wrapped in dried mud

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Are you suggesting these words are not true?

Not at all!

(1. Jesus completely identified Himself with the truth, and with God. That's the only way.

(2. God is alway God, the same God, where ever you find Him. That is because there is only One God.

A rose by any other name... etc. Some call Him Jehovah, some call Him Allah, some call Him Brahama, some call Him the Great Spirit. He is the same One. Just as it says in Isaiah, "There is none besides Me."

I'm happy to see your conclusions in the top two statements, and agree heartily with both myself. OTOH I do not see the consistency between the bold printed statement and this Word in the light of those who considered Allah (God) the one to worship as they flew their hijacked planes into the world trade center to the destruction of close to three thousand lives.

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen." 1 John 4:20 ASV

"For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:56 KJV

[David Koot]

(2. God is alway God, the same God, where ever you find Him. That is because there is only One God. A rose by any other name... etc. Some call Him Jehovah, some call Him Allah, some call Him Brahama, some call Him the Great Spirit. He is the same One.

True, there is only one God, but the other 'gods' you mentioned are different. They are not described in the same way as the Bible describes God, nor are they the same. They are false gods.

[Naomi]

[D. Allan]

Quote:

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen." 1 John 4:20 ASV

"For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:56 KJV

Two beautiful verses! Unfortunately many people do not live by them.

[D. Allan]

David,

If they are false, then they don't exist. The Bible states plainly that there is only One God, and there is none other.

God answers to many names. God can tell by looking at your heart if He is the One you are calling on. God will not refuse to hear a child of His, just because he hears a name not recognized by Christians.

I heard a pastor once preach, "Be careful, or Satan might answer your prayers!" Now That is scary. Do you suppose the content of some of our prayers might be more properly addressed to Satan?

[David Koot]

God answers to many names. God can tell by looking at your heart if He is the One you are calling on. God will not refuse to hear a child of His, just because he hears a name not recognized by Christians.

True enough, God takes people where they are. However, that is a rather different issue than the intrinsic identity of these false god figures, as in fact God. They are not. The characters and actions of Allah, Brahma, and other false gods, are significantly different than the God of the Bible.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen." 1 John 4:20 ASV

"For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:56 KJV

Two beautiful verses! Unfortunately many people do not live by them.

As to the bold, the "many people" referred to, have that right given to them because the one true God places free will (or freedom of choice) in the hands of all. Something of which those who worship false gods are, for the most part, unwilling to give to others who disagree with themselves, as witnessed by those who take the lives of others without giving choice.

Even the wicked are given free choice by the God Who is Love, though they often use their free choice to take free choice away from the ones who serve, such as Jesus and His disciples.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11 ASV

Regards!

[Nicodema]

...because the one true God places free will (or freedom of choice) in the hands of all. Something of which those who worship false gods are, for the most part, unwilling to give to others who disagree with themselves, as witnessed by those who take the lives of others without giving choice.

According to SDA eschatology, this one true God Himself, in fact, also takes away the lives of "others who disagree" and gives them no choice in the matter whatsoever about this. However, it seems we have invented a special word for this, so that we don't have to equate it with the behavior of "false gods" and their "followers": we call it "consequences." Nevertheless, when speaking of a Being whom we may readily deduce possesses the power to actually dictate how Reality itself will work, and of what Cause and Effect shall consist, the distinction can become pretty slim, and very fuzzy.

Are there any more convincing apologies (in the old sense of the word, as in statements put forth by apologists) for making a distinction here than the standard fare? If so, I would be most interested to hear them. I would like to believe God is not like those He condemns; but sometimes admittedly I have great difficulty doing so. Thank you kindly for your patience with me.

[Paula]

Nicodema, you saidm "I would like to believe God is not like those He condemns; but sometimes admittedly I have great difficulty doing so."

I think the point is that He IS GOD. Therefore, He CAN act anyway he wants to and STILL be completely 100% right and fair.. He can get away with anything He wants to because He IS GOD. As a very wise man by the name of Rich Mullins used to say, "It doesn't do to argue with God. He always wins, no matter what I say. He's God."

[D. Allan]

Quote:

True enough, God takes people where they are. However, that is a rather different issue than the intrinsic identity of these false god figures, as in fact God. They are not. The characters and actions of Allah, Brahma, and other false gods, are significantly different than the God of the Bible.

