If the Bible is the Word of the Creator ....

[cricket]

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The scientific method (which was invented, by the way, by creationists who believed that experimental results should be repeatable because there is a Creator who maintains His creation) should be used as an important tool in the inquiry into truth, but should not be used as an excuse to disregard the testimony of the Creator, whose very Word creates reality.

I seek evidence to link the creator with the one who is spoken of as the "Creator" in the Bible. Not seeking to disregard the Biblical account, but rather seeking to regard it.

[D. Allan]

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Since reality includes the spiritual, it must be included in true science.

Ron, it is interesting that the guy i quote below includes science in religion, not the other way 'round.

"A religious mind is free of all authority. And it is extremely difficult to be free from authority - not only the authority imposed by another but also the authority of the experience that one has gathered, which is of the past, which is tradition. And the religious mind has no beliefs; it has no dogmas; it moves from fact to fact, and therefore the religious mind is the scientific mind. But the scientific mind is not the religious mind. The religious mind includes the scientific mind, but the mind that is trained in the knowledge of science is not a religious mind." - J. Krishnamurti

[Ron Lambert]

In other words, D. Allen, one circle is bigger than the other, and includes the other (the religious mind includes the scientific mind). However, still using the same metaphor, the scientific mind must include part of the religious mind, since it is in it. It just does not include all of the religious mind. So the scientific mind depends upon the religious mind, even if this is not acknowledged. This seems perfectly illustrated in the fact that the mind that limits itself to strict naturalistic science makes an article of faith out of the scientific method, yet never acknowledges that the scientific method comes from the religious mind. Even though this should be apparent from the simple facts of history, that the scientific method was devised centuries before evolution gained any foothold, when all scientists were creationists.

I must note that the second sentence in your quote from J. Krishnamurti seems a little puzzling, and the third sentence seems to contradict the standard definition of a religious mind. The religious mind does accept the authority of the Creator, and many with a religious mind accord to the Bible the authority of being inspired by the Creator. Thus a part of scientific inquiry must include the effort to rightly understand what the Bible testimony is.

[D. Allan]

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So the scientific mind depends upon the religious mind, even if this is not acknowledged. This seems perfectly illustrated in the fact that the mind that limits itself to strict naturalistic science makes an article of faith out of the scientific method, yet never acknowledges that the scientific method comes from the religious mind.

The religious mind has a broader overview of all-things, wouldn't your say? But although it includes science in this over-view, it doesn't necessasarily understand all the details of science. It just puts it in its proper place. For instance, I don't understand much about Einsteins theory of relativity. Or Heisenburgs principle of indeterminicy!. Mathematicians have "imaginary" numbers!! It is beyond me. The religious mind, however, still can appreciate these scientific theorys and findings as part of the awesome manifestions of God. Scientists themselves are awed, because mathematics goes hand in hand with physics. They admit that they just don't understand why.

I'm not sure what the Krishnmurti means with respect to true religion being free of authority, and dogma. One set of words can mean so many different things at the same time. I think he may be saying that the truly religious persons are free of external authority, because they are at one with the internal authority - at one with the ONE who dwells in their hearts. His will has become theirs. They do not feel coerced - but the good and true flows from within their hearts. After all, if you do good and don't really want to - what meaning has it for your religious life. It makes it worse; for you make your self into a hypocrite. I think it is like the freedom Christ gives us when we fall in love with Him.... Then all our religious experience issues from our hearts... not from a sense of obligation... to external authority...For now He lives within us.

[Ron Lambert]

D. Allen, I would not say that the religious person derives his authority from inside himself. It is the wicked whose god is within them (see Phil. 3:18); "But our God is in the heavens" (Psalms 115:3). The true faith has an objective basis that transcends anything subjective and earthly.

I do agree with you that for the true believer, faith in God transforms the soul from within, changing the heart as well as the outward conduct.

[D. Allan]

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I do agree with you that for the true believer, faith in God transforms the soul from within, changing the heart as well as the outward conduct.

And if the outward conduct does not come from the heart (before it is changed), it must be driven by an external authority. If it is not from the heart, what good is it. Didn't God say that the Israelites served Him with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him.

