Religion Taking A Left Turn? about time too!

July 11, 2006

At a church in Washington, hundreds of committed Christians met recently and tried to map out a strategy to get their values into the political debate.

But these are not the conservative Christian values which have been so influential lately. This is the religious left.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/09/eveningnews/main1786860.shtml

Isn't about time Christians start speaking up for the same values that Jesus taught rather than the politically expedient issues that are calculated just to win votes?

July 11, 2006

I'm not sure the last sentence is a fair characterisation: I think most of the participants in the Religious Right are completely sincere in what they believe. But I definitely agree that society needs to hear a much broader range of Christian perspectives proclaimed loudly and clearly.

July 11, 2006

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"Jesus never said one word about homosexuality, never said one word about civil marriage or abortion," Edgar said.

Why was that?

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The Christian left is focusing on:

* Fighting poverty

* Protecting the environment

* Ending the war in Iraq

Those are noble goals.

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leaders of the religious left are promoting issues like raising the minimum wage.

Well, this will result in inflation and a slight boost in unemployment of low-paid workers. Minimum wage is overdue to be raised but needs to be done while the economy is booming so its side effects are not felt as much.

They should just focus on their noble goals and avoid insulting other Christians that place other goals on a higher priority.

July 11, 2006

At the risk of being misunderstood/misinterpreted on the point I'm about to make, my boyfriend and I have had many a discussion that the greatest (perceived) "weakness" of the Left has been the very tolerance alluded to in the final sentence of the post above.

It is this tolerance for which the Left has been traditionally known -- at least since the 1960s -- and at times vilified over when it serves the purposes of the so-called "Right" to do so, such as when this tolerance is extended toward any toward whom the "Right" are notoriously INtolerant. Yet on the other hand, the "Right" pretends to "rely" upon the Left to exhibit this tolerance, and appeals to them to do so whenever they (the "Right") feel threatened by some less-than-flattering accurate assessment of themselves levied by the Left.

The Left, in turn, wanting to be consistent (and consistently "noble") -- that is, non-hypocritical and true to their tolerant ideals -- consistently is bullied and cowed away from speaking with a sufficiently strong voice when it comes to accurately characterizing those policies, attitudes, behaviors, deeds, etc. of the "Right" which NEED to be addressed in strong terms, not mincing words, and roundly and appropriately criticized. Thus the reknowned tolerance of the Left becomes its own undoing, for the "Right" wields this as a weapon against them. If the Left speaks boldly against the garbage of the Right, they risk being tarbrushed as hypocritically and suddenly "intolerant." Yet by failing to do so, the voice of the Left in social and political critique is weakened.

Therefore, I say the so-called "Right" -- and pardon the bluntness of my next words -- needs to seriously shut up about this. They take the liberty to freely and scathingly criticize and castigate anything they perceive as failing or wrongness in the Left, and REVEL in their intolerance which they wear as a perverse badge of pride, so they need to SHUT UP with these gaslighting insinuations that the Left should not or cannot have the same liberty to freely criticize what it perceives as their failings and wrongs. And likewise, the Left needs to stop letting this nonsense intimidate them and start consistently manifesting a strong voice, instead of worrying that their avowed political opposition isn't going to include them in the group hug.

In other words, the Right needs to tolerate the Left speaking just as strongly, scathingly, passionately and denouncingly as they do, while the Left needs to recognize that every rule has its exception and sometimes it is necessary to be intolerant -- especially of those things that would threaten or destroy the general rule of tolerance itself.

What's sauce for the goose is marinade for the gander -- or something like that. If that makes any sense.

July 11, 2006

A good post, thank you for it Nico (good to see you round here again). While not totally on topic, it is this same kind of tolerance in a democracy that could see its undoing, by permitting the rise to power of a very nondemocratic regime. Not a comforting thought (especially if the religious right of whatever creed is involved).

July 11, 2006

Exactly so, Nan! It is at precisely this point where a generally positive value breaks down as it is used by a negative force toward destructive ends against the one so passionately and adamantly espousing it.

There's a powerful life lesson in here somewhere for those with eyes to see ... there is no trap so deadly as being caught in the trap of one's own convictions turned against oneself for ill by another who seeks one's destruction or undoing.

July 11, 2006

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Bravus said:

I'm not sure the last sentence is a fair characterisation: I think most of the participants in the Religious Right are completely sincere in what they believe.