The way I see it there is only ONE God. If Allah, Brahma, etc. are false gods, then they do not exist. They have no intrinsic identity. They have no characters. They have no actions. Because they do not exist. There is only one God. With many names.

Of course people have different ideas, conceptions of God. Some are wrong. If they are sincere, and have an open mind God will lead them no matter what name they give Him. He has to overlook our misconceptions of Him.

The famous story of Sundar Singh, as I remember it:

An east Indian Hindu you was mad at Christians for bringing their religion to India. He used to burn their literature, and Bibles. After his mother died he went into deep depression and prayed for God to reveal Himself. He vowed to throw himself under the evening train wheels unless God revealed himself to him. He prayed the whole night. Now I doubt he prayed to the Christian God, because he was a Hindu, and hated Christians. Just minutes before the train was to arrive, Sundar Singh, had a vision. And guess what, it was Jesus who showed up saying to Sundar, "Why are you percecuting me." Sundar Singh became a devout Christian, who walked all over India imitating his new master. He also wrote some inspriation books.

I imagine his conception of God broadened.

[Nicodema]

I think the point is that He IS GOD. Therefore, He CAN act anyway he wants to and STILL be completely 100% right and fair.. He can get away with anything He wants to because He IS GOD.

Right, exactly Paula: that's the whole problem, right there. You've just summarized the problem itself and begged the question it raises all at once.

But not answered it, alas ...

[David Koot]

I think the point is that He IS GOD. Therefore, He CAN act anyway he wants to and STILL be completely 100% right and fair.

That is a fact. And God's sovereignty was a big issue--THE big issue, in Satan's rebellion against God. Lucifer felt that he should have been included in the council of the Godhead for planning the creation of this world. God did not include him. After all, Lucifer was a created being, not God. But the bottom line was that God had every right to make His decision as He chose. But, Satan wasn't satisfied with that. Then, he went around to the other angels to get their support. He instigated, fomented rebellion. When he thought he had enough power, he acted--and lost. Tried to get back his original position, but at heart, still unrepentant. Sorry to have lost! Foiled in heaven, but allowed to continue living, he came to this earth, and tried the very same tack. the issue? God's sovereignty, demonstrated by His setting aside a tree as His. He had every right to. He was Creator and Sovereign. But, there was that 'sovereignty' issue again, and Satan HATED God's sovereignty. So, he tempted Eve. Notice the several things which Satan, speaking through the serpent, offered Eve: immortality, even if she sinned; divinity, to be a goddess; and, of course, the exercise of sovereignty. From that day until now, Satan has attacked God's sovereignty, and misrepresented God's character, making Him out to be a tyrant. Why? Because God drew that line, and Satan wasn't included.

Aside from the issue of sovereignty, the reality is that God is utterly selfless. I am not sure if Satan is simply incapable of comprehending that, (for Satan is consumed with self) or if he knows better, but misrepresents what God is like. Whatever the cause of the misunderstanding, God is the way He is. Because Satan had so misrepresented the character of God, Jesus came to show people what God is really like. In stark contrast with Satan, who sought to exalt himself, Jesus HUMBLED Himself, and took the form of a servant. His life was spent in service and blessing. In doing so, He was acting out the very character of God, Who He was and is. In the end, He humbled Himself to the point of the cruelest death, and Satan was given freedom to vent all his hatred and spite upon the innocent Lamb of God. All the universe then saw what God was really like, and what Satan was really like. Satan was exposed for what he truly is, and so "fell" from heaven.

The self-sacrificing, self-effacing Jesus was God in the flesh. He showed us what God is really like. . And, we can be thankful for that !

Dave

[Nicodema]

Anyway, as I was saying ...

According to SDA eschatology, this one true God Himself, in fact, also takes away the lives of "others who disagree" and gives them no choice in the matter whatsoever about this. However, it seems we have invented a special word for this, so that we don't have to equate it with the behavior of "false gods" and their "followers": we call it "consequences." Nevertheless, when speaking of a Being whom we may readily deduce possesses the power to actually dictate how Reality itself will work, and of what Cause and Effect shall consist, the distinction can become pretty slim, and very fuzzy.

