APNorth Korea says it conducts nuke test

[Naomi]

APNorth Korea says it conducts nuke test

AP - 27 minutes ago

SEOUL, South Korea - North Korea faced a barrage of global condemnation and calls for harsh sanctions Monday after it announced that it had set off an atomic weapon underground, a test that thrusts the secretive communist state into the elite club of nuclear-armed nations. The U.N. Security Council scheduled a meeting for today, a U.S. official said. And Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe and President Bush agreed during a telephone call today that the U.N. Security Council must take "decisive action" against North Korea.

[Naomi]

We have an evangelistic team in Korea at this time. Some dear friends are there, please pray for their safety, and the safety of all citizens of that part of the world.

Naomi

[Dr. Shane]

Has this been confirmed yet?

North Korea claims they developed the weapon to protect themselves from the US. So if that is true (which I don't believe) they won't use it unless the US attacks them.

However what is more likely is that they developed the weapon to sell to other countries and terrorist groups. They are already under strict sanctions. The next action that can be taken is a naval blockade and attempt to slow down air traffic in and out of the country.

[Stan]

i rather doubt that it was done.. as no radiation trace so far..

They are saying that, IMHO, because another country has threatened them with Nuclear weapons.. time will tell...

[Planey]

Seismic evidence lends credence to the claim.

[Stan]

They have the evidence? Or are you making a statement that it will?

[Planey]

From Reuters

Quote:

N.Korea nuke test relatively small-scientists

Mon 9 Oct 2006 6:30 AM ET

By Michael Perry

SYDNEY, Oct 9 (Reuters) - North Korea's nuclear test on Monday might have been a "mini-nuke" explosion possibly as low as one kiloton, comparable to some small tests by India and Pakistan in 1998, scientists said on Monday.

The U.S. Geological Survey said it had detected a 4.2 magnitude quake in North Korea at 10:35 local time (0135 GMT) on Monday, confirming a similar report from South Korea.

Gary Gibson, senior seismologist at Australia's Seismology Research Centre, said a 4.2 magnitude quake would be the result of a one kiloton explosion.

"It depends on how the thing is set off. There is not a perfect correlation between magnitude and the yield and depends to some extent on the rock type they set it off in," he said.

"It is a relatively small nuclear test."

[bevin]

Quote:

So if that is true (which I don't believe) they won't use it unless the US attacks them.

The history of the Korean penisula is truely sad.

Why wouldn't the USA attack them? We have already been at war there once. McArthur publically wanted to nuke them. We have directly attacked Viet-Nam, Granada, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and indirectly attacked many other countries. Bush has threatened to attack Iran and North Korea. We labelled them third on "the axis of evil" list and then attacked the first two on the list. Bush undid the progress on unification with South Korea that was happening under the Clinton administration.

Of course we would attack them. Maybe, with nukes in their arsenal, we might be forced to think twice about trying to push into their country with our vast technical supremacy.

When the USA goes charging around the world with high-tech trying to force our will on others, we must expect those other countries to resort to cheap big-bang-for-the-buck weapons.

The Bush administration's political incompetence is going to be the direct cause of the spread of nuclear weapons into many countries.

/Bevin

[Bravus]

Whatever happens from here on out, one more country joined the nuclear club on Bush's watch.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Why wouldn't the USA attack them?

The answer is quite clear. Because we haven't done it yet. If the USA was going to attack North Korea, it would have already done so.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Whatever happens from here on out, one more country joined the nuclear club on Bush's watch.

What was Bush suppose to do? Remember they got the nuclear fuel for this bomb from the Clinton Administration. Last night I watched Hannity and Combs and the best Combs could do was "maybe". He kept saying "If" Bush had done this or that "maybe" North Korea wouldn't have developed the bomb. Yet it all comes back to the Agreed Framework in which Clinton gave North Korea some lightwater reactors and North Korea was able to take the fuel out of those reactors, enrich it and make a bomb. Those that oppose Bush cannot get away from that.

Both Bush and Clinton made mistakes. It is really time for both sides to stop with the finger-pointing rhetoric. We have no reason to doubt the intentions of either Bush or Clinton. They were both doing what they felt was the best way to handle a fragile situation. If Clinton hadn't given them the LWRs they would have likely gotten the fuel from another source eventually.

Now the world has to decide what to do. That may mean putting nuclear missles in South Korea and Japan and figuring out how to prevent North Korea from selling nuclear bombs to other countries and terrorists.

