Bible bashers are sinful and the liberals pure

[Bravus]

I think you're right, Shane, in stating that there is a *correlation* between strongly moralistic (which is not quite the same thing as moral) laws in particular states and high divorce etc. in those same states, but that that doesn't mean that one *causes* the other: there may well be some third cause behind both sets of stats. For example, it could be argued that poverty causes both some forms of fundamentalism and high divorce stats, and what is being observed is largely a socioeconomic difference between states rather than a religious one.

[Neil D]

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The states that register the highest ratings for Desperate Housewives, the hot new television show, are Bush states.

The complicated truth is that America is a divided and conflicted country. But it is a grotesque exaggeration to say that the split is geographical or correlated with Democrat and Republican states. Many of America's biggest sinners are those most intent on upholding virtue. It may be partly because they know sin close up that they want to prevent its occurrence among others.

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In this report, it seems, the arthor is trying to convince the reader to agree that a more libertarian approach to governoring produces better morality.

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Libertarian??? That word nor definition ever came up...You read too much into the article.

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That would mean that with alcohol legal, we actually have less people drinking than when it was illegal - which is false.

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Not if you also enacted laws to reduce the enticement to drink...For example, reqiring lower productivity or more manpower to output ratio and thus reduce the stress of a job, or reducing the 40 hour work week to 32 hours instead. How about subsidising the juice industry and pop industry to make cheaper drinks, and reduce the cost to relax by making the cost to movies cheaper and cost of spas or country clubs that offer massage therapy...You get the idea...***reduce the desire to drink***, and there is a good chance that with time, the consumption of alcohol will drop.

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It would mean nations with legal abortion actually have less abortion per captia than nations where abortion is illegal - which is false.

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This surmising is also false, as evidenced by The Netherlands.They have a non-restrictive abortion law, widely accessible contraceptives and free abortion services, and the lowest abortion rate in the world: 5.5 abortions per 1,000 women of reproductive age per year. This is from the WHO

They make abortions available, safe, and aim to reduce the number of abortions by making contraception devices available... But to do so, flys in the face of Christian

"family values" by encouraging promiscuity, or so some religious leaders say...The Stats don't support that they say..

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While not everyone in a given society will abide by its laws, the behavior of most will be impacted by what is and what is not illegal.

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And there is not a woman alive today, who thinks to herself, while she loves her kids, wonders what would have been if she had not had children when she did.

[Dr. Shane]

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The Netherlands.They have a non-restrictive abortion law, widely accessible contraceptives and free abortion services, and the lowest abortion rate in the world: 5.5 abortions per 1,000 women of reproductive age per year.

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I am not sure about any of that information... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The UN Integrated Regional Information Network estimated that 4 million abortions were performed illegally in nations where abortion is illegal during 2004. Africa has a population of 700 million and Latin America has a population of 560 million. Abortion is illegal in most of these nations and some Asian nations too. That mean there were less than 3 abortions per 1,000 people in nations where abortion is illegal.

Poplation of the Netherlands is 16.5 million and in 2004 had a little more than 33,000 abortions which means there were just a little more than 2 abortions per 1,000 people - about the same rate as nations where abortion is illegal. However abortion is restricted in the Netherlands. Netherlands: Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport

In the US there are 300 million and there were 1.3 million abortions in 2004. That means there were over 4 abortions per 1,000. (Abortions peeked in 1990 at 1.6 million or more than a 5:1,000 ratio)

The Netherlands give evidence keeping abortion legal and yet passing strict abortion laws may actually be the best way to reduce it. Of course that goes against our arthor's theory that laws against behavior don't work.

[bonnie]

(quote)And there is not a woman alive today, who thinks to herself, while she loves her kids, wonders what would have been if she had not had children when she did.(/quote)

Completly false. You cannot speak for all women. Many of us happen to be very happy with our lives, both past and present.

Never wondered, never cared what life may have been if my children had not been born when they were.