I was hoping to hear something in response to this that isn't the standard apologetic fare, as it falls stale and flat in the face of this issue. What basis -- beyond the despicable, deplorable, immoral and highly unworkable "might makes right" invoked a few posts back -- is there for making a distinction here, between God and those He condemns? I see no difference. Sauce for the goose is gravy for the gander, as they say. I would like to believe God is not like those He condemns; but sometimes admittedly I have great difficulty doing so. And nothing posted here yet has done anything to aid me therein, but rather make me even more convinced that "Houston, we've got a problem" when it comes to our current understanding and portrayal of God. In short, it just falls way too short. WAY too short.

Quote:

The self-sacrificing, self-effacing Jesus was God in the flesh. He showed us what God is really like. . And, we can be thankful for that!

And yet as wonderful as that is, if in the end it is naught but an excuse for something heinous -- a demonstration designed to earn a reputation in the eyes of the universe so that no questions are asked when the eternal annihilation is doled out upon the disagreeing masses -- how real is it, then, really???

[David Koot]

Anyway, as I was saying ...

According to SDA eschatology, this one true God Himself, in fact, also takes away the lives of "others who disagree" and gives them no choice in the matter whatsoever about this.

[Nicodema]

David, please don't take offense at this -- and yes I'm aware it's a public forum, you are free to post as you wish, etc. -- but I would really like to hear the thoughts of others on this matter instead of you steering the discussion. Can that be OK? Please?

[David Koot]

but I would really like to hear the thoughts of others on this matter instead of you steering the discussion.

Let me see, this thread was started by Rudywoofs, and various others have participated, including myself. You, also have posted on this thread, along with others. As for 'steering' the thread, I expect that Rudywoofs would have more say on that, since she started the thread. Perhaps we should ask what her wishes are?

Beyond that, as you pointed out, this is a public forum, and as such, whoever has an interest in the various topics, should be free to post and respond. Speaking for myself, I have had no thought of restricting whomever wishes to participate in this or any forum.

I think what you are asking for is, in fact, an effort to 'steer' this thread--Rudywoof's thread. I suggest that if you want to restrict who participates in a discussion, then you could set up a private forum somewhere and start a discussion there, and steer it. Or, perhaps PM's between selected individuals. I think another option might be Yahoo IM, which allows for conference chats.

[Nicodema]

I did not think you would allow it to be OK. And you think wrong -- as you always do whenever you think on me personally. I have no interest in "steering" anything OR "restricting who participates." I only seek answers to my questions and some relief from your incessant insistence upon dominating every conversation on this board.

Have it your way -- you always do -- I shall take my questions elsewhere.

[David Koot]

your incessant insistence upon dominating every conversation on this board.

Statistically, that is not correct. I participate on relatively few threads on these forums, but I usually enjoy the ones I do get involved in. I typically look forward to C/A as a pleasant and stimulating experience.

[Nicodema]

Nevertheless, I still would like the opportunity to hear what others have to say.

[David Koot]

Nevertheless, I still would like the opportunity to hear what others have to say.

Since you are now one of the participants on this thread, and there are a number of participants, I can't imagine why that wouldn't happen. Personally, I am looking forward to some further dialog with a number of individuals on this thread, about subjects that several of us were discussing. If you also wish to participate, I assume that would be okay.

[Nicodema]

I was not the one who derailed the thread here ... I merely followed behind where the train of thought was already in progress. If you wish to return to the original topic, it's no skin off my nose.

[David Koot]

I was not the one who derailed the thread here ... I merely followed behind where the train of thought was already in progress. If you wish to return to the original topic, it's no skin off my nose.

We were discussing the various gods worshiped in world religions, originally. As I recall, you responded to one of those posts. I must say that your posts seemed off the topic of the thread, but whatever . . . at any rate, back to topic. Such things tend to take care of themselves, if left alone.

[Nicodema]

actually the original topic started by Pam was, what's missing in the church. so if my reply to a post about various godforms seemed off topic, it was, at the very least, an off topic reply to an already off topic post. :D

[LifeHiscost]

The characters and actions of Allah, Brahma, and other false gods, are significantly different than the God of the Bible.

And that's a fact!!

"..and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and your son’s son the mighty things I have done in Egypt, and My signs which I have done among them, that you may know that I am the LORD.”" Exodus 10:2 NKJV

"To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him."

Deuteronomy 4:35 NKJV

[LifeHiscost]

Beautiful story of God's forbearance, typical of His mercy and love for all.

"And Jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34 ASV

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9 KJV