Covenants

[David_McQueen]

My favourite subject again.

Does anyone mind directing a bible study what the old and new covenant are?

What their terms and conditions are?

Whom the covenants were made with?

[David Koot]

I should be GLAD--even DELIGHTED to participate in such a study. Right now, I am carrying on a Thursday evening study with a Calvinist, on that very topic. Last Thursday, we studied the Abrahamic covenant. We will be getting into the old covenant shortly. Right now, I must leave for a study. I would look forward to starting on this project, this evening.

Best regards,

Dave

[Robert]

What their terms and conditions are?

Let's kill two birds with one stone:

• Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them [the Jews] is that they may be saved. 2 I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law [the fulfillment of the law], that every one who has faith may be justified.

  Now the Old Covenant:

  5 Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall by it live.

  Now the New Covenant:

  6 But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach); 9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.

  11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. 13 For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

[David Koot]

What their terms and conditions are?

Whom the covenants were made with?

The Old Covenant is recorded in Ex. 19:3 - 8--

"Ex 19:3 And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself.

5 'Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.

6 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

7 So Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before them all these words which the LORD commanded him.

8 Then all the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do." So Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD."

This is a conditional contract. There is an offer--" 'you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' "

There is a contractual obligation for the Children of Israel (COI)--" 'Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant,' "

The mutual promises of the parties are consideration for the agreement.

The contracting parties are Yahweh and the COI.

There is an acceptance--"Then all the people answered together and said, 'All that the LORD has spoken we will do.' "

Dave

[David_McQueen]

Ok so Old Covenant

Parties: God, Children of Israel

Context: Mutual

Conditions: Obey my voice and my covenant

I am still looking for clarity as to the terms of that covenant that Israel agreed to. Was it all of the Mosaic Law including the commandments?

[Robert]

The law means the 1st five books of the OT.

Here's more interplay bewteen Old and New:

• OC:

  Gal 3:10 All who rely on the works of the law [the terms of the OC] are under a curse, [why?] for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

  NC:

  11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The just by faith shall live.”

  OC:

  12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will by them live.”

  NC:

  13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

  15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

  [Abraham was under the NC. The OC had not yet been established. So really Abraham was under the covenant of grace.]

  18 For if the inheritance [Heaven, which Canaan was a type] depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

  19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

  21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God [made to Abraham]? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

  23 Before the faith came [Jesus], we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until the faith [Jesus] should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge of us until Christ so that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that the faith has come [Jesus], we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

[David Koot]

I am still looking for clarity as to the terms of that covenant that Israel agreed to. Was it all of the Mosaic Law including the commandments?

According to the terms of the covenant as stated, what God asked for was to obey His voice and keep His covenant. No specifics were given. The COI responded, 'Al that the Lord has said, we will do.' Hmmm . . . a broad response, sight unseen, 'a pig in a poke'

Later in Exodus, the Ten Commandments are dscribed as the terms of the covenant. This would appear to corroborate the fact that God spoke and wrote with His own finger, only the Ten Commandments.

The ceremonial and civil laws all pertain to either procedures in case of breaking one of the TC, or their application to civil law.

On the other hand, God includes provisions from the civil law, when He mentions the TC. He mixes them together.

What do you think, David?

[David_McQueen]

I believe the old covenant terms start from Exodus 19 and go all the way into Deutoronomy. Including the commandments as well as the civil and ceremonnial laws.

The interesting thing about this to me is that Israel agreed to this covenant before even knowing the exact terms.

[David Koot]

I believe the old covenant terms start from Exodus 19 and go all the way into Deutoronomy. Including the commandments as well as the civil and ceremonnial laws.

[David_McQueen]

The interesting thing about this old covenant is that many suggest that salvation was through works. I don't see this here, as I have always believed salvation was still by grace through faith (Hebrews 11).

Your thoughts on the concept of salvation under the old covenant?

[Gerr]

I believe the old covenant terms start from Exodus 19 and go all the way into Deutoronomy. Including the commandments as well as the civil and ceremonnial laws.

I tend to agree with you, that everything in the Law, i.e. in the 5 books of Moses were included in the terms of the Covenant, of which the 10c were the principles upon which all of them were founded on. Years later, part of the reasons given for the captivity was their refusal to give rest (Sabbaths) to the land, and their refusal to let go of their Heb slaves every 7th yr, and not allowing properties that are sold to revert back to their original owners on the yr of Jubilee.

Quote:

The interesting thing about this to me is that Israel agreed to this covenant before even knowing the exact terms.

