To doubt or not to doubt - is it a sin?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Is doubt/lack of faith a sin? It doesn't seem right to me that a person should be condemned for having doubts about spiritual things. People always seem to look at the disciple Thomas as being a bad example because he doubted, but was he truly a bad example?

I have lots of doubts. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And I've been told that because I have doubt then that's the reason the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in me. But I just don't see how a person can make a choice not to doubt...or make a choice to have faith. I just don't get it.. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I don't WANT to doubt - it just seems to be there whether I want it or not.

[Gregory Matthews]

Honest questions/doubts are good. Honest ones are looking for truth. They are good.

[Gail]

A good thing to do with this might be to do a topical study of what Jesus said about faith and go from there

[Pockey]

This might be helpful Pam:

What to do with doubt - Steps to Christ Ch 12.

[Robert]

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rudywoofs said: Is doubt/lack of faith a sin?

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It depends on the object of your doubt. Never doubt Christ's love for you (even when you are bad) and never doubt that you stand perfect "in Christ". He's your only hope. In fact ALL of heaven is on your side. Keep the faith!

Here's Paul:

Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren (Sisters included), lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end....

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

People that should have doubts don't seem to have any. I think of Jehova Witnesses, Mormons, Islamics, etc.

I have to honestly admit that I have doubts. When I exam the all the evidence the scale tips in the favor of what I believe. But I still have doubts.

I tend to scratch me head and wonder about those that don't have doubts.

Now doubting Thomas is a different story. He walked and lived with Christ. He saw His miracles and had no reason to believe the other apostles were lying about what they said.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That makes me feel better.. it hasn't been a particularly peaceful idea going through my mind that I was being eternally damned for my questions and doubts.. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

from "What to do with doubt" - Steps to Christ Ch 12.:

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To acknowledge that we cannot fully comprehend the great truths of the Bible is only to admit that the finite mind is inadequate to grasp the infinite; that man, with his limited, human knowledge, cannot understand the purposes of Omniscience.

Because they cannot fathom all its mysteries, the skeptic and the infidel reject God's word; and not all who profess to believe the Bible are free from danger on this point. The apostle says, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Hebrews 3:12. It is right to study closely the teachings of the Bible and to search into "the deep things of God" so far as they are revealed in Scripture. 1 Corinthians 2:10. While "the secret things belong unto the Lord our God," "those things which are revealed belong unto us." Deuteronomy 29:29. But it is Satan's work to pervert the investigative powers of the mind. A certain pride is mingled with the consideration of Bible truth, so that men feel impatient and defeated if they cannot explain every portion of Scripture to their satisfaction. It is too humiliating to them to acknowledge that they do not understand the inspired words. They are unwilling to wait patiently until God shall see fit to reveal the truth to them. They feel that their unaided human wisdom is sufficient to enable them to comprehend the Scripture, and failing to do this, they virtually deny its authority. It is true that many theories and doctrines popularly supposed to be derived from the Bible have no foundation in its teaching, and indeed are

contrary to the whole tenor of inspiration. These things have been a cause of doubt and perplexity to many minds. They are not, however, chargeable to God's word, but to man's perversion of it.

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Is the above really true? Is the Bible not comprehensible to people unless God reveals it to them? If I don't understand something is it because God is prohibiting me from understanding? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I mean, I guess it's okay if that's how God wants it. It just seems very odd to get told to read the Bible, then not understand it, then get told I don't understand because God doesn't want me to. []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/] <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Morning Glory]

Hi Pam,

I read an article in the Review recently about "doubting Thomas" that portrayed him in a very different light from what we have been taught about him (which has always been negative). Basically, Thomas was not going to believe something just because someone said that he should. Even if the someone was a close friend. He was one who studied things for himself before he came to a conclusion.

It is NOT a bad thing to not be totally convinced just because someone "said so". It is positive to have healthy doubt.....in otherwords, not be gullible. I don't believe that God wants us to blindly believe things without studying them out for ourselves. IMO that is how people get caught up in cults and other mind control situations.

In regard to not understanding the Bible. Oh boy, have I ever been there!! Read the words, but the understanding just escapes me!! I remember very clearly reading a passage once and just not "getting it." So, after about the 3rd or 4th reading, I asked for the Holy Spirit to help me understand what I was reading..... it was AMAZING!! Like night and day, like a thick film had been removed from my mind or something. I highly recommend trying it for yourself!!

