Bush to sign law authorizing harsh interrogation

[Dr. Shane]

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It is the struggle of moderate people trying to have enough stuff for their children.

SPIN Alert!

The moderates trying to have enough stuff for their children are not the problem. The religious jihadists are the problem and they are motivated by religion - not a longing for an X-Box game system for their kids.

[bevin]

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The moderates trying to have enough stuff for their children are not the problem. The religious jihadists are the problem and they are motivated by religion - not a longing for an X-Box game system for their kids.

Apparently you have not been looking closely enough at the pictures behind the reporters.

In Palestine, in Iraq, in Afghanistan the parents are wanting

• not being shot at, kidnapped, missiled, or bombed
• clean water
• adequate nutrious food
• medical care

/Bevin

[Key Guy]

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There are extremist atheists, christians, muslims, hindus, and probably Wicca

Yes, but how many Christian, athiest, and hindu extremists are running aound killing innocents? How many are plotting to blow up malls, schools, etc? Your line of logic strays too far from the facts. Bottom line (again)... these nuts are trying to kill you. They want to kill YOU. What are you going to do about it, besides wanting to throw money at them?

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The Bush administration has made the following two huge errors

• They have cast the Palestine, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan politics as anti-American anti-Christian terrorism. Rubbish. It is not even a religious struggle. It is the struggle of moderate people trying to have enough stuff for their children.
• They have cast everyone who opposes their administration as extremists and terrorist. Rubbish. Their policies are screwing up the lives of moderate people, and those moderate people are trying to survive.

There are a handful of wealthy people, and a lot of people who are dirt poor. And we are backing the wealthy and repressing the poor.

/Bevin

First: Since when is it the fault of America that people can't have enough stuff for their children? We got rid of Saddam because he was outragiously suppressive on his own citizens and the thanks we get is more killing. They have a greater opportunity to give their children a decent future, but they are squirting that opportunity away. They wouldn't know how to recognize and appreciate freedom if it bit them in the tushie. We are pouring billions into their infrastructure to give them a better life and they refuse to rat out insurgents. If you tell me it's because they are afraid, then I say they need a dose of American courage injected into their blood somehow. We wrote the book on standing up to the foe.

Second: I tend to believe that America has more weenies now than ever. Thank God our soldiers are still brave. Thank God Bush still has focus. As long as our liberal friends continue to want peace through 'talking', we'll be at risk of losing any war against murdering religious extremists. How does one talk to a faction that is completely commited to killing him? You aren't going to change their minds except by making them bleed more than you. It boggles my mind that liberals don't get that amazingly simple fact of life.

Third: Explain to me how, if this is not religiously inspired, the extremists are going to become richer by killing Americans? If this terrorism thing is all about the money, then why aren't the idiots like the Taliban funneling the millions they raise for terrorism into enriching life for their families? How is it enriching the families and helping them to live a better, more wealthy life by training their kids to blow themselves up trying to kill more innocents?

Fourth: We are repressing the poor? Even if that were true, which it isn't, why aren't other dirt poor nations attacking the US like the muslim extremists? We are surrounded by dirt poor folks in countries everywhere. Some, not many, appreciate it. Name one other country that pours more money into helping the poor. Name one. Just one.

Last: If it wasn't a religious thing, why aren't orgs like ADRA doing anything of importance in Iraq, for example. They have a fabulous reputation of helping folks without politics or bias. Yet, they'd be killed just as quick (for the money of course).

[bevin]

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Yes, but how many Christian, athiest, and hindu extremists are running aound killing innocents?

Lots, actually. Have you checked out Africa recently? How about Burma? East Timor? Various Latin American countries.

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Fourth: We are repressing the poor? Even if that were true, which it isn't, why aren't other dirt poor nations attacking the US like the muslim extremists?

The USA has a long and dishonorable history of backing leaders that are good for us, regardless of what they are doing to the local people. Since the Middle East oil happens to be in Islamic countries, that is just the one we notice the most.

For some reason that I don't quite understand, the populace resents it when we support the regime who is killing them.

We did it in Russia. We did it in South America. We did it in Viet Nam. We did it in Iran. We did it in Iraq. We did it in Cuba. We did it in Cambodia. We did it in Somalia. And we are doing it in the Middle East.

