Origin of Catholic Church

[stinsonmarri]

On 1/23/2021 at 12:13 AM, Gustave said:

Had you been a Jew living at the time of Christ when He said what He did to Peter there would be no doubt in your mind. 

More on this soon, I'm too tired to share what little I know at this time. 

First, YAHSHUA never talked to a Jew. That word was created by Europeans in the middle Ages.

Malina has some support in this translation from a leading scholar of the ancient historian Josephus. Steve Mason, another participant in this forum, suggests the translation of “Judeans” for the Greek term Ioudaioi in Josephus’s writings. The trouble is that the Greek word Ioudaios is not just one thing or another. It has multiple senses and we have to make a call on how to translate this word. Strictly speaking, “Jew,” in English, is just a contraction (i.e., “Ju”) of the term that in western Europe became dispersed into other tongues via Latin: Judeus. The Greek word Ioudaios is a rendering of Hebrew Yehudi, or Aramaic Yehuda`i, a term essentially defining the ethnic group descended from the patriarch Judah, who gave his name to their tribal territory, Judah, which was then expanded through conquest in the 2nd and 1st centuries BCE and designated in Latin as “Judea.” The Ioudaioi are indeed Judeans. People could be included within the Judean ethnic group (ethnos) by marriage and/or by following Jewish/Judean law. “Judean” and “Jew”, Jesus and Paul – Joan Taylor

This Yudean did not start until after the fall of the Temple and the Pharisees took over. This is Rabbinical Judean and not during the time of YAHSHUA. YAHSHUA has always named HIS people IsraEL since the time that Jacob overcame his sins. That was the night he wrestle with THE ANGEL. The word IsraEL mean to overcome and all who now will be called IsraEL. They will go overcome like IsraEL son's. They are called IsraEL in Rev 7. YAHWEH said my people shall all be a part of HIS HOUSE! All will take on this name who overcome. 

All HE told Peter was that he would lead the disciples and he did. Then James did after Peter but no where did Peter get the honor of always being over the assembly YAHSHUA is THE FOUNDATION, THE CORNERSTONE. No earthly sinful man could have that privilege except THE ONE who came and died, without sin. Please read your Bible

[phkrause]

18 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

All HE told Peter was that he would lead the disciples and he did. Then James did after Peter but no where did Peter get the honor of always being over the assembly YAHSHUA is THE FOUNDATION, THE CORNERSTONE. No earthly sinful man could have that privilege except THE ONE who came and died, without sin. Please read your Bible

Exactly!!

[Gustave]

On 2/2/2021 at 12:43 PM, stinsonmarri said:

You need to explain what you mean. This is very vague.

 

That Scripture isn't vague and my summary of it is even less.

The early Church was as Apostolic as it was authoritative. 

[Gustave]

23 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

First, YAHSHUA never talked to a Jew. That word was created by Europeans in the middle Ages.

 

Jesus was a Jew, used Jewish Idioms & absolutely talked to MANY Jew's. The Black Israelite / Nation of Islam arguments don't hold any water with me. 

[stinsonmarri]

9 hours ago, Gustave said:

That Scripture isn't vague and my summary of it is even less.

The early Church was as Apostolic as it was authoritative. 

Provide the Scriptures!

[Gustave]

On 2/4/2021 at 3:32 AM, stinsonmarri said:

Provide the Scriptures!

Bill goes to the Full Gospel Church of the Living God and he has a Brother named Bob who goes to The Lamb of God Church on 2nd Ave. These two Brothers have a friend named Ted who thinks Bill & Bob are nuts for not attending his Church called the Berean Bible Fellowship Church. 

Matthew: 18, 15: 

Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Stinsonmarri, would you accept orders from my Church pertaining to somethin you should or shouldn't do or the position you should take on a particular matter? No, you wouldn't - just like Ted could care less about what Bill or Bob's Church said about a personal squabble involving the three of them. 

Jesus' statement in Matthew 18 requires ONE Church that would render an authoritative statement accepted by all parties involved. The same thing is found in Acts 15 when we read that certain people within the Church DIDN'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY to teach and were in fact circulating teachings that subverted peoples souls. 

Take today's situation of thousands of different Churches and move it back to the time of Jesus' statement in Matthew 18 - you'll find Jesus' statement wouldn't make any sense if at that time multiple Churches teaching different things existed. That's two Biblical examples of authority right there with one of them coming directly from Jesus. 

