If nothing can be done ...

August 31, 2006

... does that mean it's time to stop caring? To withdraw friendship? To no longer waste your time and energy showing love and compassion, acceptance, forgiveness and understanding to someone?

how does determining that "nothing can be done" about someone (spiritually) affect or impact whether you will continue to invest time and energy into them personally? should such a thing impact or change that? if the person is enjoying your friendship for its own sake but has no interest in being a Christian or, let's say, stopping something you find morally objectionable (but which does not harm you or anyone but themselves) is a conclusion that "nothing can be done" about them or for them, spiritually, to change them -- is this then legitimate grounds for ending the association? why or why not? would you choose to do so? why or why not?

i'd like to hear how ppl think on this. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/dancingman2.gif" alt="" />

August 31, 2006

My opinion is that there is never a time when "nothing can be done". My opinion is that all things are possible with God. My opinion is that the only time nothing can be done is when the Lord returns.

August 31, 2006

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... does that mean it's time to stop caring? To withdraw friendship? To no longer waste your time and energy showing love and compassion, acceptance, forgiveness and understanding to someone?

Stop caring???

You can always treat another with love and compassion. To be forgiving should be a part of our nature.

It seems to me that we must met people in a non-judgemental way on the level of their spirtuial journey in which they presently exist; as opposed to expecting them to be at our stage in our personal journey.

Moreover, it appears to be an issue of strength. If we choose to be physically and personally involved, are we strong enough to be there for them to pull them up. Or are they the stronger personality who will bring us down to their lever (way of thinking)?

There is nothing more powerful than prayer. When we sincerely pray for another the Holy Spirit can do what we, as mortals, can not do ...

Just my :2cents:

Naomi

August 31, 2006

Sometimes prayer is all one can do. Until probation ends, there is always hope.

August 31, 2006

In my experience, this situation takes care of itself. If two people are headed different directions, eventually their paths separate. This is not a matter of "giving up" or ceasing to care, simply a matter of priorities and destinations.

In most cases, your paths simply diverge. The other person will become increasingly uncomfortable with your different destinations, and remove themselves from your company.

OR

They will see the value in how you live, and want to share it. Keep on keeping on, and these things will sort themselves out.

August 31, 2006

The Holy Spirit knows the heart and what can or can't be done. God can do some big things in spite of us!

August 31, 2006

My opinion is that is not my call to make. In the parables of the seeds and sowers, we are not called to shepherd the people we come into contact with all the way to salvation. We are not called to be the harvester.

We are called to sow the seeds of the Gospel. We have no way of knowing their hearts and so cannot make determinations such as "there is nothing else that can be done". We can only do as we are called to do... to plant the seed, to nurture it with our prayers, and allow the Holy Spirit to tend it and bring it to full fruition.

I have given up on my husband so many times over the last 8 years. 8 years I have prayed for him. And Tuesday evening I came home, he was scribbling rapidly on a piece of paper.

When I sat down to take off my shoes, he looked up and excitedly told me he wanted to read me something.

What he read to me, moved me to tears. He had written a beautiful, heartfelt poem about how he feels about Jesus, His sacrifice for us, and how much he (my husband) missed Him and longed for heaven.

There was no inkling at all that this was going on in his heart and mind. I never taught him anything other than the quiet, *silent* witness of my life. And lots and lots and lots of consistent, structured, constant prayer.

We are called to sow the seeds, not reap the harvest.

August 31, 2006

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Clio said:

..........................

There was no inkling at all that this was going on in his heart and mind. I never taught him anything other than the quiet, *silent* witness of my life. And lots and lots and lots of consistent, structured, constant prayer.

We are called to sow the seeds, not reap the harvest.

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/untitled.bmp" alt="" /> The greatest sermons ever preached are lived not spoken

Naomi

August 31, 2006

These are all very excellent and thought-provoking answers! Thank you all for indulging me.

I want to probe a little further on what Ed said ...

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Ed Dickerson said:

In my experience, this situation takes care of itself. If two people are headed different directions, eventually their paths separate. This is not a matter of "giving up" or ceasing to care, simply a matter of priorities and destinations.

In most cases, your paths simply diverge. The other person will become increasingly uncomfortable with your different destinations, and remove themselves from your company.

OR

They will see the value in how you live, and want to share it. Keep on keeping on, and these things will sort themselves out.