Whatever out there someone may think I/others may have missed

is only in their minds, certainly not in the minds of many of us. Our children were never a burden nor a cause for a missed opportunity

Bonnie

[Gail]

(quote)And there is not a woman alive today, who thinks to herself, while she loves her kids, wonders what would have been if she had not had children when she did.(/quote)

My goodness- I wonder what inspired that remark! That is so far from the truth in my case. I call raising my children my first career

[Neil D]

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Gail said:

(quote)And there is not a woman alive today, who thinks to herself, while she loves her kids, wonders what would have been if she had not had children when she did.(/quote)

My goodness- I wonder what inspired that remark! That is so far from the truth in my case. I call raising my children my first career

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Gail,

You are a rational person...What do you think the above remark says?

[Gail]

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Gail,

You are a rational person...What do you think the above remark says?

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I have no idea. Trying to think back on the days when I hung out with other young mothers (and some not so young), I think that most of them had accepted the eventuality that when the kids were old enough we would have to make our way back into the work force anyway, out of necessity.

I don't know if I can think of any of my friends who regretted motherhood at all. As a matter of fact, as time has gone on I have seen lots more fathers as well spending time with their kids, more so than in my generation.

[Neil D]

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I don't know if I can think of any of my friends who regretted motherhood at all. As a matter of fact, as time has gone on I have seen lots more fathers as well spending time with their kids, more so than in my generation.

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So you are under the impression that the above remark says that mothers regret having thier children?

Forgive me for pressing you on this, but why do you think this?

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And there is not a woman alive today, who thinks to herself, [:"red"] while she loves her kids, [/]wonders what would have been if she had not had children when she did.

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Wouldn't you think, that it is more of a wistful statement? One that is thought about but not taken seriously? No mother is ever going to regret having children, but there is that thought of the "what if...." thoughts....

[Bravus]

I wasn't sure how this linked into the thread discussion though, Neil. I see what you're saying: anyone with any imagination is going to think 'what if my life had taken a different course'.

I just couldn't quite see how it worked as a reply to Shane's statement that the law makes us think about what is right and impacts on our behaviour: maybe you can clarify that.

And using the specific example of mothers has got us off the track... I think it can be broadened out to everyone (with imagination)... unless you were specifically suggesting that mothers think about what would have happened if they aborted their children?

[Gail]

Never occurred to me

[Dr. Shane]

As a father I have never had that thought. My wife and I planned out both of our kids and looked forward to them. I have had the "what if we had a babysitter tonight" thought though. Maybe some women do have those thoughts during post-pardom depression.

[Neil D]

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I wasn't sure how this linked into the thread discussion though, Neil. I see what you're saying: anyone with any imagination is going to think 'what if my life had taken a different course'.

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It was a rebutt to Bonnie's rant "You don't speak for every woman." I was going to ignore the comment, but when Gail gave credence to the remark, I attempted to explain that it was a reasonable wistful albeit female "What if my life had taken a different bent"...

Apparently, my communication skills are still lacking...I guess that means I am still a male.... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[bonnie]

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Neil D said:

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I wasn't sure how this linked into the thread discussion though, Neil. I see what you're saying: anyone with any imagination is going to think 'what if my life had taken a different course'.

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It was a rebutt to Bonnie's rant "You don't speak for every woman." I was going to ignore the comment, but when Gail gave credence to the remark, I attempted to explain that it was a reasonable wistful albeit female "What if my life had taken a different bent"...

Apparently, my communication skills are still lacking...I guess that means I am still a male.... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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And there is not a woman alive today, who thinks to herself, while she loves her kids, wonders what would have been if she had not had children when she did.

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Sorry Neil you considered it a rant. I could have began by telling you to put up or shutup as to a very definitive statement you made without anything to back it up. Of course that would not be acceptable, would it?? So I disagreed with you. Your statement was made first almost a full 24 hours before I said anything. So can you explain how what you stated was in rebuttal to "Bonnie's rant"? One that had yet to take place

RANT- enrage,to disclaim in a loud,agitated,or exaggerated way,rave. To utter in a wild or immoderate way.Vehement or exagerrated declaimation, a ranting speech.

Go back over this thread and take note of what has been said. Take note of who said another sounds like the beast of REV and such, because he disagrees with what you have posted.

Perhaps Stan is right, those that complain the loudest are the most guilty.

Funny that it appears that you have been ranting on this thread for sometime and a short paragraph becomes a rant in your mind.

I am glad a rational woman has informed you that you cannot and are in no position to speak for "all women alive"