Death is. . .

[Gregory Matthews]

The following is an interesting view, with which you will likely have some disagreement.   

 

If Death Is Like Sleep, Do the Dead Dream? | Adventist Today (atoday.org)

 

[phkrause]

Oy vey!!

Solomon says "the dead know nothing!!"

[Gustave]

Does anyone know when the SDA's adopted the theological understanding on death they currently advocate? Ellen White was initially a Methodist and we all know what they believe reference this matter. My question is simply the timing that SDA's adopted the understanding that dead don't know anything (i.e. 1850, 1848, etc.)?  

[Gregory Matthews]

My comments are abstracted from the article "Death" in Volume 10, Seventh-Day Adventist Encyclopedia, Revised Edition, Commentary Reference Series, pages 381 -384, 1976.

*  In 1835,a Henry Grew published a tract titled: The Intermediate State.  This tract was republished in 1844. 

*  In 1837, the Methodist minister, George Storrs, read that above tract and was skeptical of its teachings.

*  About 1840 Gorge Storrs, changed his mind, agreed in general with the teachings of Henry Grew and Storrs withdrew from the Methodist church.

 *  In 1841 George Storrs published a new view in: An Enquiry, Are the Souls of the Wicked Immortal?

*  In 1842 George published his views in a book with a similar title as above.

*  Charles Fitch, converted Storrs to the Millerite teaching on the coming 2nd Advent.

*   Many of the Millerites accepted Storrs teaching that humans were unconscious in death.

*  About 1842 Storrs published another edition of his book with 5,000 copies.

*   In 1843 Storrs began the periodical the Bible Examiner, which focused on his views on death.

*  In 1844, Charles Fitch accepted Storrs views on death.

*  NOTE:  Many Millerite leaders opposed Storres's teachings.

*  Several of he early SDA leaders accepted the view of Storres as to the condition in death.

*  At a conference in Albany, New York, on April 29, 1845, those early SDAs accepted, at least a partial version of Storrs teaching on death.   

*  By 1847, James White, Joseph Bates and Ellen White had come into at least partial agreement with Storres.

*  The first explicit statement on this was made by Roswell F. Cottrell, in a November 22, 1853 article in the Review.

*  James white followed with a series of 1854 articles on this subject, in the Review.

*  1854 an SDA clergyperson ( E.P. Hall) wrote a book on this subject, which was printed in a series of articles in the Review beginning with the August 29, 1854 issue.

*  J. N. Loughborough, then wrote a series of articles starting with the September 4, 1855 issue.

*  By the mid-1850s this had become an established SDA Doctrine.

*  Over the next 30 years a number of books were written on this subject.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gustave]

On 3/27/2021 at 5:53 PM, phkrause said:

Oy vey!!

Solomon says "the dead know nothing!!"

He did, he also said that the person who died would never (as in ever) have a share in anything. The end. 

 

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten". Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Solomon also said it better to have never been born than have been born and have great wisdom. 

 

So, back to my question it would seem that between the time Ellen started to "date" James White (1845) and prior to their marriage in August 1846 it could be said to be a reasonable understanding that Circa 1845/46 that Ellen didn't have the theological convictions about death that she did, in say, 1855. Is this a fair statement?  

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave: As to your reference to Solomon, a reasonable person could consider that statement to refer to our human life.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave: As to EGW, she changed her views on a number of doctrines.  So, yes, her views on death probably changed.

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gustave: As to EGW, she changed her views on a number of doctrines.  So, yes, her views on death probably changed.

As to your reference to Solomon, a reasonable person could consider that statement to refer to our human life

 

While I've never thought deeply about it and readily admit I could be wrong - I sort of assumed that at the resurrection "of the body" we would be returned to the state of perfect humanity and it's really us (not a copy). Solomon makes some assertions that I would guess any Christian would agree with in a theological perspective. 

The reason I asked about the timing of Ellen White's views on this subject was because I happened upon some of her early work where she flat out states she saw many individuals in heaven that proceeded her and the group she left planet earth with. Specifically King David, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Prophet Daniel, & and many other Old Testament saints.  

Knowing what Methodists believe on this subject I found it reasonable to believe that Ellen's views (at the time she wrote what I recently read- pre 1847) reflected her views as a Methodist and not as what is understood today as SDA belief. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave could you provide a reference to whst you say EGW ssid

 

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

The reason I asked about the timing of Ellen White's views on this subject was because I happened upon some of her early work where she flat out states she saw many individuals in heaven that proceeded her and the group she left planet earth with. Specifically King David, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Prophet Daniel, & and many other Old Testament saints.

You could ponder the resurrection that occurred when Jesus was resurrected as described in the New Testament. EGW does describe (see Desire of Ages) these resurrected individuals as having been taken to heaven with Jesus and represented a wave sheath offering. Many of these resurrected also probably form the body of the 24 elders as described in Revelation. Considering that prior to the First Advent, only three individuals were known to have been in heaven. So, to get to 24 you need to find 21 more individuals to be in heaven. 

When she described seeing the Old Testament saints, I don't know that she said they were currently in heaven or if the vision was of seeing them in the future in heaven. I am confident there is a body of individuals in heaven, but I would not venture to state exactly who they are beyond Enoch, Moses, and Elijah.

