Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 9, 2021 Moderators Posted July 9, 2021 NOTE: In a previous thread the subject matter has wandered all over the map. Some comments have related to the infallibility of the Pope. I have decided to continue that in another thread here: In my posted comments I have stated that the Pope (The Bishop of Rome) is only infallible in certain limited situations. At other times, he is subject to doctrinal error. In addition, he is not infallible in his personal life. Gustave has posted statements in agreement with what I have posted. Some have questioned this. In responding to this it would not be fair to provide examples from those who are called the Anti-Popes, as those are not recognized by the Roman Catholic Church today as being valid Popes. Honorius I was elected to become the Bishop of Rome on October 27, 625 and served as Pope until his death on October 12, 638. He is not considered to be an Anti-Pope. He was condemned by the 6th Ecumenical Council (November 7, 680 to September 16, 681). Roman Catholic historians debate whether or not he was condemned for false doctrine or for a failure to suppress false doctrine. Some will suggest that Pope Leo II (682-683) resolved this issue. I am not going to write to that point. I am only pointing out that this is an example of a valid Pope being formally condemned and that condemnation may have been for doctrinal error. Quote Gregory
Gustave Posted July 10, 2021 Posted July 10, 2021 my understanding is that Honorius was condemned for both holding and failing to correct (by official response), false doctrine. If I'm not mistaken this very thing is what separates the Copts and Oriental Orthodox Church (along with the Ethiopian Orthodox and one or more others) from the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church. Quote
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 10, 2021 Author Moderators Posted July 10, 2021 Gustave, you are correct. Some Roman Catholic scholars argue that he was condemned for holding a false doctrine and other Roman Catholic scholars argue that it was for failing to respond to that false doctrine. I have chosen not to get into that argument and suggest that one is more correct than the other. So, both could be accurate. In my background I am not very well informed as to the various church councils, what they debated, and the decisions that were made. You are probably much better informed than I am. Yet they are interesting. They resulted in the schism between the Eastern and Western branches of Christianity. They show that decisions were sometimes influenced by political and secular issues, which is probably true today in the Christian denominations. I find the discussion of iconoclasm and veneration/adoration to be of interest. I also think that the issue of whether or not Mary was Theotokos or was Christotokos is both interesting and important. By the way, the decision of the councils that Mary was Theotokos probably demands that she be declared a perpetual virgin and not the mother of the brothers of Jesus. On a personal basis, I cannot say that the councils always got everything correct. The division between East and West demonstrates that. However, the councils were not always wrong. The rejection of the Monophysitism of Eutycles, in my opinion, was correct. NOTE: In my background I am quite ignorant of the various councils of the early Christian Church. Recently I decided to learn more about them. So, I have been reading a book authored by Hubert Jedin, Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church, and published by the Paulist Press. My copy is an old one. But, I happen to like this book. Quote Gregory
Gustave Posted July 15, 2021 Posted July 15, 2021 Below is the book I bought years ago - it has served me extremely well. The Christian Faith: In the Doctrinal Documents of the Catholic Church: Jacques Dupuis, Jacques Dupuis: 9780818908934: Amazon.com: Books Another "must have" IMHO is: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma: Ludwig Ott: 9780895558053: Amazon.com: Books Quote
Members phkrause Posted July 18, 2021 Members Posted July 18, 2021 On 7/15/2021 at 3:24 PM, Gustave said: The Christian Faith: In the Doctrinal Documents of the Catholic Church: Jacques Dupuis, Jacques Dupuis: 9780818908934: Amazon.com: Books Wow, it must be a miss print by Amazon, but $317 for the paperback?? Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
stinsonmarri Posted July 18, 2021 Posted July 18, 2021 On 7/9/2021 at 3:01 PM, Gregory Matthews said: In my posted comments I have stated that the Pope (The Bishop of Rome) is only infallible in certain limited situations. Pastor, I am totally shocked that you think that any flesh being is infallible period! The definition of the word states: Incapable of making mistakes or being wrong. Oxford Languages I would like anyone to show me a pope that was incapable of making a mistakes or being wrong. If that's the, how or why did they all died! Plus, my understanding, that you believe that no one cannot stop sinning completely that is why YAHSHUA died that is how we are going be saved. Now, the Bible says the dead knows nothing, even their thoughts perish. Gustave chooses to believe something that is not in the Bible. That they are in Heaven. He does have that right. But, then it would not make sense why did YAHSHUA, when HE came from the grave, souls arose from the grave too! So, if someone would be kind to show me Biblically this, I am willing to hear it! Blessings phkrause 1 Quote
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 18, 2021 Author Moderators Posted July 18, 2021 Stinsonmarri: Thank you for pointing out an obvious error in what I posted. I do not think that any human is ever infallible. In my understanding, the Pope is not infallible. Period. You will note that the post I made and you cited, referenced a previous post. In a couple of previous posts, both Gustave and I pointed out that the Roman Catholic Church does not teach that the Pople is always infallible in both doctrine and in personal life. We both pointed out that the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is that the Pope is only infallible in limited circumstances. My personal belief is that the Pople is not infallible in any situation, although he may be correct. As you have pointed out, I made a poorly worded statement that could be subject to misunderstanding. I hope that this gives you a better understanding of my position. stinsonmarri and phkrause 1 1 Quote Gregory
Gustave Posted August 1, 2021 Posted August 1, 2021 On 7/17/2021 at 7:22 PM, phkrause said: Wow, it must be a miss print by Amazon, but $317 for the paperback?? After it went out of print the price elevated - some places are asking over 500.00 for a new copy. Quote
Members phkrause Posted August 3, 2021 Members Posted August 3, 2021 On 7/31/2021 at 11:51 PM, Gustave said: After it went out of print the price elevated - some places are asking over 500.00 for a new copy. That's crazy!! Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Gustave Posted August 3, 2021 Posted August 3, 2021 3 hours ago, phkrause said: That's crazy!! I agree 100%. I bought my copy in the late 80's or early 90's - back then it was on the bookshelf. phkrause 1 Quote
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