Let me ask you. Put yourself in their place. You & your ancestors have been slaves for several generations. Here comes a God who, by a demonstration of miraculous powers delivers you from slavery with the plunder of the Egyptians no less, and He wants to make you His special people & wants to be your God, promises to take you to a land of liberty, of milk & honey, would you have refused?

Gerry

[Gerr]

I'm not David, but let me give you my own thoughts. Salvation was by grace thru faith in the OC no less than under the NC, and you already cited Heb 11 to show that all the faith heroes of the OT were saved by grace through faith alone.

Gerry

[David Koot]

The interesting thing about this old covenant is that many suggest that salvation was through works. I don't see this here, as I have always believed salvation was still by grace through faith (Hebrews 11).

Your thoughts on the concept of salvation under the old covenant?

I agree with you completely. They looked forward to Christ's death, and had the sacrificial system with illustrated the plan of salvation. We look back to Christ's death, and to His sacrifice once-for-all. As for the old covenant, I read that as pertaining to the Jews' special status, not to their salvation.

[Robert]

As for the old covenant, I read that as pertaining to the Jews' special status, not to their salvation.

Then you need to re-read Paul. Mankind is born "under law" and is hopelessly doomed to the 2nd death. The terms of that law are obey and live, disobey and die. Hence mankind needed to be delivered from under law. This Christ did by assuming our life under the curse. We need to accept this by faith.

As a nation the Jews knowingly entered the OC. You see we are legalists by nature. We are proud by birth...we have a high opinion of ourselves so we automatically think, "Give me your rules and I'll keep them and in return You owe me heaven."

Didn't God know the Jews couldn't keep the law? Yes! Then why did He enter this OC agreement? They didn't know! It was to open their eyes, but instead that got caught up self-righteousness (pretending to be good).

I came into this church making all sorts of promises to God. I'll be good and in return You owe me heaven. It didn't work. Didn't God know I couldn't meet up to the law's demands? Yes, but I was a stupid, ignorant, moron legalist who didn't have a clue. Well, I learned....That's why God made the Old Covenant.

Now, under grace, I get to grow. And all the while I am missing the mark, but I am not condemned for falling short. Why? I am no longer "under law" - the OC. No longer does the law say to me, "Obey and live"!" Why? As far as it is concerned I died "in Christ".

Yes...as I mature I am to consider myself dead to sin and alive to God. Hence I die daily. If I were dead to my nature I wouldn't have to die to it daily. I would be above living for the flesh, but the fact is it still gets me for it is a deceiver.

My two cents,

Rob

[Gerr]

If the OC was only for Israel's status as a nation and not for salvation, is the NC just for status then and not for salvation?

Gerry

[Ted Oplinger]

I see no difference pre-Cross vs. post-Cross, in the Biblical mechanism God put in place for man's salvation: an act of Creation and the indwelling of God, to bring into existence a righteous new person wherein God works His power, that this person may will and do of God's good pleasure.

Every person ever conceived and born, was conceived and born under Law. This was, and is, true for all mankind, so that no one may lay claim to eternal life through their own strength and works.

What gives the OT testimony a bad rap is that Israel did not approach God as true children of faith, but as bond-slaves given a do-list of rules.

God put enough references to true faith in the 5 books of Law, that Israel as a nation should have gotten the message. Hebrews 11 gives us evidence many did.

Quote:

If the OC was only for Israel's status as a nation and not for salvation, is the NC just for status then and not for salvation?

If God is consistent...then this is a valid question! The church...the status symbol for spiritual Israel...

What would that make the Remnant, then?

[Robert]

Every person ever conceived and born, was conceived and born under Law.

And we had better not stay there. Why?

• Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. [in what way?] 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Clearly to be under law means one must obey to be justified. Sinning while under law brings judgment and condemnation.

[cricket]

Love is the law.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Clearly to be under law means one must obey to be justified. Sinning while under law brings judgment and condemnation.

Question 1. Are heavenly angels under law?

2. Does willful/deliberate sinning by a believer not bring

condemnation?

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

Clearly to be under law means one must obey to be justified. Sinning while under law brings judgment and condemnation.

Question 1. Are heavenly angels under law?

2. Does willful/deliberate sinning by a believer not bring

condemnation?

Gerry

1] Yes

2] It hardens the heart and eventually brings condemnation.