Apostolic Succession is throughout the New Testament and a well known one would be 2nd Timothy 2 - That's three generations of Apostolic Succession right there. 

 

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 2/5/2021 at 9:26 AM, Gustave said:

Bill goes to the Full Gospel Church of the Living God and he has a Brother named Bob who goes to The Lamb of God Church on 2nd Ave. These two Brothers have a friend named Ted who thinks Bill & Bob are nuts for not attending his Church called the Berean Bible Fellowship Church. 

Matthew: 18, 15: 

Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Stinsonmarri, would you accept orders from my Church pertaining to somethin you should or shouldn't do or the position you should take on a particular matter? No, you wouldn't - just like Ted could care less about what Bill or Bob's Church said about a personal squabble involving the three of them. 

Jesus' statement in Matthew 18 requires ONE Church that would render an authoritative statement accepted by all parties involved. The same thing is found in Acts 15 when we read that certain people within the Church DIDN'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY to teach and were in fact circulating teachings that subverted peoples souls. 

Take today's situation of thousands of different Churches and move it back to the time of Jesus' statement in Matthew 18 - you'll find Jesus' statement wouldn't make any sense if at that time multiple Churches teaching different things existed. That's two Biblical examples of authority right there with one of them coming directly from Jesus. 

Apostolic Succession is throughout the New Testament and a well known one would be 2nd Timothy 2 - That's three generations of Apostolic Succession right there. 

 

 

 

If you would take the time and note for reference to read the whole thought you would fair well, Gustave:

And if your brother sins against you, go and convict him, between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word might be established. And if he refuses to hear them, say it to the assembly. And if he refuses even to hear the assembly, let him be to you like the nations and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be having been bound in Heaven, and whatever you loosen on earth shall be having been loosened in Heaven. Again, I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning any matter that they ask, it shall be done for them by MY FATHER in the Heavens. For where two or three are gathered together in MY NAME, there I am in their midst.” Mat 18:15-20

Stinsonmarri, would you accept orders from my Church pertaining to somethin you should or shouldn't do or the position you should take on a particular matter? No, you wouldn't - just like Ted could care less about what Bill or Bob's Church said about a personal squabble involving the three of them. 

First, I truly do not understand your logic in this statement. Secondly, I do not take orders from the church. That is not what is meant in the above Scriptures. The authority comes from THE FATHER through the Torah or Bible. The theme word is sin. What is sin, breaking the Commandments of YAHWEH!  What is bound on the earth, must first be bound in Heaven. If someone's continue to sin against you, then get two witness and they continue bring them before the assembly. If they will stand firm in YAHSHUA'S  NAME, then you treat him like not an enemy but like you would treat your neighbor. Nothing indicates any shame, casting out but let him be. We will not include him in prayer or anything related to the subject matter related to YAHSHUA. He do not want to take part anyways, so, dealt kindly with him on things that are not spiritual.

Nothing in Acts Chapter 15 gives any authority to a church. If you knew the Greek, Hebrews and THE WAY or YAHSHUA'S disciples are assemble together in the Synagogue.

And he was reasoning in the congregation every Sabbath, and won over both Yehuḏim and Greeks. Act 18:4  

Finally, where in 2nd Timothy Chapter 2 do you find or read anything about "Apostolic Succession?"  That is a myth started by the Catholic Church. Paul, was writing to Timothy as to us all to be good soldier's for THE MESSIAH and to

Study to show thyself approved unto ELOHIYM, a  teacher that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:1

Men, always feel that they have to be superior to females so they used workermen. When actually the word is labourer or teacher.

The Bible never ever gave any authority to any, church, assembly or people on this earth. The authority comes from THE FATHER ABOVE in THE NAME OF YAHSHUA and then and only then will THE HOLY SPIRIT be in the midst! The problem with earthly beings they think they have authority and they do not! YAHSHUA came and died for us and HE SAID that HE had the keys over death and the grave. We here cannot do nothing of ourselves.

The Catholic Church feels that the papacy is both the father and the son and they are neither! Just like they made a sin stating that sinful man was the rock. Peter, was a SPIRIT felt man, just like Elijah but he still had sinful ways that he had to overcome. Paul had to speak to him.There is no proof that Peter is buried at the Vatican city. What the pagan Romans said; "Oh we are going to keep his body until we become papal Rome." Really! Peter was buried somewhere in tomb that no ones knows today. People are being duped and become delusional to believe a lie! When you do not study that is how people do not learn for themselves, and they will believe anything!

