Border Fence

[Dr. Shane]

China Erects Fence Along N. Korea Border

Quote:

China has been building a massive barbed wire and concrete fence along parts of its border with North Korea in the most visible sign of Beijing's strained ties with its once-cozy communist neighbor.

Scores of soldiers have descended on farmland near the border-marking Yalu River to erect concrete barriers 8 to 15 feet tall and string barbed wire between them, farmers and visitors to the area said.

[Dr. Shane]

I was thinking, there is no way the US is going to do anything militarily unless South Korea wants us to. I am not talking about an invation. I mean just bombing or cruise missles. Any such attack will result on South Korea being attacked and their capital is within artilary range fron the border.

South Korea and China are the key players. It is no wonder Bush insisted on six-party talks. That only seems to make sense.

[bevin]

Quote:

South Korea and China are the key players. It is no wonder Bush insisted on six-party talks. That only seems to make sense.

I agree that those countries are very critical to what happens.

Why is the USA critical? Why does NK want to talk to us at all?

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

The most obvious reason is that the US has 30,000 troops on their southern border enforcing a cease-fire.

[bevin]

Ok, so if someone has a huge hi-tech nuclear-equipped military force threatening you, and if that someone has been publically telling you that you must do something, and if that someone is trying to get other people to do things to you, wouldn't you want to talk to them?

/Bevin

ps: Why do you think the US believes a 30,000 strong force can defend a border that long against a huge low-tech army?

[Dr. Shane]

Actually the 30,000 is not nearly enough.

OK, if I was the dictator of North Korea, what would I do?

I would enter into a treaty with China so they would protect me - simular to Tiwaian's relationship with the US. I may even see if I could get China to build bases along my southern border and station troops there which would reduce my miltary costs while stimuating the local economies in those areas. I would have the smallest military I could possible get by with (by relying on China as my cheif allie). I would try to invite forgien investment by Japan, New Zealand, Austraila and western Europe.

[Bravus]

On the original topic of the thread: what a pity that a fence could become the icon that represents this decade. Fences in Israel, fences in the US, fences in China. I would have hoped, when we saw the Berlin Wall fall, that that was the beginning of a trend away from walls and fences. But perhaps that was too optimistic.

[Dr. Shane]

Easy for an Austrailian to say

[Neil D]

Easy for an Austrailian to say

What's a fence for? To keep people out...? .....or to keep people in?

[Amelia]

Oz has a fence but its for animals not people.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

What's a fence for? To keep people out...? .....or to keep people in?

And that is the difference between the fences today and the Berlin Wall. The Berlin Wall was to keep East Germans from leaving. The modern fences are being built to stop illegal immirgrants (North Koreans, Palastinians, Mexicans, etc) from coming.

[Neil D]

Quote:

What's a fence for? To keep people out...? .....or to keep people in?

And that is the difference between the fences today and the Berlin Wall. The Berlin Wall was to keep East Germans from leaving. The modern fences are being built to stop illegal immirgrants (North Koreans, Palastinians, Mexicans, etc) from coming.

And that's why building a fence is a failed attempt at coercion and immigration. It's a bandaid policy that is not working and will never work...And it's wasting our tax payers moneys..The republicans who pushed it forward are stupid.

[Dr. Shane]

They never work...

[Neil D]

They never work...

Case in point....Thank you, Shane...

[Nan]

And our very long coast line is not easy to patrol - we have no land border with any country.

[Nan]

There is a very popular TV advertisement running here, for one of the broadband ISPs

Small boy working on school project in back of car: "Dad, why did they build the Great Wall of China?"

Dad, an older man, driving, after some consideration: "That was in the time of Emporer Nasi Goreng. It was to keep the rabbits out. Too many rabbits - in China.

Next scene - Son about to present his talk to his class

Closing credit - give your children the right information....

[bevin]

Quote:

OK, if I was the dictator of North Korea, what would I do?

I would enter into a treaty with China so they would protect me - simular to Tiwaian's relationship with the US. I may even see if I could get China to build bases along my southern border and station troops there which would reduce my miltary costs while stimuating the local economies in those areas. I would have the smallest military I could possible get by with (by relying on China as my cheif allie). I would try to invite forgien investment by Japan, New Zealand, Austraila and western Europe.

