Cynical About God-Talk?

September 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

If we could admit that we are fallen and uncertain and that we don't always know how to interpret every situation, can't always resolve our conflicts, and sometimes simply choose to move in new directions, we could break the power of the Code and end the cynicism we create by misusing words about God.

If this intrigues you a bit, read the rest of the short thought-provoking essay from which it came at Christianity Today and offer your reactions.

Tom

September 5, 2006

"One of the greatest causes of cynicism among Christians is the way we lather God-talk over our lives in order to obscure realities we consider too painful to discuss directly."

Excellent article Tom -- thanks for pointing me to it.

(How are you & yours BTW?)

September 6, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

From the article cited above:

It might help us to remember that human beings (even Christian ones) are fallible and "see through a glass darkly." Surely there is plenty of biblical evidence of faithful people who misunderstood God's will or did not receive clear direction about every decision. Is it really impossible for us to say, "I think I misunderstood what God was leading me to do"? Or even, "I made a mistake in coming here"?

That's very much what I've gone through with regard to the whole going-to-Andrews thing. The only problem is, I'm SO uncertain, that I honestly don't know whether I should say, "I thought God was leading me there but now I feel I may have been mistaken in that" OR "God was leading me there and I was mistaken not to go." The fact is, I'm entirely uncertain.

And therein lies the crux of a matter that disturbs me very deeply about Christianity. Barring a bona fide supernatural event witnessable by others, such as the voice on Mt. Sinai or the angel wrestling with Jacob, there really is NO WAY AT ALL to tell for certain whether the God has spoken to you or not. I'm not talking about "general instructions that apply to everyone" that can be read in scripture and tell us HOW to live -- that "speaking" was already done and is recorded for us to read whether we hear a Divine Voice or not. I'm talking about the personal things concerning WHAT to live, such as "God is telling me to pursue mission work" or "God wants me to move to Alaska" or whatever.

Most of you know I come from an eclectic occult background (primarily Thelema & ceremonial magick). What you don't know is I never had that kind of complete and total uncertainty factor as a practicing ritual magickian or gnostic priestess working with other gods and goddesses outside the Christian paradigm. As a result it was never an issue, either, whether I "misheard" or not; the fellowship around me was composed of those who knew how to respect the boundaries and parameters of another's path just as clearly as they knew how to raise a caring alert if someone seemed at risk for losing touch with common reality in the process. In Christianity, EVERYTHING rides on the notion of absolute, objective truth -- and therefore any given thing is either from God or totally NOT. There is no grey area as there is in occultism, for recognizing the permutations and variations that occur in the space where the 'divine' communication interfaces with a subjective human mind. And there were no 'penalties' in occultism for getting it wrong either, other than natural consequences which one might wish to avoid, however with Christianity the 'penalty' for erring about God's leading (or lack thereof) can result in some really snarky feedback from the Throne at the Final Judgment, and even a potential eternal rejection slip.

These matters grieve me deeply.

September 6, 2006

I echo your reaction to the article since I tend to appreciate having my brain cells vigorously exercised...

Your honestly expressed thoughts are realistic reflections of life that I think is far more common than most desperate for certainty about spirituality, God's will, etc.

And thanks for asking about me and mine... All's well with us as we struggle along and muddle through our busy lives...

I have a whole jumble of thoughts rattling around in the skull in reaction to the article and to your post, but I can't sort them out too well right now... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/offtobed.gif" alt="" />

Tom

September 6, 2006

Just a note of interest, Tom...

I see your current avatar is Hobbes.

I don't know if there is any connection, but as Wikipedia says, "[:"red"]Hob: [:"blue"] an old name for the Devil[/]"[/]

Graeme

September 7, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

That's very much what I've gone through with regard to the whole going-to-Andrews thing. The only problem is, I'm SO uncertain, that I honestly don't know whether I should say, "I thought God was leading me there but now I feel I may have been mistaken in that" OR "God was leading me there and I was mistaken not to go." The fact is, I'm entirely uncertain.

And therein lies the crux of a matter that disturbs me very deeply about Christianity. Barring a bona fide supernatural event witnessable by others, such as the voice on Mt. Sinai or the angel wrestling with Jacob, there really is NO WAY AT ALL to tell for certain whether the God has spoken to you or not. I'm not talking about "general instructions that apply to everyone" that can be read in scripture and tell us HOW to live -- that "speaking" was already done and is recorded for us to read whether we hear a Divine Voice or not. I'm talking about the personal things concerning WHAT to live, such as "God is telling me to pursue mission work" or "God wants me to move to Alaska" or whatever.

Most of you know I come from an eclectic occult background (primarily Thelema & ceremonial magick). What you don't know is I never had that kind of complete and total uncertainty factor as a practicing ritual magickian or gnostic priestess working with other gods and goddesses outside the Christian paradigm. As a result it was never an issue, either, whether I "misheard" or not; the fellowship around me was composed of those who knew how to respect the boundaries and parameters of another's path just as clearly as they knew how to raise a caring alert if someone seemed at risk for losing touch with common reality in the process. In Christianity, EVERYTHING rides on the notion of absolute, objective truth -- and therefore any given thing is either from God or totally NOT. There is no grey area as there is in occultism, for recognizing the permutations and variations that occur in the space where the 'divine' communication interfaces with a subjective human mind. And there were no 'penalties' in occultism for getting it wrong either, other than natural consequences which one might wish to avoid, however with Christianity the 'penalty' for erring about God's leading (or lack thereof) can result in some really snarky feedback from the Throne at the Final Judgment, and even a potential eternal rejection slip.