Blessings!

[Gustave]

3 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

If you would take the time and note for reference to read the whole thought you would fair well, Gustave:

And if your brother sins against you, go and convict him, between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word might be established. And if he refuses to hear them, say it to the assembly. And if he refuses even to hear the assembly, let him be to you like the nations and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be having been bound in Heaven, and whatever you loosen on earth shall be having been loosened in Heaven. Again, I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning any matter that they ask, it shall be done for them by MY FATHER in the Heavens. For where two or three are gathered together in MY NAME, there I am in their midst.” Mat 18:15-20

Stinsonmarri, would you accept orders from my Church pertaining to somethin you should or shouldn't do or the position you should take on a particular matter? No, you wouldn't - just like Ted could care less about what Bill or Bob's Church said about a personal squabble involving the three of them. 

First, I truly do not understand your logic in this statement. Secondly, I do not take orders from the church. That is not what is meant in the above Scriptures. The authority comes from THE FATHER through the Torah or Bible. The theme word is sin. What is sin, breaking the Commandments of YAHWEH!  What is bound on the earth, must first be bound in Heaven. If someone's continue to sin against you, then get two witness and they continue bring them before the assembly. If they will stand firm in YAHSHUA'S  NAME, then you treat him like not an enemy but like you would treat your neighbor. Nothing indicates any shame, casting out but let him be. We will not include him in prayer or anything related to the subject matter related to YAHSHUA. He do not want to take part anyways, so, dealt kindly with him on things that are not spiritual.

Nothing in Acts Chapter 15 gives any authority to a church. If you knew the Greek, Hebrews and THE WAY or YAHSHUA'S disciples are assemble together in the Synagogue.

And he was reasoning in the congregation every Sabbath, and won over both Yehuḏim and Greeks. Act 18:4  

Finally, where in 2nd Timothy Chapter 2 do you find or read anything about "Apostolic Succession?"  That is a myth started by the Catholic Church. Paul, was writing to Timothy as to us all to be good soldier's for THE MESSIAH and to

Study to show thyself approved unto ELOHIYM, a  teacher that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:1

Men, always feel that they have to be superior to females so they used workermen. When actually the word is labourer or teacher.

The Bible never ever gave any authority to any, church, assembly or people on this earth. The authority comes from THE FATHER ABOVE in THE NAME OF YAHSHUA and then and only then will THE HOLY SPIRIT be in the midst! The problem with earthly beings they think they have authority and they do not! YAHSHUA came and died for us and HE SAID that HE had the keys over death and the grave. We here cannot do nothing of ourselves.

The Catholic Church feels that the papacy is both the father and the son and they are neither! Just like they made a sin stating that sinful man was the rock. Peter, was a SPIRIT felt man, just like Elijah but he still had sinful ways that he had to overcome. Paul had to speak to him.There is no proof that Peter is buried at the Vatican city. What the pagan Romans said; "Oh we are going to keep his body until we become papal Rome." Really! Peter was buried somewhere in tomb that no ones knows today. People are being duped and become delusional to believe a lie! When you do not study that is how people do not learn for themselves, and they will believe anything!

Blessings!

 

 

You would fare far better if you read and contemplated a longer prior to providing commentary. 

You don't understand my logic in this statement? Its simply you can't have different Churches throwing out different answers when the truth is ONE. The Biblical command to "take it to the Church" presupposes ONE Church, not a myriad of Churches. 

Of course you don't take orders from the Church, I know this from your posting. A) You're Protestant & b) you don't even comply with the teachings of the SDA Church. 

You need to read Acts 15 again Stinson - certain individuals within the Church (who had NO AUTHORITY to say what they had been saying) subverted the souls of many in the Church with their unauthorized and false teaching. It reached such a point that a Church Council was held and the law was laid down. Back at that time you either accepted what Church Leadership (God) said -or you went off  and started your own full gospel tabernacle of the Lord Church - eventually enough people down the line will get the idea they should be doing what you see in this video: 

Last Film Footage of Pastor Jamie Coots - YouTube

 

That's how it works. 