Yeah you're right. What I realy wanted to address was those, in political circles, who use certain Christian values as a way of getting votes and support. Their own lives often reveal struggles in the very area that they seek to attack others on.

I believe the senator who sponsored the proposed gay marriage amendment has himself been married three times. There's a certain irony there.

July 11, 2006

As if Jesus taught homosexuality, Laz.

He did teach that each of us can overcome (and forsake) sin in His strength.

rejoice always,

olger

July 11, 2006

Tolerance for the sake of tolerance is not noble. I see little difference between the Left and the Right. The "little" I see is their agenda but each goes about it in the same way. Each seeks to force others to live the way they believe is right.

Liberals, for example, believe sex education should be taught in public school. They seek to deny the poor access to any alternative means of education that vouchers would permit. Secular liberals want evolution to be taught unchallenged in school. Many go as far as trying to eliminate any reference to Chrisitainity - even at Christmas. Many liberals also support laws that mandate recycling and set minimum gas milage requirments for cars.

Now some of these things may well be noble (like environmental laws) but they are nonetheless someone's morality and liberals seek to force others into compliance by using the civil government.

Conservatives do the same thing with their agenda. Conservative seek to make prostitution, gambling, abortion and gay marriage illegal. These things are also issues of morality and conservatives also seek to use the civil government to enforce them.

So the extreams at both ends are like two sides of a coin. I don't see one as being more noble than another. Some things we need to tolerate, like religious differences. Other things we should not tolerate, like the exploitation of others.

July 12, 2006

a few years ago I was in a christian bookstore and I found a book in an "attic sale" so I asked the kind christian sales lady about the author. She said that He is a liberal.

She said it like I wouldnt like it cause he was not as conservative as other authors. She didnt know me. She assumed cause I was in a christian bookstore that I must be a rightwinger cause most christians are rightwingers(sooo scary-God help us all). I didnt correct her. I didnt tell her I was a gay democratic tree hugging pot smoking Madonna limpsinking drag queen organic vegan abortionist hippie loving commie. So I brought the book.

The author was conservative yet balanced. That in that ladies eyes is a liberal?

o to be what the conservatives what me to be- Straight white republican in a SUV. Owning my own business and denying Global warming. And P R O W A R!!! Yahooo!!

July 12, 2006

BTW the words I used to describe myself arent all true.

Can anyone guess what words I used are true?

July 12, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

gay democratic tree hugging pot smoking Madonna limpsinking drag queen organic vegan abortionist hippie loving commie.

Let me see... guessing...

gay democratic tree hugging ... Madonna limpsinking ... organic vegan ... hippie loving ... .

PS

not sure whether "limpsinking" is "lip syncing" or not, and maybe you enjoy cross dressing? who knows.

July 12, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

So the extreams at both ends are like two sides of a coin. I don't see one as being more noble than another. Some things we need to tolerate, like religious differences. Other things we should not tolerate, like the exploitation of others.

I agree.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Liberals, for example, believe sex education should be taught in public school.

I am not convinced this is a liberal/conservative split.

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They seek to deny the poor access to any alternative means of education that vouchers would permit.

I am not convinced this is a liberal/conservative split. The Republican's don't seem to get the voucher program through, and they control the House, Senate, and Presidency

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Secular liberals want evolution to be taught unchallenged in school.

No, but they want the challenges to be based on science, not on religious beliefs. Intelligent design is NOT science.

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Many go as far as trying to eliminate any reference to Chrisitainity - even at Christmas.

I haven't seen the equivalent tolerance for other religions. If you are requiring schooling, then the required schooling should not be biased towards one religion or sect.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Many liberals also support laws that mandate recycling

A big issue in our society is who pays for toxic waste. We don't charge the producer enough to cover the true costs of disposal, instead we right laws about what you can do with your waste. True conservatives don't allow dumping on public land, or leaving big toxic waste piles for following generations - they insist on proper disposal also.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

and set minimum gas milage requirments for cars.

The minimum isn't on all cars, it is a fleet average, designed to force the car manufacturers to invest in improving mileage.

It is no different to any other regulation of industry to get a social consequence - which is actually the basis of a lot of US politics, liberal and conservative. For instance: patents, drugs, warning labels, safety standards, and liability laws.

/Bevin

July 12, 2006

My point wasn't to get into an issue by issue discussion. My point is that far-left liberals seek to use the civil government to enforce their morality in the same way that far-right conservatives do. While I admit to leaning conservative, I consider myself a moderate conservative and hold much respect and admiration for moderate liberals.