[Neil D]

Winsconsin Project- Chronilogical report of N. Korea and nuclear weapons program

North Korea Nuclear/Missile Chronology - 1962-2000

The Risk Report

Volume 6 Number 6 (November-December 2000)

1962: North Korea sets up an atomic energy research center with Soviet help.

1964: Chinese help prospect for uranium.

1967: North Korea starts up small Soviet-supplied reactor.

1969-70: Soviet Union sends FROG-5 and FROG-7A missiles to North Korea.

1974: North Korea joins IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency).

1975: North Korea produces first plutonium -- a few grams.

1976: In return for military aid during the 1973 Middle East war, Egypt sends Soviet Scud-B missiles to North Korea.

1977: North Korea agrees to international inspection of Soviet-supplied equipment.

1977: Kang Song-San, a high party official, visits China's Lop Nur nuclear test site.

1979: Starts to build 30-megawatt thermal reactor that can produce enough plutonium for one bomb a year.

1983: A terrorist bomb linked to North Korea kills four South Korean cabinet members in Rangoon.

1984: North Korea successfully tests its first reverse-engineered Scud-B missile.

1984: An Iranian businessman and a Soviet emigre are indicted in New York for conspiring to smuggle U.S. missile guidance components to North Korea.

1985: Iran agrees to finance the development of North Korean Scud missiles in exchange for Scud-B technology and an option to buy the missiles when they become available.

1985: Signs the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT), promising not to produce a bomb and to open all nuclear sites to inspection. In return, Soviets promise North Korea several large power reactors.

1985: Starts to build a 200-Mwt. reactor that can produce enough plutonium for 7 to 10 bombs a year.

1985: Also starts to build large plant to process plutonium into weapon-ready form.

1986: Begins to produce plutonium in 30-Mwt. reactor.

1987: Misses the first 18-month deadline for the beginning of international inspections. Inspectors grant 18-month extension.

1987: North Korean agents bomb a South Korean airliner with 115 passengers to retaliate for being barred from Seoul Olympics.

1987: Iran and North Korea sign a $500 million arms deal that includes the purchase of 90 to 100 Scud-Bs by Tehran.

1987-88: North Korea delivers approximately 100 Scud-B missiles to Iran.

1988: U.S. puts North Korea on its list of nations supporting terrorism.

1988: Misses second deadline for beginning international inspections, and demands "legal assurances" that U.S. won't threaten it with nuclear weapons.

1989: Continues to refuse nuclear inspections.

1989: Secretly unloads, according to CIA (Central Intelligence Agency), enough plutonium-bearing fuel to make one or two nuclear bombs.

1989: Begins to process plutonium into nuclear-ready form.

1989: Starts to build 800-Mwt. reactor that can produce plutonium for 30 to 40 bombs a year.

1989: Proposes talks with South Korea on denuclearizing the peninsula.

1989: Two Japanese companies reportedly ship spectrum analyzers to North Korea, which can be used to improve missile accuracy.

1990: Threatens to drop out of the nuclear nonproliferation treaty unless U.S. removes all nuclear weapons from the peninsula.

1990: U.S. fines German firm Degussa for illegally supplying U.S.-origin reactor material to North Korea.

1990: Breaks off talks with inspectors. Continues to refuse inspection.

1990: Tries to buy electronic components for bomb triggers from U.S. company.

1990: 70 to 80 high-explosive tests in North Korea of bomb components are reported by South Korean press.

1990: Tests large plutonium processing plant, showing it is operational.

1990: Starts up new plant to process uranium for reactor fuel.

1990: Continues to produce plutonium and process it into weapon-ready form.

1990: Successfully tests a Scud-C missile, hitting targets off North Korea's eastern coast from a base in the Kangwon Province; Iran reportedly tests what U.S. intelligence identifies as a North Korean version of the Scud-C.

1991: Refuses Japan's offer of aid and recognition in exchange for inspections.

1991: South Korea's Defense Minister states that South Korea may attack construction of the Yongbyon (50-Mwt.) reactor.

1991: Demands that South Korea give up U.S. nuclear protection.

1991: U.S. begins to remove nuclear weapons from South Korea.

1991: Continues to produce plutonium and process it into weapon-ready form.

1991: Sells nuclear-capable Scud-C missiles to Syria and Iran.

1991: North and South Korea agree to denuclearize the peninsula and not to produce, test, receive, deploy or possess nuclear weapon fuel or weapons, or the means to make it.Continues to refuse inspections.

1991-92: North Korea delivers an estimated 24 Scud-Cs and 20 mobile launchers to Syria, and ships additional Scuds to Syria through Iran.