Catholicism has nowhere taught that Popes are sinless or otherwise immune from hell - you need to get your facts better vetted. 

 

[stinsonmarri]

14 hours ago, Gustave said:

 

 

You would fare far better if you read and contemplated a longer prior to providing commentary. 

You don't understand my logic in this statement? Its simply you can't have different Churches throwing out different answers when the truth is ONE. The Biblical command to "take it to the Church" presupposes ONE Church, not a myriad of Churches. 

Of course you don't take orders from the Church, I know this from your posting. A) You're Protestant & b) you don't even comply with the teachings of the SDA Church. 

You need to read Acts 15 again Stinson - certain individuals within the Church (who had NO AUTHORITY to say what they had been saying) subverted the souls of many in the Church with their unauthorized and false teaching. It reached such a point that a Church Council was held and the law was laid down. Back at that time you either accepted what Church Leadership (God) said -or you went off  and started your own full gospel tabernacle of the Lord Church - eventually enough people down the line will get the idea they should be doing what you see in this video: 

Last Film Footage of Pastor Jamie Coots - YouTube

 

That's how it works. 

Catholicism has nowhere taught that Popes are sinless or otherwise immune from hell - you need to get your facts better vetted. 

 

I do not need to read it again but it does not say anything about "Apostolic Succession." It is not in the Bible period. I never mention about pope being sinners period. I spoke of Peter or any man being over the assembly of YAHWEH. Please, read what I said. The only ONE in AUTHORITY IS YAHSHUA! Ex 23:20-23; Heb 1:2; Rev1:8. Your words have no merit and no Biblical sound doctrine of truth.

Peace!

[Gustave]

10 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

I do not need to read it again but it does not say anything about "Apostolic Succession." It is not in the Bible period. I never mention about pope being sinners period. I spoke of Peter or any man being over the assembly of YAHWEH. Please, read what I said. The only ONE in AUTHORITY IS YAHSHUA! Ex 23:20-23; Heb 1:2; Rev1:8. Your words have no merit and no Biblical sound doctrine of truth.

Peace!

2 Timothy 2,1:  You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 

Paul = 1

Timothy = 2

Faithful men = 3

those faithful men teaching others = 4

That's a lot of Apostolic Succession in one verse Stinson, that's not the only verse that demonstrates it. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Apostolic Succession is the idea that the ordained leadership in the Church must trace  that confirmation of leaderslhip back to an Apostle.   IOW, Peter ordained X, X later ordained Y, who later ordained Z and on down to the ordained leadership in a local congregation today.  In short, the local priest in a Roman Catholic Church believed that his ordination can be traced back to one of the 12 Apostles.

Apostolic Succession is not the idea that Paul trained Timothy who trained others.  People can be trained in ministry without being ordained to the priesthood.  The Roman Catholic Church trains and uses females in ministry, but does not ordain a female to the priesthood.

The Roman catholic Church does not restrict Apostolic Succession to clergy who are a part of the Roman Catholic Church.   It recognizes that Clergy in the Protestant Episcopal Church, as well as some other denominations, have clergy who are part of a line of valid Apostolic Succession.

So, as a matter of fact, If the Seventh-day Adventist Church were to have any converts, who had been previously ordained in a valid line of Apostolic Succession, and those converts then participated in the ordination of SDA clergy, I believe that 'Gustave would say that there might be a SDA clergyperson who was validly ordained in a valid line of Apostolic Succession.

Certainly Gustave would state that there would be  problems connected with that.  I can well imagine what they might be.   He might say that such would only be valid if a Bishop was involved, I do not know for certain.

So the question now might be:

*  Have we ever had a clergyperson ordained in what was considered to be a valid line of Apostolic Succession convert to Adventism?  The answer to that would be, yes, and even very early in the history of our developing church.  We have had priests convert.

*  Have we ever had a Bishop convert?  I do not know.  I  would never claim such.

*  Have any such converts participated in the ordination of SDA clergy?  I do not know.  Perhaps yes.  Perhaps no.

 

NOTE:  I do know of a Roman Catholic member who converted, became SDA clergy and has participated in the ordination of other SDA Clergy.

Gustave, please correct any factual error, if I have made such.  also,  I had fun with this.  I trust you do not mind.  Speculation of the highly improbable can be fun at times.