July 12, 2006

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So I brought the book.

The author was conservative yet balanced. That in that ladies eyes is a liberal?

That is why I like the political tests one can take that chart them. That is what I have done on many occations. When one takes a test like that, answers the questions as honestly as possible, the tests normally plot out their position in the political spectrum pretty well.

We had such a test here some time back for religion. It had numerous questions and multiple choice answers and at the end listed the denominations one was most compatable with. Can anyone find that thread and give it a bump?

Some radical conservatives actually consider Bill O'Reilly to be a liberal. While he may be on environmental issues, he is quite conservative on other issues like the War and moderate on still others. So a person's prespective has a lot to do with their position in the political spectrum.

July 12, 2006

I listen to Dr. Laura Schlessinger

Michael Savage

Hannity and Colms

and watch Judge Judy

I listen to Focus On The politics-oops I mean Focus On The Family by Dr. James Dobson every once in awhile.

I listen to Harold Camping on Family Radio as well.

I am a registered Republican also.

I couldnt stand Reagon or NIxon

I cant stand Dubya Bush.

I adore Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter and their wifes.

U guys do realize the Senior Bush was a wimp and His wife wears the pants in the family.

I voted for Kerry even though in my heart I didnt want him to inherent the Bush mess. I think we just maybe need another idiot yippie ki yi yay republican president to 'shock and awe' us some more to continue this nasty war.

Cause we cant just pull out prematurely without the cuddleing cause that would be STUPID to start a war and then just leave. We are already hated by many peoples in the nations. So I have always said(before the war) if we go in we have to do it right and completely(which I knew we wouldnt do right anyway)to effectively take care of the issues involved. So let another republican have at it. I ,of course will vote against him causeI cant stand the conservative slant in their hearts that is void of Christ and plenty on the rules.

I live in a republican area that beleives he can do no wrong.

July 13, 2006

Just a little curious

1.I adore Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter and their wifes.

Bill Clinton proved himself a liar. Doesn't matter who else has lied or who you believe lies now in government. It is Bill Clinton you adore. For what reason?

He proved beyond a doubt that when it was his hide that mattered or that of his wife and child he would humiliate them nationally without so much as a twinge. Most men, even if they no longer love their wives will protect their children if possible. A man that could so convincingly lie on national television is a practised liar. Doesn't even matter what you personally think of what he did morally. It is the fact that he could lie and publically humilate those he claims to love the most. I have little sympathy for Hilary as I believe she knew just what the truth was when she herself went on national television to blame this vast right wing conspiracy for daring to think, her husband, with a proven track record of being unfaithful had this little fling with Monica under the desk. How dare those evil people???? But non-the -less, if we are to believe she was that dense, what is their to adore about a man that lacks even the most basic of feelings for his wife and child? Of course then we are suppossed to believe he really, really feels the pain of the private citizen. But that is my opinion only on Hilary and I cannot back it up with any facts.

Did you adore him when he bombed the aspirin factory killing innocent people? Were you proud when he as our president lied on national television? I wasn't. Not anymore than I was when Nixon lied.

Nixon at least did not put his wife out there front and center to lie for him as well.

Doesn't matter what the lies are about, if you LIE,YOU WILL LIE ANYTIME IT SERVES YOUR PURPOSE OR YOU ARE BACKED INTO A CORNER.

Jimmy Carter of course had this excellent presidency. I had a lot of sympathy for him when he tried to rescue the hostages in Iran. I remeber at the time many didn't, even democrates. But had that been either of the Bush presidencies all of you would still be foaming at the mouth over it. It would have either been stupid, for show, or whatever.

But I well remember this outstanding president for our economy. Being in construction our business was the last to recover. 21% interest rate is almost enough to make you miss the good old days, Isn't it.? Jimmy and his good old sweater was going to solve the gas line situation.

2. U guys do realize the Senior Bush was a wimp and His wife wears the pants in the family.

I know a man of your sterling character would not spread rumor, repeat only your opinion as fact, or in anyway malaign anyone, political or not without proof. After all that is a common theme on C/A. That goes the same way lying does. When you are willing to make public statements as fact about people you have never had contact with, do not know and obviously despise, you(general) would be willing to do it to anyone when it suits you. So I am assuming you can back this up with facts.