/Bevin

[Bravus]

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Name one other country that pours more money into helping the poor. Name one. Just one.

We went through this here last year, so I'm not going to do it again, but the Scandinavian countries, particularly Norway and Denmark, give *far* more international aid per capita than the US. In fact, the US comes about 20th in the world in terms of international aid, so I guess I can name not 1, but 19 countries that pour more money into helping the poor.

Have a look at this chart, which includes both government and private giving:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930884.html

[Neil D]

Ok, let's take a look at the comment that started our history lesson:

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undermining [clarifying the thought] the very foundations of this nation's freedoms....

So Bush is undermining the terrorist foundation of this nation's freedoms? The freedoms that came about through acts of terrorism like guerilla war tactics not used in Europe at the time?

And don't you put words into my mouth that were never there, Shane.

At the begining of our existance, the 'colonies' were not an organized state, but rather a loose collection of english "misfits", many were expelled from England, who were feeling the religious/political oppression of England. After a time, they became an economic force, and doing well, and the English were resenting it. The English started oppressing the colonists, to quash thier independant spirit. The english, among other things, began thier oppression by forcing the colonists to house the milita, without compensation. They seized property when it suited them, often under the disguise of trumpet up charges. The pro-English forces in the colonies, often attempted to silience the free thinking of the pro-colonists, thru the charges of assembling and foamenting dissent/treason. And when the colonist attempted to redress these greivances, the English sent them home without allowing them to use thier voice.

The point here is that at the time of these incidents were done, there were NO Americans, only colonists. When the bill of rights were made, sure, there were Americans, but the reason for these rights came from experiences when they were NOT americans. These new americans wanted these rights FOR ALL PEOPLE, not just for americans because thier experiences happened when THEY WERE NOT AMERICAN. They were concidered foreign subjects of the King of England.

That is why, Shane and you too KeyGuy, when you all say that these new laws that Bush is putting forth is for non-Americans, they are stricking at our founding fathers thought and experience. You are setting us up to be like the King of England....oppressive, domineering...much like the Beast of Revelation...

That is why I can not support your philosphies...It is subletly evil, such that even the very elect can not tell it apart from truth and love. That is why it is couched in such things as Patriotism, and national security...whose philosophy is in the exclusive domain of selfishness, no matter what the PR...

[Tom Wetmore]

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Yeah, undermine the very foundations of this nation's freedoms....

Sounds like some folks need a history lesson. Should we start with the Wilson Administration or the FD Roosevelt Administration?

Well Shane you are quite right, a history lesson is indeed in order... And you reference very apt examples that should instruct us on the alarming folly of what Bush has just done to us...

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President Woodrow Wilson insisted that the Espionage Act was necessary to save American lives, only to watch him use that Act to prosecute 2,000 Americans, especially those he disparaged as “Hyphenated Americans,” most of whom were guilty only of advocating peace in a time of war.

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And we have been here when President Franklin D. Roosevelt insisted that Executive Order 9066 was necessary to save American lives, only to watch him use that order to imprison and pauperize 110,000 Americans while his man in charge, General DeWitt, told Congress: “It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen—he is still a Japanese.”

And even earlier in our history...

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President John Adams insisted that the Alien and Sedition Acts were necessary to save American lives, only to watch him use those acts to jail newspaper editors.

Sadly we are witness to history repeating itself yet again. And sadly history will bear witness yet again that Bush's violation of the "very foundations of this nation's freedoms" is no less wrong than the fear mongered actions of Presidents Adams, Wilson and Roosevelt.

For a most excellent commentary from which the above quotes are taken go to 'Beginning of the end of America'

Tom

[Neil D]

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That's easy... Russia wasn't out to kill every American, Christian and Jew just because of their beliefs. Russia did not seek to attempt Kamikaze attacks. Russia is and was out for the money, plain and simple. That's why we beat them, not through fighting, or chnaging their minds about us, but by forcing them to economically dig themselves in a hole.

Oh good night...How old are you, KeyGuy?