 

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Apostolic Succession is the idea that the ordained leadership in the Church must trace  that confirmation of leaderslhip back to an Apostle.   IOW, Peter ordained X, X later ordained Y, who later ordained Z and on down to the ordained leadership in a local congregation today.  In short, the local priest in a Roman Catholic Church believed that his ordination can be traced back to one of the 12 Apostles.

Apostolic Succession is not the idea that Paul trained Timothy who trained others.  People can be trained in ministry without being ordained to the priesthood.  The Roman Catholic Church trains and uses females in ministry, but does not ordain a female to the priesthood.

The Roman catholic Church does not restrict Apostolic Succession to clergy who are a part of the Roman Catholic Church.   It recognizes that Clergy in the Protestant Episcopal Church, as well as some other denominations, have clergy who are part of a line of valid Apostolic Succession.

So, as a matter of fact, If the Seventh-day Adventist Church were to have any converts, who had been previously ordained in a valid line of Apostolic Succession, and those converts then participated in the ordination of SDA clergy, I believe that 'Gustave would say that there might be a SDA clergyperson who was validly ordained in a valid line of Apostolic Succession.

Certainly Gustave would state that there would be  problems connected with that.  I can well imagine what they might be.   He might say that such would only be valid if a Bishop was involved, I do not know for certain.

So the question now might be:

*  Have we ever had a clergyperson ordained in what was considered to be a valid line of Apostolic Succession convert to Adventism?  The answer to that would be, yes, and even very early in the history of our developing church.  We have had priests convert.

*  Have we ever had a Bishop convert?  I do not know.  I  would never claim such.

*  Have any such converts participated in the ordination of SDA clergy?  I do not know.  Perhaps yes.  Perhaps no.

 

NOTE:  I do know of a Roman Catholic member who converted, became SDA clergy and has participated in the ordination of other SDA Clergy.

Gustave, please correct any factual error, if I have made such.  also,  I had fun with this.  I trust you do not mind.  Speculation of the highly improbable can be fun at times.

 

Of course I don't mind, I'm just a regular old Joe in all this - just an amateur with an interest. 

 

My understanding is once a Priest always a Priest unless defrocked or released by request granted. I believe it's like Baptism in that it's done once and isn't generally removed / released. Priests don't ordain Priests, Bishops do that. Are there any examples of Catholic Priests who converted to SDA and continued administering the Sacraments? I seem to remember SDA's celebrating Communion only on 13th Sabbats and is this even viewed as a Sacrament? I'll grant I don't know but believed generally that Priests only operated within Liturgical Churches - what would they do a simple Elder couldn't do? 

 

Timothy was indeed a Bishop & that Scripture absolutely deals directly with Succession. 

 

[Gustave]

4 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I do not need to read it again but it does not say anything about "Apostolic Succession." It is not in the Bible period. I never mention about pope being sinners period. I spoke of Peter or any man being over the assembly of YAHWEH. Please, read what I said. The only ONE in AUTHORITY IS YAHSHUA! Ex 23:20-23; Heb 1:2; Rev1:8. Your words have no merit and no Biblical sound doctrine of truth.

Peace!

Slow down a little bit. 

  1 John 4, 6: We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Slow down enough to recognize that there is a difference between US in the above Scripture. It may be shocking and disturbing for you to learn this but "US" in the above Scripture refers to those who were authorized to teach Doctrines - US refers to the Apostolic Church Leaders. A Christian at that time was to know beyond any doubt the Spirit of error was anything that deviated from Apostolic Teaching. 

Do you now agree that the Apostles had authority to teach Christian Doctrine and an individual who ignored the Apostles & their teaching was NOT OF GOD? Have you taken the 1st step Stinson? 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave, I will respond to your question related to the Lord's Supper, as we would call it.

*  Yes, we call the Lord's Supper a Sacrament, as we do baptism.

*  The idea of celebrating it four (4) times a year arose out of our historical background, in which Methodist Preachers often were only able to visit a congregation four times a year.

*  We invite all Christians who may be at our service to participate with us.  We do not limit to SDAs.

*  We typically include a foot washing service in connection with the Lord's Supper.  However, that is not a requirement to participate.  As a Federal chaplain, I have conducted the Lord's Supper at many services, and I have not included a foot washing in those services.  During this COVID time, the Lord's supper is being celebrated in SDA congregation without a foot washing service.  Like I say it is not required.  As an interesting  point to people reading this who do not know Roman Catholic belief, the Pope takes part in a foot washing service each year.