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It is the wicked whose god is within them (see Phil. 3:18);

Phil. 3:18 didn't seem to apply (to me, mentions enemies of the cross of Christ), but what about John 14:20:

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

and Gal. 2:20, "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."

Christ can live in us and be our internal authority. I would say that a person can derive his authority from inside himself - but it is not his own - it is Christ's.

[Beryl]

Sure -- but truth is truth at all times. The Holy Spirit, Who is really the author of Scripture, will never contradict what He has already said -- but will enlighten minds who are open to an expansion of the truth that is already revealed.

Beryl

[Ron Lambert]

D. Allen, sorry, I meant the next verse, Phil. 3:19, which talks of people whose god is their belly. Some translations say appetites. This is the danger of looking inward for guidence--our own appetites and impulses may do the talking. Notice how this is contrasted in verse 20 by the affirmation: "For our conversation is in Heaven...."

[D. Allan]

Thanks, Ron, for clarifing that verse. I thought maybe you were hinting that I'm an enemy of Christ!

I hope we all can tell the difference between our appetites and the inward authority of Christ, don't you? After all the only way we can have that inward presence is to surrender all of our self-serving ego. Die, as Jesus put it. I know it is very difficult to do that 24/7.

[D. Allan]

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Sure -- but truth is truth at all times. The Holy Spirit, Who is really the author of Scripture, will never contradict what He has already said -- but will enlighten minds who are open to an expansion of the truth that is already revealed.

I haven't examined the concept of "present truth." So I'm not sure if God might have different truths for different occasions. I know that in some places the Bible appears to contradict itself. (see the book Inspriation by Alden Thompson,Review and Herald Pub. Assn.) So we need to look beyond the apparent contradiction to find the real subject matter in those cases.

Your last statement cannot be argued with. I'm open. So I will venture to say the Holy Spirit is the greater quide than the Bible since He inspired those who wrote it and also can expand on its truths. Probably His greatest work for most of us is opening our hearts and confirming truths we find in scriptures, or helping us to understand and apply them to our lives. Of course He has many more functions than those.

[Ron Lambert]

D. Allan, you said: "I hope we all can tell the difference between our appetites and the inward authority of Christ, don't you?"

We can hope--but this text comes to mind: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings." (Jeremiah 17:9, 10)

[D. Allan]

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The heart is deceitful above all things.

hmm... yes, it is. It needs to be surrendered. God says, " I will give you a new heart."

[LifeHiscost]

hmm... yes, it is. It needs to be surrendered. God says, " I will give you a new heart."

Praise God!

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJV

" to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Colossians 1:27 ASV

Regards!!

[D. Allan]

LifeHisCost, you asked, why don't Christians read the Bible as their best quide to life.

It doesn't seem that the Bible is enough. Consider Wycliffe who translated it into the common-folks english from latin. The clergy quoted the Bible in condemning him. In making the scriptures available to lay-men and women, he was "casting pearls before swine." !!

The priests hated Wycliffe so much that after he died of an illness they condemned him to be burned posthumusly. His bones were dug up, burned and scattered on the "Swift" river.

Now, those priests, read the Bible but it didn't seem to quide them rightly, in my opinion, although they belived it gave them the authority they wanted. Evidently, something more is needed.

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHisCost, you asked, why don't Christians read the Bible as their best quide to life.

It doesn't seem that the Bible is enough.

Now, those priests, read the Bible but it didn't seem to quide them rightly, in my opinion, although they belived it gave them the authority they wanted. Evidently, something more is needed.

I'm guessing the question was somewhat of a rhetorical question, more or less wishful thinking for those who consider themselves Christians but have no sense of what a disciple of Christ is asked to do as a follower of His.

While it is true the religious leaders of Christ's day, as well as Wycliffs day, revealed themselves in opposition to the plan of salvation, they could hardly be seen as disciples of Christ or loyal to God.

I would suggest the failure to read instructions from God comes as a result of numerous reasons. However some are perhaps more outstanding than others.

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." Isaiah 59:2 KJV

"And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself."

Genesis 3:10 ASV

"There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear, because fear hath punishment; and he that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18 ASV

"If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen."

1 John 4:20 ASV

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. " Matthew 7:22-24 ASV

"And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ." John 17:3 ASV