3. Cause we cant just pull out prematurely without the cuddleing cause that would be STUPID to start a war and then just leave. We are already hated by many peoples in the nations. So I have always said(before the war) if we go in we have to do it right and completely(which I knew we wouldnt do right anyway)to effectively take care of the issues involved. So let another republican have at it. I ,of course will vote against him causeI cant stand the conservative slant in their hearts that is void of Christ and plenty on the rules.

I live in a republican area that beleives he can do no wrong.

It is unfortunate they did not place you as advisor. But I guess for me, I will still go with what those close to me that have been there twice this last war have to say. But they do agree with you, they are certainly hoping and praying it is a republican president till this is over.

These are the ones that again have a first hand glimpse and experience. They are rational enough to explain the bad as well as the good. They are also the ones that pay the price. Much different than those just wishing to act as if they should be the ones running the war or staying out altogether. Nor do they possess the bitterness that so many that sit in their recliners possess.

July 13, 2006

I listen to conservative people cause its important to hear all sides.

I may disagree and get irate at moments but its importnat to listen and ponder both sides.

I dont like bush cause he is a simpleton and a president has to be smart. Morally He might be good(I hope so) but we need bright crayons in the box. Clinton was very smart but not morally so. Hilary has a thirst for power and she is bright but I know alot of people who dont really like her. Not everyone stomachs a strong woman.

BTW I am regestered as a Republican because when I moved from the Bay area to this small agricultural town I had to register to Vote. They dont allow democratic booths at its festival just the Republican Camp. I had to register to vote since my address has changed. There was no democrates brave enough to take the grief this town that particular year. This town is very self rightous nad only a few black people are allowed to live here. In high school there wasnt a black student in my high school. That was in the late 70's.

Of course things have changed...................................................................................................................

slowly

I was not surprised that the republicans didnt tolerate an opposing booth to be set up. Thats the nature of the beast.

The beast also esteems left wingist as lesser than them( i hear republicans say things like that with a self satisfied smirk)) which is a greivious sin. The beast is offended by anything that is different than them. IMHO

I listen and take note of this beast. Their wrath is gonna be its undoing on JUDGEMENT DAY.

well anyhoo, Many of my friends are republicans. Otherwise I wouldnt have anyone to talk to at church or at work or on the street.

I will still be a comedic treehugging herbalist homo commie pinko ruskie dragqueen crossdressing(which is very republican) Madonna and Joan Rivers fashionista John Stewart wannabe who needs a haircut!

ugh! maybe not all of them

July 13, 2006

I lost this adoration for any politician when HUbert Humphy was our Vice President. He lived not more than fifteen miles from usand had to pass thru a small town where a good friend of ours was a cop.

He was in Mpls. giving a speech at a fundraiser for the democrates. You know the kind, the caring, I feel your pain type and all cheered and wondered how this famous man could care so much. What a Minnesotan. We were so lucky. It was all about how much he cared for the little man and boy was he going to help them.

Less than two hours after the speech he and his driver were pulled over for doing 70 in a 45 mile zone. Old Hubie was so incensed he got out of the car and rather unpleasently explained if this silly little man thought he was going to give him a ticket, think again. Old Hubie would see to it this common working man never worked again, least of all as a cop.

From that time on any thought of adoring any politician was quickly removed. But again, maybe if I were blinded by hatred for democrates a good case could be made for my distaste and willingness to believe anything and repeat everything as gospel.

July 13, 2006

Hi Bonnie!

I still like him. But I dont get along with liars. so....

maybe I wont have him over for some tea and cake.

Thanku for sharing all your thoughts. I didnt mean to offend you for I love your name.

I have a lezbian friend who worked with her girlfriend in Maine and they went to their home(vaction home?) to do what they do so well. Massage. And they were in their home and saw that kind of dynamics. Of course Senior Bush Mame was gracious. Dubya became president recently at the time and he was there.

I dont have a sterling character. Everything I shared in my post has been my opinion on these people.

July 13, 2006

Yes the older I get the less I fancy all of them.

I dont remeber hoover. Jimmy Carter was prez when I was a teen and I remeber how unpopular he became and I too didnt like him at the time cause of that TIMELY GIFT from God that we all have -INFLUENCE!

As a kid I didnt think for myself -just listened to the adults rant and assumed they knew what they were talking about.

But seeing Jimmy Carter now and the Books He have wrote and Habitat for Humanity and being a strong principled christian who adores his wife(that always gets ppoints).

I adore him.

I belive Bill Clinton can and will grow. Will he ever truly love and honour his wife and visa versa? Not if power means much more than honesty. But I still like him. He is a charmer.