*  SDA congregations are free to make changes in the manner in which they celebrate the Lord's 
Supper.  While there is a common manner, SDA congregations do make changes.

 

 

[Gustave]

Foot washing is well known in Eastern Orthodox and Catholic circles. 

Is it necessary for "Adventist Clergy" to be the ones who administer the Sacraments of the Church? If the Lord's Supper practice harkens back to a time when Methodist Preachers could only occasionally visit congregations that would indicate that the Lord's Supper wouldn't be valid unless it was prepared and distributed by SDA Clergy. In other words SDA's would agree that a general member of the Church couldn't bring in communion bread and wine and serve it - it wouldn't be viewed as valid? Is that right? 

I find it odd that what Methodists did had much bearing on SDA practice given that Ellen White and her Family were excommunicated from the Methodist Church and additionally Ellen's husband and the other SDA Leaders often publicly repudiated the Methodist Creed and Methodist statement of Faith pertaining to the Trinity & views of the Soul. 

I'm trying to circle in on the time frame SDA's started holding 13th Sabbat Communion and if that time coincides with the time the early Adventists were castigating the Methodists and other Christian Denominations for paganism by their belief in the Trinity. 

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K., I shall respond to the questions that Gustave has suggested.

*   Lord's Supper four (4) times a year:   There was a time when Methodist pastors had multiple small family type congregations.  and visited say four times a year each congregation.  In those situations, the Lords Supper was celebrated with the visit of the Methodist pastor.

   *  In the early days of the SDA Church, there were few ordained clergy, and  those ordained clergy would attempt to visit a local, small, family congregation and celebrate the Lord's supper four (4) times a year.  NOTE:  I actually have pastored congregations that were little more than a family congregation.

* I once lived in a country where most of the ordained SDA pastors had 12 or 13 congregations!  

*  The primary responsibility for congregational ministry rests upon the ordained pastor.

*  However, in special circumstances where it is not likely that the ordained pastor could provide everything needed, the Conference President (Bishop) can authorize the Local Elder (Not the ordained pastor) to provide services such as the Lords Supper.  This authorization will be limited and specific.  

*  In the U.S. this is most often done for a person who is still in training to be a pastor, has been given a congregation (or more) Is and serving under an ordained pastor.  This is typical and was part of my training.

*  The SDA Church, like the Roman Catholic Church, requires several years of congregational ministry, under the supervision of an ordained minster, before that person is fully ordained  as SDA Clergy.

 

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

3 hours ago, Gustave said:

Foot washing is well known in Eastern Orthodox and Catholic circles. 

Is it necessary for "Adventist Clergy" to be the ones who administer the Sacraments of the Church? If the Lord's Supper practice harkens back to a time when Methodist Preachers could only occasionally visit congregations that would indicate that the Lord's Supper wouldn't be valid unless it was prepared and distributed by SDA Clergy. In other words SDA's would agree that a general member of the Church couldn't bring in communion bread and wine and serve it - it wouldn't be viewed as valid? Is that right? 

I find it odd that what Methodists did had much bearing on SDA practice given that Ellen White and her Family were excommunicated from the Methodist Church and additionally Ellen's husband and the other SDA Leaders often publicly repudiated the Methodist Creed and Methodist statement of Faith pertaining to the Trinity & views of the Soul. 

I'm trying to circle in on the time frame SDA's started holding 13th Sabbat Communion and if that time coincides with the time the early Adventists were castigating the Methodists and other Christian Denominations for paganism by their belief in the Trinity. 

See here is the problem talking about sacrament and apostolic succession that are not Biblical. This is Catholicism which is false. Sorry to say I do not agree with Pastor Green, because the Bible clearly states we should wash each other feets.

 HE riseth from supper, and laid aside HIS Garments; and took a towel, and girded HIMSELF. After that HE poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith HE was girded.  Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto HIM, MASTER, dost thou wash my feet?  YAHSHUA answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto HIM, THOU shalt never wash my feet. YAHSHUA answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with ME. Simon Peter saith unto HIM, Master, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. YAHSHUA saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is all clean: and ye are clean, but not all. John 13:4-10T

That is why, I take a stand on truth and faith. I do not wash my feet every 13 Sabbath but once a year according to the Bible.