You don't remember the oppression of the gulage, where most of the Christian and jewish dissadents/and free thinkers were politically imprissoned? And what about Afghistan? Russia wasn't out for money...they were into spreading thier brand of communism...Remmeber Cuba? South America???

And you are correct, we did beat them thru economics....and religion...and thru information...

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What you'll end up with is a more wealthy enemy that still hates us and wants us dead. I don't want to pay for that. For them, it's not about the money! They've got tons of it now... it's called oil. The profits from their oil pay for the extremists

So explain why they hate us...Just because we are Americans?...Sorry, I don't buy it. There is another reason, one which you are obviously not looking for....and wouldn't believe if it was presented to you on a platter.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't want to minimize the good work done by these other countries nor jump on a "USA #1" bandwagon but let's remember that one of the biggest reasons the US doesn't give more forgien aid than it does is becuase of its large military expense of protecting the free world. Add the cost the US spends for its military in Germany, Japan, South Korea, Philipians, Cuba and a portion of its Navy and the equation looks much more favorable for them.

However I am not one that believes the US does more than its share. Yet I question the wisdom of some of what it does.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

So explain why they hate us...

Israel

[Neil D]

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So explain why they hate us...

Israel

What about it?

That doesn't explain the reason why they will give thier lives for a foreign country...

[Tom Wetmore]

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Actual analysis of the success rate of torture at getting correct information shows it is very low. Indeed, "coddling" as you label it - being kinder than expected and forming relationships has been demonstrated to be as effective.

Spin Alert!

German soldiers and Muslim jihadists are apples and oranges.

Try again.

No problema amigo... I'll happily try again...

One of the lead interrogators at Gitmo interrogating Muslim jihadists observed that one of their most effective techniques was simply giving a cigarette to a smoker in exchange for information.

And after describing that very technique from Viet Nam another intelligence operative said "'The point is, you get better results from being relatively humane to [prisoners], rather than beating on them,' says the interrogator today, who asked to remain anonymous due to continuing work with US intelligence." -- How interrogation tactics have changed

Tom

[Dr. Shane]

Well done, Tom. Much better.

I am sure that works for some. Others need tougher tactics.

[Key Guy]

Quoted: "You don't remember the oppression of the gulage, where most of the Christian and jewish dissadents/and free thinkers were politically imprissoned? And what about Afghistan? Russia wasn't out for money...they were into spreading thier brand of communism...Remmeber Cuba? South America???

And you are correct, we did beat them thru economics....and religion...and thru information..."

Reply: Nope.. It was about power which results in more money. True communism doesn't set up leaders who are extremely wealthy while the rest of the peons starve. When we Americans dump huge amounts of money into countries to help the starving folks, where does the majority of the funds end up? In the coffers of the leadership. Castro, Noriega, Soviet leaders are just some of the examples that hit me. Those guys live(d)like literal kings.

Why didn't Russia attack us on our soil? Why didn't they send over homicide bombers to our malls? It's because they wouldn't make a dime on it. Not only that, they didn't consider their 'religion' of communism to be worth dying for; like Muslim extremism.

Quoted: "So explain why they hate us...Just because we are Americans?...Sorry, I don't buy it. There is another reason, one which you are obviously not looking for....and wouldn't believe if it was presented to you on a platter."

Reply: It's because they hate Jews, Christians, capitalists with secular freedoms (aka Americans, Spanish, English, Australians, certain Iraqi factions and anyone else they are attacking). If your beliefs do not agree with theirs, you're dead meat. How many examples do you need? I have more.

Sadly, it doesn't matter. The bottom line is that nowadays we all select one side of the issue or another with very little wiggle room to change or agree. We'll talk about this 'til we're blue and still nothing will change.

I'm done. I'll leave this subject and go on blindly saluting the flag and pledging allegiance to the US and the tyrants that lead it, ignoring that they are destroying the world and that we deserve the death that's coming to us.

[Naomi]

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I'm done. I'll leave this subject and go on blindly saluting the flag and pledging allegiance to the US and the tyrants that lead it, ignoring that they are destroying the world and that we deserve the death that's coming to us.

Hey, I'll stand with you saluting the flag and pledging allegiance to the US and praying for the tyrants that lead it. OK?