As far as EGW "changing" her views, she did come out of the Methodist faith and much was developed as part of the SDA beliefs after 1844. I do not know of any beliefs that were developed and then changed later on. Do keep in mind that most of the SDA beliefs did not come from EGW, but by serious Bible study by groups of early church pioneers. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave stated in the quote below:

* Certainly it is possible.

* Perhaps a return to that of Adam & Eve.

*  Perhaps something that we cannot imagine today>

While I've never thought deeply about it and readily admit I could be wrong - I sort of assumed that at the resurrection "of the body" we would be returned to the state of perfect humanity and it's really us (not a copy).

[Gustave]

7 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

You could ponder the resurrection that occurred when Jesus was resurrected as described in the New Testament. EGW does describe (see Desire of Ages) these resurrected individuals as having been taken to heaven with Jesus and represented a wave sheath offering. Many of these resurrected also probably form the body of the 24 elders as described in Revelation. Considering that prior to the First Advent, only three individuals were known to have been in heaven. So, to get to 24 you need to find 21 more individuals to be in heaven. 

When she described seeing the Old Testament saints, I don't know that she said they were currently in heaven or if the vision was of seeing them in the future in heaven. I am confident there is a body of individuals in heaven, but I would not venture to state exactly who they are beyond Enoch, Moses, and Elijah.

As far as EGW "changing" her views, she did come out of the Methodist faith and much was developed as part of the SDA beliefs after 1844. I do not know of any beliefs that were developed and then changed later on. Do keep in mind that most of the SDA beliefs did not come from EGW, but by serious Bible study by groups of early church pioneers. 

Between October 22, 1844 & prior to Ellen's August 30, 1846 marriage to James White Ellen produced "The Word To The Little Flock". Ellen states that while at the Family Altar the Holy Ghost fell upon her and off she went on a sort of trek. The "Family Altar" Ellen references would have been her immediate families altar - so, at this early point she would have been, for the most part, still theologically a Methodist. 

Ellen articulates that she was among the living 144,000 Millerite saints who rise (along with the dead), and along with Jesus, wing their way upwards. This group "stays together" according to Ellen [much like one on a guided tour of sea world]. This group eventually get's exposed to folks already there. 

"We all went under the tree, and sat down to look at the glory of the place, when brothers Fitch and Stockman, who had preached the gospel of the kingdom, and whom God had laid in the grave to save them, came up to us and asked us what we had passed through while they were sleeping. We tried to call up our greatest trials, but they looked so small compared with the far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory that surrounded us, that we could not speak them out, and we all cried out Hallelujah, heaven is cheap enough, and we touched our glorious harps and made heaven's arches ring. And as we were gazing at the glories of the place our eyes were attracted upwards to something that had the appearance of silver. I asked Jesus to let me see what was within there. In a moment we were winging our way upward, and entering in; here we saw good old father Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel, and many like them."

Ellen stated that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the Prophet Daniel were there. 

 

 

[phkrause]

8 hours ago, Gustave said:

While I've never thought deeply about it and readily admit I could be wrong - I sort of assumed that at the resurrection "of the body" we would be returned to the state of perfect humanity and it's really us (not a copy).

Here's what EGW has to say about what happens at Jesus' coming:

All come forth from their graves the same in stature as when they entered the tomb. Adam, who stands among the risen throng, is of lofty height and majestic form, in stature but little below the Son of God. He presents a marked contrast to the people of later generations; in this one respect is shown the great degeneracy of the race. But all arise with the freshness and vigor of eternal youth. In the beginning, man was created in the likeness of God, not only in character, but in form and feature. Sin defaced and almost obliterated the divine image; but Christ came to restore that which had been lost. He will change our vile bodies and fashion them like unto His glorious body. The mortal, corruptible form, devoid of comeliness, once polluted with sin, becomes perfect, beautiful, and immortal. All blemishes and deformities are left in the grave. Restored to the tree of life in the long-lost Eden, the redeemed will “grow up” (Malachi 4:2) to the full stature of the race in its primeval glory. The last lingering traces of the curse of sin will be removed, and Christ’s faithful ones will appear in “the beauty of the Lord our God,” in mind and soul and body reflecting the perfect image of their Lord. Oh, wonderful redemption! long talked of, long hoped for, contemplated with eager anticipation, but never fully understood. {GC 644.3}

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

Here's what EGW has to say about what happens at Jesus' coming:

All come forth from their graves the same in stature as when they entered the tomb. Adam, who stands among the risen throng, is of lofty height and majestic form, in stature but little below the Son of God. He presents a marked contrast to the people of later generations; in this one respect is shown the great degeneracy of the race. But all arise with the freshness and vigor of eternal youth. In the beginning, man was created in the likeness of God, not only in character, but in form and feature. Sin defaced and almost obliterated the divine image; but Christ came to restore that which had been lost. He will change our vile bodies and fashion them like unto His glorious body. The mortal, corruptible form, devoid of comeliness, once polluted with sin, becomes perfect, beautiful, and immortal. All blemishes and deformities are left in the grave. Restored to the tree of life in the long-lost Eden, the redeemed will “grow up” (Malachi 4:2) to the full stature of the race in its primeval glory. The last lingering traces of the curse of sin will be removed, and Christ’s faithful ones will appear in “the beauty of the Lord our God,” in mind and soul and body reflecting the perfect image of their Lord. Oh, wonderful redemption! long talked of, long hoped for, contemplated with eager anticipation, but never fully understood. {GC 644.3}

Thanks for that Phk! I was ignorant of this quote. I see she tripled down on the Father having a material body.