And YAHWEH spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning The Appointed Times of YAHWEH, which ye shall proclaim to be Holy Convocations, even these are MY Appointed Times. Lev 23:1, 2 WOY and TS2009

I have never read any where in the Bible that the Holy Convocations were IsraEL, Hebrews, Jews or any male, female, tribe, church or nations on this earth. If so, show me!

Not only do I repudiated, YAHWEH does even more. The Bible does not speak about any trinity nor does it speaks any views on the soul accept one thing. 

 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. Psa 89:48

I will say this loud and clear no church, assembly, synagogue, temple, building ect. can save anyone, period. Only YAHSHUA saves. When we keep all of THE FATHER'S Commandments just like Abraham learned to do before he died. 

Because that Abraham obeyed MY VOICE, and kept MY Charge, MY Commandments, MY Statutes, and MY Laws.Gen 26:5

Those who will be save in The Kingdom of Heaven will obey and do THE WILL of THE FATHER and not any male or female who teaches again HIS WORD!

Peace!

[Gustave]

See here is the problem talking about sacrament and apostolic succession that are not Biblical. This is Catholicism which is false. Sorry to say I do not agree with Pastor Green, because the Bible clearly states we should wash each other feets.

& that's the simplicity of your position Stinton, you can protest against the Apostolic Church & every Protestant Church right down to your own AND, you can even protest against it. 

 

Quote

 

 HE riseth from supper, and laid aside HIS Garments; and took a towel, and girded HIMSELF. After that HE poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith HE was girded.  Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto HIM, MASTER, dost thou wash my feet?  YAHSHUA answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto HIM, THOU shalt never wash my feet. YAHSHUA answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with ME. Simon Peter saith unto HIM, Master, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. YAHSHUA saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is all clean: and ye are clean, but not all. John 13:4-10T

That is why, I take a stand on truth and faith. I do not wash my feet every 13 Sabbath but once a year according to the Bible.

 

If that's how you view it, according to the Bible you should be observing Hanukkah each year and giving thanks to God that Daniel 8, 14 was fulfilled prior to the birth of Jesus. Something tells me you don't do this and adopt a more cafeteria / shake-N-bake approach to what gets your saliva glands pumping. 

 

 

 

And YAHWEH spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning The Appointed Times of YAHWEH, which ye shall proclaim to be Holy Convocations, even these are MY Appointed Times. Lev 23:1, 2 WOY and TS2009

I have never read any where in the Bible that the Holy Convocations were IsraEL, Hebrews, Jews or any male, female, tribe, church or nations on this earth. If so, show me!

 

Here Stinson

Deuteronomy 7, 1 -: When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Leviticus 26,46: These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Leviticus 23,5 / 23, 6 / 23, / 23, 20

& a host of other Scriptures that suggest you don't really understand Scripture. 

 

 

 

Not only do I repudiated, YAHWEH does even more. The Bible does not speak about any trinity nor does it speaks any views on the soul accept one thing. 

 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. Psa 89:48

I will say this loud and clear no church, assembly, synagogue, temple, building ect. can save anyone, period. Only YAHSHUA saves. When we keep all of THE FATHER'S Commandments just like Abraham learned to do before he died. 

Because that Abraham obeyed MY VOICE, and kept MY Charge, MY Commandments, MY Statutes, and MY Laws.Gen 26:5

Those who will be save in The Kingdom of Heaven will obey and do THE WILL of THE FATHER and not any male or female who teaches again HIS WORD!

 

The Bible doesn't speak about the Investigative Judgement either or for that matter what Books should be inspired Scripture but you don't need a guide or authority when you can shake-N-bake a God to your own liking and interpret whatever it is you want the texts to say. 

Peace! 

 

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 2/15/2021 at 10:18 AM, Gustave said:

See here is the problem talking about sacrament and apostolic succession that are not Biblical. This is Catholicism which is false. Sorry to say I do not agree with Pastor Green, because the Bible clearly states we should wash each other feets.

 

& that's the simplicity of your position Stinton, you can protest against the Apostolic Church & every Protestant Church right down to your own AND, you can even protest against it. 

I do not need to protest something that does not exist! Conspiracy theorist come from Satan that people succumb to his satanic whims. See the problem with you, you cannot produce one word of sacrament or apostolic succession anywhere in the KJV or any new version. IT IS NOT THERE AND YOU ARE DELUSIONAL, BELIEVING A LIE!  I have never seen so many delusional people who come up with all kinds of ridiculous theories. These are the time for seducing spirits and boy is it bad!

