilty, so they can be manipulated to do what the organization/preacher wants them to do. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> ::nods:: I was kinda wondering about that.. The whole *dying-to-self* concept reminds me uncomfortably of Karl Marx' classic line: "Religion is the opium of the people." Sometimes I think he was right. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Dr. Shane Posted June 24, 2006 Posted June 24, 2006 Some find the idea of dying to self so repugnant they simply cannot grasp it. It is a cross that is too heavy for some to bare. "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" Matt. 16:24-26 "And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all." Mark 9:35 Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Moderators Gerr Posted June 25, 2006 Moderators Posted June 25, 2006 The "self" born of flesh and blood cannot do that. At best it not only loves "self" but loves only those who love love his "self". It takes a new creation from above to love the neighbor's "self" as much as one loves one's "self". Gerry Quote
Robert Posted June 25, 2006 Posted June 25, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Gerry Cabalo said:to love the neighbor's "self" as much as one loves one's "self". <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> That’s not what the Bible teaches, but I’ll keep quite because you won’t listen. Rob Quote
Robert Posted June 25, 2006 Posted June 25, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> bevin said:Actually, the Bible teaches to us to love ourselves as much as we love everyone else. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> No it doesn't! Quote
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