1992: Promises to allow inspections of entire nuclear program by IAEA, as agreed in 1985.

1992: U.S. intelligence observes a truck hauling things away from a plutonium extraction plant.

1992: To show good will, U.S. and South Korea cancel military exercises.

1992: North Korea declares to IAEA that it has seven sites and about 90 grams of plutonium.

1992: In 5 trips, lets inspectors visit 7 declared sites.

1992: Buries, according to U.S. intelligence, first floor of two-story building, believed to contain waste from plutonium extraction.

1992: Continues to produce plutonium and process it into weapon-ready form.

1992: IAEA concludes there are inconsistencies in North Korea's nuclear declaration, and requests access to two additional sites at Yongbyon; North Korea denies access to one site and only visual access to the other.

1992: Russia reportedly prevents some 60 Russian rocket scientists from going to North Korea.

1992: The U.S. Department of State sanctions entities in North Korea, Iran and Syria for "missile technology proliferation activities."

1993: Inspectors ask to see two undeclared sites, on suspicion that secret plutonium processing will be revealed, and allow one month for compliance. U.S. aerial photographs and IAEA chemical analysis data confirm existence of a nuclear waste dump and inconsistencies in N. Korea's declaration of nuclear materials.

1993: Bars inspectors from undeclared sites and says that it will drop out of nonproliferation treaty. Inspectors declare North Korea has violated its obligations to open undeclared sites.

1993: Says U.N. sanctions would amount to a declaration of war.

1993: "Suspends" withdrawal from nonproliferation treaty but continues to bar inspectors from full inspection.

1993: President Clinton warns North Korea that using nuclear weapons against South Korea "will be the end of their country as they know it."

1993: Restricts inspectors to working at night by flashlight. A North Korean defector describes underground missile launch pads.

1993: Repudiates the nonproliferation treaty; breaks off talks with inspectors. Inspectors say their data is "damaged" and "deteriorating."

1993: Breaks off denuclearization talks with South Korea. President Clinton warns North Korea that it "cannot be allowed to develop a nuclear bomb," and that "any attack on South Korea is an attack on the United States."

1993: IAEA reports to UN that if IAEA inspectors are not permitted to revisit North Korea's nuclear facilities, they can no longer verify the IAEA/North Korea safeguards agreement.

1993: North Korean diplomat is expelled from Moscow for trying to hire Russian scientists.

1993: Offers to let inspectors into only 5 of 7 declared sites, barring them from the 30-Mwt. reactor, the plutonium processing plant and two undeclared sites. Inspectors say their cameras no longer work.

1993: U.S. intelligence says North Korea has a "better than even" chance of possessing one or two bombs.

1993: Manufactures fuel for its 200-Mwt. reactor.

1993: Continues to produce plutonium.

1993: North Korea successfully tests the Nodong missile to a range of about 500km.

1994: Agrees to one-time inspection of all seven declared sites, but balks at procedures.

1994: CIA Director says he believes North Korea may have produced one or two nuclear bombs.

1994: Agrees to inspection procedures but delays inspectors' visas and continues to bar inspectors from undeclared sites. Threatens to leave the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty if U.S. sends Patriot anti-missile batteries to South Korea.

1994: Inspectors find seals broken, are denied access to crucial equipment and cannot certify North Korean compliance.

1994: IAEA terminates inspections after North Korea bars inspectors from collecting samples at its plutonium reprocessing plant.

1994: U.S. cancels scheduled talks.

1994: IAEA announces again that it can no longer ensure that North Korea's nuclear materials were not being diverted for nonpeaceful purposes.

1994: North Korea begins removing spent fuel from the 5 Mwt. reactor, in "serious violation" of North Korea's safeguard agreement with IAEA. U.S. offers to hold high-level talks. IAEA reports that it is quickly losing ability to monitor past production of plutonium.

1994: IAEA tells UN Security Council that North Korea's recent removal of fuel rods makes it impossible to reconstruct the operating history of the reactor.

1994: IAEA exempts North Korea from technical assistance; North Korea reacts by quitting IAEA.

1994: U.S. announces it will pursue global economic sanctions against North Korea if North Korea does not allow IAEA inspectors to examine the spent fuel rods.

1994: U.S. builds up its troops in South Korea and announces it will begin consultations with other countries regarding sanctions.

1994: Former President Carter visits North Korea; Kim Il Sung offers to freeze North Korea's nuclear program in return for high-level talks between the U.S. and North Korea. U.S. offers to resume high-level talks and suspends efforts to sanction North Korea.