I sincerely believe that God DOES want us to understand scripture!! But, as the quote states, sometimes we just don't get it on our own. That isn't God wanting to hide something from us. Just the result of our sinful human nature. I think that what she is trying to say in the passage is "don't be too proud to ask God's Spirit to help you understand."

I hope that that helps.

Morning Glory

[aldona]

Thank you for that, Morning Glory...I have always drawn a lot of comfort from the story of Doubting Thomas, because I am the sort of person whose brain is just not "wired" to experience religious things...I feel nothing in worship, I have never heard God speak or had a vision, and I have sat right next to people who were demonically possessed and speaking in different voices and felt nothing out of the ordinary. (While my atheist friends who were sitting in the same room were totally freaked out.)

When people talk about "having a relationship with Christ" or "experiencing the presence of God" I nod my head like a good little Christian but in all honesty I do not have the faintest idea what they are talking about or what it is that I should be doing or looking for.

(now, music and nature...that's different...instead of suppressing those thoughts as "New Agey" I am starting to realize that maybe, just maybe, the fact that I get goose bumps when listening to a particular piece of music or see a beautiful scene, is the way that God communicates with my particular set of brain cells. But it's been a long road...)

I'm the sort of person who has a very concrete mind - if I can't see it, hear it, touch it and taste it then it doesn't exist. And if I can, then I often come up with a rational explanation why.

This has been a source of endless frustration and disappointment to me in my "spiritual" walk (if I indeed have one). But I have always looked at the example of Thomas and been comforted by the fact that Jesus did not rebuke him, or reject him, but gave him the tangible information that he needed in order to believe.

Can't prove it from the Bible, but early Christian tradition states that Thomas later went on to preach the gospel in what is now India, and introduced Christianity to that part of the world. So God can use even those of us who are full of doubts!

enough end-of-the-week rambling from me... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/soapbox.gif" alt="" />

aldona

[Robert]

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aldona said: So God can use even those of us who are full of doubts!

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<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Dr. Shane]

I think Jesus chastised Thomas pretty good so I am a bit hesitant to spin his doubt into being a good thing.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I might be wrong, but wasn't Thomas the only person who actually got to touch Jesus after His resurrection?? And wasnt' *that* because Jesus understood Thomas' doubts and what was needed to quell them? I think that's rather cool.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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aldona said:

When people talk about "having a relationship with Christ" or "experiencing the presence of God" I nod my head like a good little Christian but in all honesty I do not have the faintest idea what they are talking about or what it is that I should be doing or looking for.

(now, music and nature...that's different...instead of suppressing those thoughts as "New Agey" I am starting to realize that maybe, just maybe, the fact that I get goose bumps when listening to a particular piece of music or see a beautiful scene, is the way that God communicates with my particular set of brain cells. But it's been a long road...)

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Geez, Aldona. ::passes cuppa tea to Aldona:: []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/tea.gif[/] That's exactly how I feel.

Not too long ago I mentioned to a pastor about how I could see God in nature. I immediately got hit with *you're still a pantheist!* []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_rolleyes.gif[/] Made me feel kinda bad - guilty even - at the time.

This morning I was reading about Jairus plea for Jesus to come heal his daughter. When the people came from his house and told Jairus that his daughter had died and not to bother Jesus anymore, the Bible reports that </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Ignoring what they said, Jesus told the synagogue ruler, "Don't be afraid; just believe."

Mark 5:36

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I kinda like the first part of the verse: "Ignoring what they said" ... That's hard to do for me, though - hard to know what to believe and what not to believe. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[David Koot]

I think God takes us where we are at, and works with us as we are able to receive it. The New Jerusalem has twelve gates. Each of the redeemed will enter the City through one of those gates. There is room for different types of people in God's kingdom. Some, like Peter, charge ahead. Others, like Thomas, take longer to sort things through. Jesus is able to temper a Peter's impetuousness and make it a blessing rather than a liability. Jesus can take a Thomas' need to sort things through and process, and make it a blessing too. In fact, often it is good for a Peter and a Thomas to work together. They tend to balance each other.

Dave

[Robert]

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rudywoofs said:...Jesus understood Thomas' doubts and what was needed to quell them? I think that's rather cool.

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Context:

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I shall see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.

Thomas didn't have doubts in believing in Christ for his ticket to heaven. His doubt was in believing that the other disciples had actually seen the risen Savior.