I totally get what you're saying about paths diverging OR someone seeing the value in how you live and wanting to share it. But as a Christian, if someone is clearly not going to respond to Christ and only wants YOU because you offer those good values in your life to them in friendship, yet nothing can be done for them, and let's say further that they have some particular sin or something that really stands out, you cannot avoid encountering it in them, and the presence of it is burdensome or drags you down negatively -- and it's intrinsic, like say for example no matter what the conversation is, every time you talk with them it is like talking to a talking serpent or something, they don't do anything on purpose but because of their outlook on life and beliefs it just feels that way to you -- what then? You can't very well ask someone to be someone they are not, and you can't (in my hypothetical dilemma) keep letting their darkness infect you so what as a Christian are you going to do? I guess that was my question. Do you choose for their welfare, knowing regardless of how they are your presence might be a necessary manifestation of Christ to them? Or do you choose for yourself and your own welfare, and save your soul from the taint?

Maybe I'm not making myself clear here ... or maybe it's that modern "relationships" (friendships) among people are so detached these days it really seems like a non-issue ...?

*I wish I had Pam's little "HELP!" emoticon about now! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

August 31, 2006

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Nicodema said:

I want to probe a little further on what Ed said ...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Ed Dickerson said:

In my experience, this situation takes care of itself. If two people are headed different directions, eventually their paths separate. This is not a matter of "giving up" or ceasing to care, simply a matter of priorities and destinations.

In most cases, your paths simply diverge. The other person will become increasingly uncomfortable with your different destinations, and remove themselves from your company.

OR

They will see the value in how you live, and want to share it. Keep on keeping on, and these things will sort themselves out.

I totally get what you're saying about paths diverging OR someone seeing the value in how you live and wanting to share it. But as a Christian, if someone is clearly not going to respond to Christ and only wants YOU because you offer those good values in your life to them in friendship, yet nothing can be done for them, and let's say further that they have some particular sin or something that really stands out, you cannot avoid encountering it in them, and the presence of it is burdensome or drags you down negatively -- and it's intrinsic, like say for example no matter what the conversation is, every time you talk with them it is like talking to a talking serpent or something, they don't do anything on purpose but because of their outlook on life and beliefs it just feels that way to you -- what then? You can't very well ask someone to be someone they are not, and you can't (in my hypothetical dilemma) keep letting their darkness infect you so what as a Christian are you going to do? I guess that was my question. Do you choose for their welfare, knowing regardless of how they are your presence might be a necessary manifestation of Christ to them? Or do you choose for yourself and your own welfare, and save your soul from the taint?

Maybe I'm not making myself clear here ... or maybe it's that modern "relationships" (friendships) among people are so detached these days it really seems like a non-issue ...?

*I wish I had Pam's little "HELP!" emoticon about now! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ahhhhh.... Now you are clear. And I will expand my answer a little. We can sow the seeds, which you are doing and have done. And then, it becomes the task of the Holy Spirit combined with their freedom to choose.

We must each work out our own salvation. As a friend, you can continue to pray for them, whether you associate with them or not.

I have a friend who is wiccan. It is difficult for me to socialize with her unless I consciously choose to put on my armor from Ephesians 6 before doing so. I don't socialize with her much, but when I do, and I wear my armor, I can do so without the discomfort being around her normally brings. You see, I can "feel" her "friends".

My husband, who only has the hedge of protection feels her presence like slogging through a slime pit. It doesn't stick, but it's uncomfortable, and makes him nauseous. He's still learning about the armor.

As such, we have allowed this friendship to drift apart, although we are still friendly when we run into this couple. But they have known us long enough to know clearly where we stand, and we have planted seeds I'm sure. I know we have, because we've had numerous discussions. I have fulfilled my mission, and now she's the Holy Spirit's responsibility.

She, like many others, remains in my prayers, but we have drifted apart as where we place our priorities are very different.

August 31, 2006

Does someone choose for that person's welfare?

Yes, and more- because God's love constrains them to do so

August 31, 2006

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But as a Christian, if someone is clearly not going to respond to Christ and only wants YOU because you offer those good values in your life to them in friendship,

There is no real friendship without confrontation. By confrontation, I mean "clarifying the status of the relationship." Without spending the hour and a half I do on this in my workshop, let's just say that every healthy relationshiip demands continual clarification, in other words, continually confrontation.