1994: U.S. begins negotiations with North Korea on freezing North Korea's nuclear program. Kim Il Sung dies; talks are suspended.

1994: U.S. and North Korea issue an "Agreed Statement,"under which North Korea will rejoin the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty in exchange for light-water reactors, interim energy supplies and normalization of political and economic relations.

1994: U.S. and North Korea conclude an "Agreed Framework," in which President Clinton promises to help arrange, finance and construct the light-water reactors and fund interim energy supplies.

1994: North Korea announces that it has halted construction on its two unfinished graphite-moderated reactors.

1994: Chinese President Jiang Zemin promises the U.S. that China will strongly support the U.S.-North Korea agreement.

1994: IAEA inspectors confirm North Korea has frozen its nuclear program and stopped construction on the unfinished reactors.

1994: U.S. helicopter strays over North Korea and is shot down; one pilot is killed, Bobby Hall is taken prisoner and released 13 days later.

1995: Russia sends a delegation to Pyongyang to persuade North Korea to use Russian atomic reactors.

1995: Secretary of State Warren Christopher estimates to Congress that U.S. share of the deal with North Korea would be $20-30 million per year over a decade or more.

1995: U.S., Japan and South Korea establish the KEDO consortium.

1995: KEDO announces it will provide North Korea with two South Korean-manufactured lightwater reactors.

1995: CIA Director John Deutch estimates that the Nodong-1 missile will be deployed by the end of 1996, and that North Korea is continuing missile research and work on nuclear, chemical and biological warheads.

1995: KEDO and North Korea reach an agreement on the supply of two light-water reactors, worth $4.5 billion, financed primarily by South Korea and Japan.

1995: According to comments by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), Iran has received four Scud TELs from North Korea.

1996: U.S. intelligence reportedly voices increased concern about North Korea's success in securing sensitive technology for its Nodong missile program.

1996: North Korea announces it will no longer respect the demilitarized zone and holds military exercises there for three days.

1996: A North Korean submarine, believed to be spying, runs aground off the coast of South Korea.

1996: North Korea announces it will withhold from the IAEA any new nuclear information until the light-water reactors are finished and operating, a period of 10 years or more.

1996: South Korea delays progress on the Agreed Framework in reaction to the submarine incident.

1996: North Korea reportedly obtains European-made unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

1996: China joins the UN Security Council in criticizing North Korea and expressing "serious concern" about the submarine incident.

1996: North Korea reportedly is set to test fire a Nodong-1 ballistic missile capable of reaching Japan.

1996: South Korea demands a formal apology from North Korea for the submarine incident.

1996: North Korea apologizes to South Korea for the September submarine incident, and promises to prevent the recurrence of similar incidents in the future.

1996: North Korea agrees to face-to-face talks with South Korea and the United States on the possibility of negotiating a formal end to the Korean War.

1996: The United States and North Korea begin bilateral talks on how to curb North Korea's missile exports and freeze its missile development.

1996: Taiwanese Customs officials reportedly seize 200 barrels (15 tons) of ammonium perchlorate on a North Korean freighter bound for Pakistan's SUPARCO (Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission).

1997: Top North Korean theoretician and close adviser to Kim Jong Il defects to South Korea.

April 1997: A South Korean newspaper publishes an essay written by a high-ranking North Korean defector, in which he implies that North Korea has nuclear weapons and the ability to use them against South Korea and Japan.

August 1997: Construction begins on two light-water nuclear reactors being built in North Korea as part of the 1994 Agreed Framework with the United States.

May 1998: Unhappy about the slow pace of activity under the Agreed Framework, it is reported that North Korea may reopen the nuclear reactor at Yongbyon.

June 1998: North Korea declares that it will continue to develop and export nuclear-capable missiles.

July 1998: The U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO) reports that North Korea is refusing to allow the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspectors full access to its nuclear sites.

July 1998: Negotiators from the Korean Energy Development Organization (KEDO), the consortium building the two light-water nuclear reactors in North Korea under the 1994 Agreed Framework, reach a tentative agreement on sharing the cost of the construction.

August 1998: U.S. intelligence reports that North Korea is building a large underground facility that may be either a nuclear reactor or reprocessing plant.

March 1999: A U.S. Department of Energy intelligence report claims that North Korea is working on uranium enrichment techniques.

May 1999: A team of American nuclear specialists arrives in North Korea to begin an inspection of what is suspected of being an underground nuclear weapons site at Kumchangri.