July 13, 2006

I think the Iraq War is so complicated and that region has such a different mindste and bitter history that it is not simple and Bush burns me up to think it was so simple and LIED to us americans as to Why We MUST Go to W A R NOW!!!!

It wasnt simple. And I was called unpatriotic for having a different opinion- ye gads)) for not wanting to launch a major OFFENCE. Now a few people(too few) now concede it wasnt the smartest thing and should have been handled differently(YA THINK?).

I cant stand him!

and that the only reason but its reason enough.

July 13, 2006

so much for discussing politics.

u wanna try religion or sex?

July 13, 2006

In 1988 GW was working on his father's campaign when an attractive female came on to him and he not so politely used some four-lettered words with her. Later another worker confronted him about it and asked if it was true. GW said yes and explained that he was married. The other worker told GW that the attractive female was very offended. GW responded by saying, "Good, then she got the point."

When a man gets married he enters into a contract with his wife and God. If he cannot be trusted to keep that contract, he cannot be trusted at all. That wisdom comes from Ross Perot and I think is very true.

The love and affection between a President and the First Lady should be inspiring. I remember when Nancy Reagon was diagnosed with breast cancer and had to have a breast removed and how inspiring the President's devotion and care to her was. Likewise, her later devotion and care for him was equally inspiring.

July 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gay4JESUS said:

I think the Iraq War is so complicated and that region has such a different mindste and bitter history that it is not simple and Bush burns me up to think it was so simple and LIED to us americans as to Why We MUST Go to W A R NOW!!!!

It wasnt simple. And I was called unpatriotic for having a different opinion- ye gads)) for not wanting to launch a major OFFENCE. Now a few people(too few) now concede it wasnt the smartest thing and should have been handled differently(YA THINK?).

I cant stand him!

and that the only reason but its reason enough.

I really don't care what your political leanings are or if you have any at all. As to your feelings on the war, those are yours to have. You have missed my point entirely or chosen to slide over it.

I am not overly fond of politicians and make no bones about it.

I did not like Clinton, but try to stick to what is so obvious he did do. I have my own feelings on the capabilities of the man. The 20 some individuals close to him and the scandels he was involved with all suddenly meeting an untimely death.

What the truth is, I don't know.

I know a man that will lie as he did to remain in power will lie over anything. It is just the nature of a liar.

The following statement of yours is what offends me if that is the word you want to use. Which one reflects the real you.

(quote)I am saying a public apology to Danny Shelton.

Because I have have used this forum to rant and rage at this guy for choices I dont understand or agree with. He doesnt answer to me. I am not his judge or jury.

I deeply regret any pain I have added to him or his friends and family members who do go on this forum. I am sorry.(/quote)

Is this who you are? A man that mispoke or feels he did because he did not understand or agree with Danny's choices. You still don't have to like or agree with what is becoming more apparant that he did, but you seem to have remorse for being his judge and jury.

Now when the object of your scorn is a politician, suddenly it seems you are judge and jury, knowing even who wears the pants in the George Sr household. At first spoken as an absolute. You have since of course changed it to personal opinion. You know for a fact regardless of the many, many democratic politicians that concurred with Bush on the danger, and some prior to the decision going to war, that the reasons he gave were a lie. You also make a statement previously that you think or hope he is a moral person. Oxymoron. He cannot be both a liar that will lie about something this important and something that will cost lives of Americans and a moral man. Not that the Iraqi lives are less important, but he is sending his own country men into danger based on his lies.

Much of what you and others say do not go hand in hand. All over this forum for years I can find statements such as your apology to Danny or similar . Sometimes speaking about the most depraved individuals. If that is the real you(general) then that is who you are. If it is your habit to first be concerned with the salvation of those guilty, then you will always be concerned with the chance for redemption of those that committ crimes, or abuse power. Politician or not. If you pick and choose whose redemption and salvation you are concerned over, you really have no real concern. When the next one offends you, you will be more than willing to be his judge and jury

Then you treat all with the same concern about being judge or jury. God did not appoint you judge of politicians. Not much to recommend sympathy for many, but the principal is the same.

If you feel qualified and justified to be judge and jury over one group, you will take the same liberty over the next group that annoys you.

If you lie in one area of your life, you will do so in all area's when convenient.

If you steal from some because they have more than you, you will steal from others.

If you are immoral in one portion of your life, other area's will follow.

Just the nature of the human beast and you cannot avoid it.

So who are you really? That was my point and really no need to answer.

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