So the first step is to clarify the relationship, as in, "You say (or appear) to value this in our friendship, but I see no indication that you want it in your own life. That concerns me, because it's a central value to me."

Their answer may very clearly indicate that they intend to be a parasite off of that good quality (although they will say it differently). In that case, it is best for both your sakes to back off at least one level of friendship (there are seven), so as to regain proper balance. This in itself will be a form of clarification, and will likely lead to further clarification.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

yet nothing can be done for them, and let's say further that they have some particular sin or something that really stands out, you cannot avoid encountering it in them, and the presence of it is burdensome or drags you down negatively -- and it's intrinsic, like say for example no matter what the conversation is, every time you talk with them it is like talking to a talking serpent or something, they don't do anything on purpose but because of their outlook on life and beliefs it just feels that way to you -- what then?

Once again, confrontation/clarification is needed. As in, "When you say/do/act such-and-such, it causes me great difficulty because it reminds/brings up feelings of situations/events/practices that I no longer want to be part of my life.

There is much more that can be done along this line. What is crucial is that you are not "giving up on" the other person. You're confronting them with choices.

One thing the devil doesn't want us to see is clear choices. If we saw that saying this word or turning down that road, visitng that website or watching tha movie would cause us or others eternal damage, we wouldn't do them.

At the same time, if we saw that certain choices could lead to eternal bliss, we would jump at them.

So the devil wants everything hazy, indefinite, iffy. Nowhere is this more true than in our relationship with Jesus and with others. The clearer these choices are, the less chance he has.

So that's what I try to do in all my relationships: make them as clear and as clean as I can find a way to do it.

Satan likes to trap us in a category of relationships best described as "missionary dating," consorting with evil in order to win it over. But that's only fair to the other person if it's up front. We ought to say, "I'm being your friend in order to convert you," in which case the absurdity of the situation would abort the relationship.

My task as a Christian is not to convert people, but to bless them. If they respond to God's blessings in a positive way, the Holy Spirit will convert them.

So I can honestly say, "I'm your friend because I want to bless you, and because being with you is also a blessing to me." Honest, non-manipulative, humble, and great fun!

September 1, 2006

Hi Nic. Thanks for your question.

The Bible says if we run with an angry man we will learn his ways. Those whom we associate with will have an impact on us.

Many people are not excited about resolving their issues, but their lives are in bondage because of them. The statement that "nothing can be done" is often a declaration that they are unwilling to face things that should be resolved.

If the issue is a moral one, we need to speak the truth in love to that person. Don't attack them. Tell them how it makes you feel, and that God is bringing you to admit that the influence is harmful by association.

Loving people often means confronting them without attacking them. Humble yourself first and seek the Lord's direction.

Unless it's a spouse we are talking about, there comes a time when we must follow the Lord and He leads away from such things.

Over the last 4-years, 100% of people who have come to our office for counseling have had some cleaning to do in the moral area. I did too, 20-years ago.

A couple came in here last year. They had been living together for 8-years. They were destroying each other emotionally. They had convinced themselves that they 'loved' each other initially. What they didn't understand was that a couple who lives together outside of marriage is deeply wounding the hearts of each other. They are damaging each other's spirit. Consequences come in immediately. Conflict results, usually within 2-weeks time. I led them through the moral issues and took it to Jesus. He broke the bondage. They decided to get married. We attended the wedding and it was a neat experience. They are still together.

I hope this reply isn't going the wrong direction. It's the best I can with the little information I have.

Let me say this: Dating & evangelism are a bad mix.

God has a good purpose for your life,

gcw

September 4, 2006

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Naomi said:

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/untitled.bmp" alt="" /> The greatest sermons ever preached are lived not spoken

Naomi

[:"blue"] The strongest argument in favor of the gospel is a loving and lovable Christian.[/] AG 276.7

September 4, 2006

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Gail said:

God can do some big things in spite of us!

____________________________ <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/yeahthat.gif" alt="" />

At all times and whatever our intellectual conclusions might lead us in rationalizing. And I use that term (rationalizing) as it should be used, a positive reasoning.

A personal prayer of mine, praising God for being greater than my sinfulness, which allows me to place a person before God without concern whether I am "good enough" to intervene on their behalf.

[:"red"] "It is of Jehovah's lovingkindnesses that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not." [/] Lamentations 3:22 ASV

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