July 1999: A U.S. intelligence report claims that North Korea has between 25 and 30 kilograms of weapon-grade plutonium, enough to make several nuclear warheads.

January 2000: It is reported that the Congo may be supplying North Korea with uranium in return for military training of its government forces.

February 2000: Two loans totalling $4.2 billion are made available to the Korean Energy Development Organization (KEDO) to build two nuclear reactors in North Korea. Although the project is still short $400 million, preparatory work is moving ahead.

June 2000: In the wake of a historic summit between the leaders of North and South Korea, the Clinton administration formally implements steps to ease economic sanctions against North Korea.

October 2000: The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) assesses that North Korea has produced enough plutonium for at least one, and possibly two, nuclear weapons.

[Naomi]

in 2006: _____ , & we are shocked! Imagine that

Naomi

[bevin]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,405876,00.html?internalid=ACA

Quote:

Jan. 07, 2003

North Korea's nuclear initiative has exposed a crisis in the Bush Administration's Korea policy dating back to February of 2001, shortly after President Bush had taken office. Then-South Korean president Kim Dae Jung came to Washington six weeks after the Bush inauguration to urge the new administration to quickly resume the dialogue with North Korea launched by the Clinton Administration. Secretary of State Powell had said the new Administration would continue the Clinton policy, but when President Bush met President Kim, he put the kibosh on South Korea's hopes, warning that North Korea could not be trusted to keep its agreements. Bush's remarks were viewed as a slap-down of the South Korean president's "Sunshine" policy of engagement with the North, which infuriated Seoul and saw Pyongyang respond by chilling relations with the South.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/EK26Dg01.html

Quote:

Nov 26, 2003 : What is only too clear, unconscionable and alarming is that fully three years after George W Bush's election, and less than a year before he comes up for re-election, the US still does not have any discernible unified joined-up policy on North Korea whatever. The mixed messages outlined above are merely the latest in a long line, baffling and bemusing friend and foe alike.

This is an extraordinary dereliction of duty by the world's sole superpower over what remains one of the planet's most dangerous crises. Regardless of ideology, and granted that there are no good options, it is hard to imagine how North Korea could have been handled worse than it has been by the Bush administration. Under Bush, the US has failed either to formulate a North Korea policy, to speak with one voice (an astonishing indiscipline) or even, arguably, really to focus on Korea at all, obsessed and preoccupied as it is by West rather than East Asia. ...

But for now, three years in, we finally know what the Bush administration's North Korea policy is. It is a shambles, and a disgrace. We can only pray it will not be another disaster.

Their prayers were not answered.

http://hnn.us/articles/10400.html

Quote:

2-28-05

From the moment it took office, the Bush administration has followed an intentionally provocative policy toward the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) with the ultimate objective of achieving regime change in Pyongyang. Its first act was to terminate bilateral negotiations based on the argument that North Korea could not be trusted because it was not fulfilling its agreements, but without providing any evidence to support this claim. The United States also ended support for South Korea’s policy of seeking engagement with the DPRK that was promoting peace and stability on the peninsula.

Yes, the Bush administration has really screwed this up

/Bevin

[Bravus]

Yep, that's the answer to your question, Shane: the Bush administration's 'bullying in place of diplomacy' approach is deeply implicated in North Korea's decision to build these weapons and do this test.

As it happens, Donald Rumsfeld was also the director of a company that sold nuclear reactors to North Korea in 2000.

[Bravus]

Put yourself in North Korea's shoes for just a minute.

A 6'5", 250 pound guy with a long history of violence has publicly circulated a 'hit list' of his enemies, with only 3 names on it, and repeatedly threatened them. Then one of the other two people on the list is brutally attacked, and is on life support, fighting for his life. Don't you think you might buy a gun?

[Pockey]

Question, why does the Bush admin refuse a sit down with N. Korea?

[bevin]

Better question - why does NK want to talk to the USA?

Because the USA is using its leverage over SK and Japan and other countries to try to economically isolate and destroy NK. Granted the NK's are doing a great job of destroying themselves, but before Bush's incompetent administration got involved, the SK's and the NK's were beginning to make excellent progress towards long term reunification - not, maybe, in our generation, but a gradual process that was not too damaging to the current NK leadership.

Bush, in his stupidity, has forgotten the cause of WW-II - namely the West applying economic restrictions on Japan. It is simple semantics to argue "we are not going to attack NK, we are simply going to make sure that nobody will trade with them". That is as much an attack as bombing - and if someone did it to the USA, you can bet your bottom dollar Bush would use military might - oh, that's right, he already has - Iraq, where he was scared they would stop the Middle East selling us cheap oil.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Then-South Korean president Kim Dae Jung came to Washington six weeks after the Bush inauguration to urge the new administration to quickly resume the dialogue with North Korea launched by the Clinton Administration.