Yes...our faith fluctuates, but we should never doubt that Jesus is Lord. Why? Because of all the sins Christ took to the cross, He didn't die for one sin - the sin of unbelief.

Rob

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I never thought of it that way, Dave. []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/cool_shades.gif[/]

[Planey]

The New Jerusalem is a square. Twelve gates implies three on each side. Now perhaps those people entering into a gate near a corner may notice gates on another side of the city other than the side which contains "their" gate. However those entering gates in the centre of a side would think that their side is the side.

This may be important for those among us who believe that they are right!!!, that they understand everything correctly and it is their God-appointed duty to show the rest of us the error of our ways and how theirs is the only way to rightly understand things.

Such people sadly believe that their way is the Way, the Truth and the Life. They have lost sight of the fact that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

So God, in His mercy, allows these people to believe that they were correct all along. However there are still twelve gates, whether these insular "I know the true way" people understand this or not.

Graeme

[Robert]

Speculation

[Gail]

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Not too long ago I mentioned to a pastor about how I could see God in nature. I immediately got hit with *you're still a pantheist!* Made me feel kinda bad - guilty even - at the time.

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Pam, just because God is not a leaf or a bird doesn't mean that you haven't seen God's handiwork. Solomon was the wisest man on earth and he studied nature to learn of God. Jesus repeatedly used illustrations to teach of His heavenly Father and His ways.

EGW called nature God's second book, after the Bible. Of course people can learn of God's love through the things that He made, imperfect though they be.

Sounds like the pastor you were talking to missed an opportunity to explain how this works in a sense of meditating upon the Creator...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Isn't a part of God *in* His creations? His fingerprint, at least? []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/] (Maybe I've got really warped ideas about nature..)

[Gail]

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rudywoofs said:

Isn't a part of God *in* His creations? His fingerprint, at least? (Maybe I've got really warped ideas about nature..)

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I guess that could be as much as there is a part of you in a piece of art you have created- do you understand what I mean? His fingerprint would be a good term. The Creator of the work is higher than the work itself, but you can indeed see some of the character of the Creator in the creation.

[aldona]

just joining in here, not a response to anyone in particular:

Here's a quote -

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. -- Bertrand Russell

[Robert]

"the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea driven and tossed by the wind"--James

[bevin]

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Now doubting Thomas is a different story. He walked and lived with Christ. He saw His miracles and had no reason to believe the other apostles were lying about what they said.

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He probably had my experience of walking with fellow christians. He may have seen them being gullible, jumping to conclusions (often incorrect), exagerating, missing out important details, or making claims about things that simply did not stand up to close examination.

For instance, I was friends with a son of an SDA missionary to the South Pacific. Through them I learned that some of the stories about people being brought back to life from the dead in that part of the world were simply because the culture didn't have a strong distinction between dead, likely to die, and unconscious.

Time after time I have heard Christian preachers say things that I know are false.

It's not that they deliberately lie. They just have very low standards for verification. Anything that suits their cause that is not obviously false to them must be true.

/Bevin

[cleverdics]

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rudywoofs said:

Is doubt/lack of faith a sin? It doesn't seem right to me that a person should be condemned for having doubts about spiritual things. People always seem to look at the disciple Thomas as being a bad example because he doubted, but was he truly a bad example?

I have lots of doubts. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And I've been told that because I have doubt then that's the reason the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in me. But I just don't see how a person can make a choice not to doubt...or make a choice to have faith. I just don't get it.. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I don't WANT to doubt - it just seems to be there whether I want it or not.

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Hey Pam

My middle name is Thomas, literal <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />y What does that tell you? I think the truth is important to those of us who doubt. God knows our hearts. He let Thomas touch His wounds to help him deal with the doubts. I dont' think it is doubt that keeps the Holy Spirit out of us. I think it is idol worship, spending time and attention on things that lead to nothing like money and stuff. Paul says this in Romans 1,2. I, like you, do not think it is possible to stop yourself doubting. That is like stoping yourself remembering. Do you know the old saying, forgive and forget. Well, can anyone make themself forget? It is a rubbish saying. We can forgive, but we cannot forget.

So I say go ahead and doubt, and Read the Bible and Pray while you are doing it and don't let anything get in the way of that. Another old saying, Practice makes Perfect. I believe that <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Everyday