Kim Jong Il is the son of a war hero. His father led a guerrilla army against the Japanese during the occupation of the 1930's. The Koreans have seen their country invaded by foreigners, and their people ruthlessly treated. So they fear it again.

Clinton, while not liking the regime, understood that what was needed was a POLICY change, not a REGIME change. Bush, being stupid and arrogant, pushes for REGIME change - which of course gets no support from the current regime.

Especially when, according to Newsweek and reported in them, GWB referred to Kim as "a hateful 'pygmy' who behaved like a 'spoiled child at a dinner table'". It is known the the NK's heard these remarks and similar ones GWB has made, and as one of them asked "How can we deal with you when your leader doesn't show us the minimum of respect".

The Bush administration, and GWB himself, are undoubtably the most incompetent leadership the country has had since I came to the USA in 1982.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

Actually the Israel wall has dramatically decreased the number of suicide bombers in areas where it has been built.

The US/Mexican fence, where it has been built, has significantly reduced drug smuggling and human trafficking.

The great wall of China held off its enemies for the first 80 years until a Chinese traiter opened the door and let an enemy army come through.

Ancient Babylon fell not becuase its wall failed, but because someone left the gates to the river open which allowed the enemy to dry up the river and come in.

Ancient cities were fortified by walls not becuase the people were ignorant and stupid but becuase the walls protected the people.

Walls and fences, when maintained and manned, work. They always have. They always will.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Bush... pushes for REGIME change

While it is obvious that regime change is needed, I haven't seen much of a push by the Bush Administration for that. What I have seen is a push for six-party talks.

[Taylor]

Ha ha ha ..... Shane, Bevin and Neil....you three will NEVER see eye to eye on anything (well maybe Bevin and Neil will but not the three of you.). All three of you have had good points to make many times. Glad you are passionate about what you believe.

[Neil D]

Quote:

Walls and fences, when maintained and manned, work. They always have. They always will.

And in each example that you have given, while the intention was to keep the 'enemy' out, it allowed the leaders to manipulate the population with fear... in each generation....

And it is begining in the US...We fear the immigrant because he may deal with drugs and be a pathological criminal. It is important to maintain this fear, to wall us in...Whereas, while there are a few who are, the great majority are those who seek a better life, for themselves and thier familys and seek to work. And do so at a minimum wage for hard labor...

Do you think that these people desire to go thru the desert, to suffer the hardships of deprivation, with the Americans petroling the boarders, with thier guns, risking death and hardship, just so they can work in the farms, sleeping with other mexican people and being deprived from thier familys?

We have lost the perspective as to how to solve this problem...And in the process, we have increased the fear within our own borders. That's what we wanted all along...right?

[Dr. Shane]

Rational fear is a good thing. Rational fear causes us to turn on our headlights at night when we drive. Ratioal fear causes us to turn on our heater when it gets cold outside or to take an umbrella with us when rain is in the forecast. There is nothing wrong with rational fear.

Most illegal immirgrants are harmless but about 10% are criminals. So that means for every 100,000 that comes accross the border illegally, 10,000 are criminals. Most are also healthy but a small percentage are do have contegious diseases. When such large numbers are coming accross the boarder illegally, the small percentage translates into a real risk to public health concerns.

[Naomi]

Quote:

Most illegal immirgrants are harmless but about 10% are criminals. So that means for every 100,000 that comes accross the border illegally, 10,000 are criminals.

Shane, your stats may be correct, however I have seen many which indicate a much higher percentage which are criminals ... or perhaps it is just the same 10% going and returning.

[Dr. Shane]

Mine is just a conservative estimate. I don't know what the actual statistics are.

[Neil D]

Mine is just a conservative estimate. I don't know what the actual statistics are.

I don't think anyone does....And those stats that are out there are from who??? Fear managers for some apolitical group to encourage thier agenda???

I agree on one thing...Every single immigrant smuggled into our country comes to American to satisfy one need...survival.