Which had been a failure. The "Then-South Korean president Kim Dae Jung" wanted the Bush Administration to continue with the failed Clinton Administration's policy.

Quote:

President Bush met President Kim, he put the kibosh on South Korea's hopes, warning that North Korea could not be trusted to keep its agreements.

And that was true. There are people in this world that cannot be trusted and thus diplomacy cannot be effective.

Quote:

Regardless of ideology, and granted that there are no good options, it is hard to imagine how North Korea could have been handled worse than it has been by the Bush administration.

Again, what was the Bush Administration to do? The Clinton policy was a failure - not because of Clinton but because North Korea couldn't be trusted. If Bush continued Clinton's failed policy that would only show him unable to learn from previous mistakes.

So, right or wrong, he insisted on six-party talks which meant there would be local preasure on North Korea to hold up any agreement they might come to.

Quote:

From the moment it took office, the Bush administration has followed an intentionally provocative policy toward the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea

The "intentionally provocative policy" was that of North Korea when they delibertly broke the agreement made with the Clinton Administration in 1994. To turn that around and somehow blame the Bush Administration is pure spin.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

A 6'5", 250 pound guy with a long history of violence has publicly circulated a 'hit list' of his enemies, with only 3 names on it

Let's not get the cart before the horse. North Korea had already broken its agreement with the Clinton Administration and resumed their nuclear program before they were labeled as part of the axis ov evil. They didn't resume their nuclear program because they were placed on the axis of evil. They were placed on the axis of evil because they had resumed their nuclear program.

[bevin]

Let's not let the Republican's get away with their blatant lies.

In what sense was the Clinton policy a failure?

It was being led, not backed, by both the South and North Korean's - Clinton was just helping them do what they wanted to do.

It was certainly opening up relationships - don't you remember the newspaper articles about Korean families split since the war by the demarcation line seeing each other for the first time in decades?

And when Bush overturned it, both the South Koreans AND the North Koreans were annoyed.

As the articles I pointed out said, the Bush administration has really blundered very badly here (as indeed they have in many other places also).

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

In what sense was the Clinton policy a failure?

North Korea continued its nuclear program in direct violation of the Agreed Framework almost before the ink had dried on the paper.

Quote:

don't you remember the newspaper articles about Korean families split since the war by the demarcation line seeing each other for the first time in decades?

Again, Bush didn't stop that. North Korea did. This is the kind of thinking that blames the girl wearing a mini-skirt for getting raped instead of the rapist. She deserved it! If she wouldn't have dressed so provocative the guy would have never raped her. It's Bush's fault, if he had done this and that North Korea would have never did what they did.

[Dr. Shane]

So much spin going on here I am getting dizzy.

[Neil D]

So much spin going on here I am getting dizzy.

This remark requires a "put up or shut up" reply. It is as offensive to whom it is directed to as it implys that someone doesn't know what they are talking about....

Shane, you don't like it when we tell you to put up or shut up...just like we don't like you implying that we don't know what we are talking about...

So, instead of agrivating the situation and insulting everyone who disagrees with you, why don't you explain why you think Bevin is wrong...

[Dr. Shane]

I wouldn't say "Bevin" is wrong. That is too personal. Bevin has an opinion but that opinion isn't Bevin. That is to say, Bevin, myself or anyone else are free to change their opinion. An opinion one holds shouldn't define who that person is. Idealogues, do however let their opinions define them but most people are not idealogues and I would not accuse anyone here at C/A of being an idealogue.

I have already "put-up". What we have is a nation that, for whatever reason, has nuclear ambitions. They had those nuclear ambitions way back when GW Bush was running a ball team. Now unless they really hated the Rangers, I don't see how Bush could have caused them to have nuclear ambitions.

We have a Clinton Administration policy that was full of good intentions, went to great lengths to solve the problem but failed. We then have a Bush Administration that decided not to continue the failed Clinton Administration policy and instead try multi-lateral talks but also failed. So we have two failed policies. I am not blaming Clinton. I am not blaming Bush. The policies of both failed. Both tried to solve the problem. That is the way I see it. To say it is either Bush's fault or Clinton's comes off as being SPIN to me. It is North Korea's fault. We didn't cause the problem and we didn't solve the problem either.