Gerry, let's not get into it....You and I agreed and I would like to keep it friendly. You agreed we aren't measuring up and God accepts our efforts as men's best service. I agree....I'm arguing with the others, not you. And, BTW, you are off my legalist list if that means anything to you!

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted_Oplinger

Every person ever conceived and born, was conceived and born under Law.

And we had better not stay there. Why?

• Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. [in what way?] 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Clearly to be under law means one must obey to be justified. Sinning while under law brings judgment and condemnation.

Hmmmmm....

Then Galatians 4:4,5 says of Christ..."But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

So...Jesus needed to obey the Law to be justified with His Father?

Interesting thought...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And we had better not stay there. Why?

• Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. [in what way?'] 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Clearly to be under law means one must obey to be justified. Sinning while under law brings judgment and condemnation.

Hmmmmm....

Then Galatians 4:4,5 says of Christ..."But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

So...Jesus needed to obey the Law to be justified with His Father?

Interesting thought...

I didn't mention Christ. Paul's context is the human race, but since you brought Galatians up I'll be more than happy to respond!

Let me quote the meat of your reference: "God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law...."

First who is Christ?

1] The Son of God, one of three of the Godhead. Hence Jesus is God.

2] But He became what He was not by native right, namely "the word was MADE FLESH." Hence He became the Son of man.

As the Son of man He did two things:

1] He obeyed God's law perfectly; therefore He justified the human race by His doing....

2] He also met the justice of the law because the minute He joined His deity to our humanity under the curse, that second His assumed humanity (our corporate life) came under condemnation.

Even though Christ as man lived a perfect life, the humanity He assumed from Mary came under the curse the moment the Holy Spirit combined His deity with our fallen humanity. Hence we are born sinners by birth without outwardly sinning even once.

So Christ legally answered the OC demands:

A] Obey and live [the positive demands of the law]

B] Disobey and die [the justice of the law]

[Ted Oplinger]

So, He obeyed the Law perfectly...by what mechanism/drive?

Something available only to Him, because He was the Word made flesh?

Or is it something that has always been available to the human race, yet ignored in favor a 1)works or 2)works+faith or 3)grace an out for natural flesh being unable to render perfect obedience (pick any choice, the result is the same)?

[Robert]

Something available only to Him, because He was the Word made flesh?

The moment our humanity (from Mary) was united to Christ's divine life, that moment our humanity became spiritually alive. Hence Christ was born with a human life fully under the control of the spirit. Jesus, as man, never experienced sin. Yes, He knew its lusts, it's depravity through temptation, but He never new its addictiveness because He was and is without sin. He never, not even in thought, said yes to the flesh.

Now you and I were born in sin and we were by nature children of wrath. We were born without the Spirit. Hence everything we did was based on "self". When we received Christ by faith a change began in our character (mindset) that will continue (with all its ups and downs) until the grave.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted_Oplinger

Something available only to Him, because He was the Word made flesh?

The moment our humanity (from Mary) was united to Christ's divine life, that moment our humanity became spiritually alive. Hence Christ was born with a human life fully under the control of the spirit. Jesus, as man, never experienced sin. Yes, He knew its lusts, it's depravity through temptation, but He never new its addictiveness because He was and is without sin. He never, not even in thought, said yes to the flesh.

Now you and I were born in sin and we were by nature children of wrath. We were born without the Spirit. Hence everything we did was based on "self". When we received Christ by faith a change began in our character (mindset) that will continue (with all its ups and downs) until the grave.

Soooo...am I correct in deducing from your post that one should hopelessly think that God cannot Create new life within a sinner, a union of the human with the Divine, which does not say yes to the addictions of the flesh because it is powered by the very presence of God? [no flames here, Robert - just an up-front question]

That the best we can hope for is simply a change in mind and attitude wherein there may or may not be victory now in the life over sin and its addictive power in the flesh?

Is there a difference here between what you've posited, and the thought currently in vogue in many ares of Christendom, that we are saved in our sin rather than from sin (contrary to the Gospel's saving from, rather than in sin)?

Let's see if we can sort this out a bit...

You say that Christ never knew sin's addictive power...I tend to think He has felt that power in every human He died to redeem.

To be fair, let me state where I'm going in my thought process here: I'm of the opinion that the "Old Covenant" works/Law perspectives are greatly distorted by Israel's supreme unbelief (as noted in Hebrews 4), trying to make the Gospel a Law-keeping transaction. Admitting to to flesh's inability to keep the Law is but the very first step in Redemption...and I posit that we can't remain on that point for the rest of our lives.

Let's see where this goes, Robert...