These matters grieve me deeply.

Wow. How interesting to hear my own struggles with this issue echoed here. The idea of Abba "leading in my life" was esoteric and unfathomable for much of my life.

How could one possibly rid oneself of any uncertainties regarding something so totally subjective and unprovable?

I can only tell you what happened to me. Prayer became a huge part of my life. I prayed constantly for guidance, asked for blinking neon signs that couldn't be missed, and finally, in desperation, asked that all doors be slammed shut that Abba didn't want me walking through.

The first few times, I stepped out in faith, with fear and trembling... literally.

After enough times of praying for guidance, waiting, waiting, waiting, till it seemed like stupidity ruled my life and then jumping through the open door, I started to recognize His fingers arranging things. Now I've reached a new point in the journey.

I recognize when He is leading, but evidently I've passed some sort of growth line in the faith department. Instead of seeing the immediate reason why He's opened certain doors, or receiving an immediate blessing, I often am called to serve someone else's need for a blessing and encouragement.

I don't seem to worry about it much anymore. (musing aloud here) Instead, I just.... wait....and continue to pray for His neon, flashing, signpost guidance so I don't miss something important. I spend a lot of time in prayer, constantly carrying on a conversation with both the Holy Spirit and True Jesus, and Abba. Depending on my mood and need of the moment.

But... (still musing aloud and trying to quantify what happens in my spirit and emotions while seeking guidance)...I seem to have reached a place where I know Him well enough to just be able to wait on His timing and for the right doors at the right time to open up.

This is still new enough to me that I am just recognizing it as a growth line on "growing in Him" and to marvel at the peace I feel in situations that should not make me peaceful at all.

The only analogy I can come up with is obedience as children learn it. Initially obedience comes because mama and daddy promise a good thing if you are obedient and a bad thing if you're not. As time passes, you learn the why's of obedience to your parents. Eventually, you can see for yourself even the delayed blessings of being obedient.

September 7, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Tom Wetmore said:

I have a whole jumble of thoughts rattling around in the skull in reaction to the article and to your post, but I can't sort them out too well right now... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/offtobed.gif" alt="" />

If you ever do, Tom, you'll have a captive audience here. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

September 7, 2006

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Clio said:

I can only tell you what happened to me. Prayer became a huge part of my life. I prayed constantly for guidance, asked for blinking neon signs that couldn't be missed, and finally, in desperation, asked that all doors be slammed shut that Abba didn't want me walking through.

This is the part where I get to be seen as an argumentative brat who isn't worth wasting time on, right? Because I've been there, done that, and it didn't work for me that way. At this point I'm not even capable of prayer -- even trying to go there is like trying to walk through a six-foot lead wall surrounded by locked iron gates. It ain't happening.

Still, I always appreciate your insights.

September 7, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Clio said:

I can only tell you what happened to me. Prayer became a huge part of my life. I prayed constantly for guidance, asked for blinking neon signs that couldn't be missed, and finally, in desperation, asked that all doors be slammed shut that Abba didn't want me walking through.

This is the part where I get to be seen as an argumentative brat who isn't worth wasting time on, right? Because I've been there, done that, and it didn't work for me that way. At this point I'm not even capable of prayer -- even trying to go there is like trying to walk through a six-foot lead wall surrounded by locked iron gates. It ain't happening.

Still, I always appreciate your insights.

No Nico... Not an argumentive brat... someone walking it out... a very tough road too, at that.

I guess it sounds like it was a short season where I prayed constantly for that guidance. It only takes seconds to read. But I prayed for guidance, miracles, a door, a window, a silver lining, anything... for one single issue for at least 3 years. And those years were miserable. Looking back, I see now I was praying in a way He couldn't honor.

I kept telling Him I only wanted to walk in His will... and then I would proceed to tell Him what I thought His will should be for me at that point in my life. Everything else that I prayed about in those 3 years He answered and granted most graciously, but this one thing He was totally silent on.

I guess I was too stubborn to quit praying, even when the only prayer I could utter was "Help me". Over time, my prayers on that topic subtly changed. And when I quit trying to help Him, He helped me. Not in the way I expected, or even wanted, but had I known then all that I know now... I wouldn't change a thing.

I understand about not being able to pray. I've been through a season these last few months where prayer has come hard. Or not at all. Prayer for myself especially. I seem to be able to pray for others, but for myself.... it just seems to dry up, all the conversations I want to have with Abba. And when prayer does finally come to my lips for myself, it comes with tears, and such agony of emotion I feel like I'm going to suffocate.

I try to remember to offer up all the innermost parts of myself when the tears do come, and I can pray for me. It's the only time all the walls and strongholds are down, so I ask the Holy Spirit to get into every nook and cranny, tearing out what is unlovely, unholy, and dross within me.

Not argumetive, Nico. Human.

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