Happy Sabbath!

[Gregory Matthews]

Stinsonmarri:   Ae you telling us that Biblically there are no sacraments?

The SDA Church teaches that there are two Biblical sacraments.  One of them is baptism.  Are you telling us that the Bible does not teach baptism?

  

[Gregory Matthews]

Some people believe that there are seven (7) sacraments.  These are:

1)  Baptism

2)  Confirmation

3)  Penance

4)  Eucharist (Protestants: The Lords Supper)

5)  Anointing of the Sick:

6)  Marriage

7)  Holy Orders (Protestants:  Ordination)

SDAs teach that there are two sacraments.  I have bolded those two.  However, in actual practice, SDAs act like there are three (3) additional sacraments which I have underlined.  

As an example:  At my ordination one of the persons who had a major role introduced an element that was very Catholic in thought.  To have been told such would have angered him.  But, he simply did not know what he was doing.

On a personal basis, I provide numbers 1, 4, 5, 6, & 7 to people  because I believe that they are Biblical.   However, I do not often provide # 5, as I believe that it is often misused and I do not like the manner in which I believe it is often approached.

It should also be noted that SDAs typically provide # 4 & 6 to Christians who are not SDA members.  I have performed the marriage of more people who were not SDA than I have of SDA people.

 

  

 

[Gregory Matthews]

There are some differences between the Catholic understanding of the Sacraments and the SDA understanding.  But, there is often less difference that some may think.

As an example, SDAs have three levels of ordination:  Deacons, Local Elders and clergy.  Catholics have more levels of the Holy Orders.

NOTE:  Yes, I am aware of the current discussions within the SDA church in regard to Commissioning women and the role of females as Deacons.  I am simply ignoring those issues.

[Gustave]

16 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I do not need to protest something that does not exist! Conspiracy theorist come from Satan that people succumb to his satanic whims. See the problem with you, you cannot produce one word of sacrament or apostolic succession anywhere in the KJV or any new version. IT IS NOT THERE AND YOU ARE DELUSIONAL, BELIEVING A LIE!  I have never seen so many delusional people who come up with all kinds of ridiculous theories. These are the time for seducing spirits and boy is it bad!

Happy Sabbath!

Stinson, how do you deal with Numbers 16 and the rebellion of Korah? Do you believe that Moses used witchcraft to get rid of Korah and his supporters OR do you believe Korah was on the wrong side of that issue and that it was actually God that was displeased with his failure to recognize the religious authority he should have?  

Do you believe Jesus was justified in ordering both the crowds and his Disciples to "do whatsoever the Scribes and Pharisees commanded" in Matthew 23,2 because they had that same religious authority given by God or do you believe if you were present when Jesus said that you would have corrected Christ by informing him that you would ONLY do what the Scribes and Pharisees said  pertaining to Judaism's faith  IF what they said aligned with your private interpretation of Scripture? 

How you answer the above two questions would inform your decision on how you would answer the following: 

Matthew 28,16: Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Why, before Jesus' death did He tell the crowds and His Disciples to follow the religious instruction of the Scribes and Pharisees? Why would Jesus care about "the seat of Moses"? Why would Jesus say the something after His resurrection that contradicted something He said prior to His death and resurrection? 

I'd like to how you demonstrate your logic chain in answering these questions. I realize that Nation of Islam and the Black Israelite movements are dependent on some conspiracy theories but lets set those aside for right now and focus on answering the questions I've posed without relying on conspiracy theories. 

[Gustave]

5 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There are some differences between the Catholic understanding of the Sacraments and the SDA understanding.  But, there is often less difference that some may think.

As an example, SDAs have three levels of ordination:  Deacons, Local Elders and clergy.  Catholics have more levels of the Holy Orders.

NOTE:  Yes, I am aware of the current discussions within the SDA church in regard to Commissioning women and the role of females as Deacons.  I am simply ignoring those issues.

I'm going to guess that Stinson believes the only Sacrament (or whatever she calls it) is the Sabbath. 

[Gregory Matthews]

You may note that I did not call the Sabbath a sacrament.

In a previous comment, I could have stated tha SDA clergy do anoint the sick who are not SDA members.