Putting people in their place

[LifeHiscost]

Most of the individuals who post on this forum claim to be Christian. At least that's my theory. I have a question to ask for the sake of my own desire to frequent this forum, not particularly epousing any lack of guilt on my own part.

Should we be presenting the Word as it has been revealed to us, in the hopes that God will, by His Holy Spirit, convict our brothers and sisters of His love for them, as well as His ability to save them despite their shortcomings (not to mention our own), or on the other hand should we present our own opinions without clarification by the Word, then when someone rejects the reasoning we've presented, ridicule them for their unbelief, presenting to them the idea that God has no other options than the one's with which we are familiar.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is this. Should we start a forum thread where only the individuals who know the Bible and God's Truth without flaw, could log in to the exclusion of all others who are not so blest, but of course who would be able to view the ongoing dialogue between the absolute truth-givers, with the hope that we who fall short might one day reach our aspirations to the same heights enlightenment.

OTOH we could give our personal testimony of Jesus love for us and why we think He loves us so much.

"By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:He who was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory." 1 Tim 3:16 NASB

"Can you find out the deep things of God, or can you by searching find out the limits of the Almighty [explore His depths, ascend to His heights, extend to His breadths, and comprehend His infinite perfection]?"

Job 11:7 AMP

[Naomi]

Hi Life, Perhaps I am dense or confused what exactly do you think should the approach should be?

What do you want form the forum?

[Dr. Shane]

This sounds like a loaded question. Should we spread the gospel the right way or the selfish way? Hmmmmm, answer A???

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Well, heck. Let's first nominate a committee. Everyone write down a few names and submit it to Stan. I nominate Peter Rabbit (for the youth of the forum), Henny Penny (*the sky is falling*), and The Three Little Pigs (so's not to be unduly kosher).

Alternates could be the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg, and the Emperor Who *Wore* His New *Clothes*....

I have no idea who to nominate as the token female..

[Gerr]

And who among us "know the Bible without flaw?"

It is nigh impossible to present Scriptures apart from our own opinions. Even if we were to quote only Scripture, the way we quote it in answer to a question is an opinion in itself, because someone else may understand it differently and may use it totally opposite to the way you would use it.

Gerry

[LifeHiscost]

And who among us "know the Bible without flaw?"

It is nigh impossible to present Scriptures apart from our own opinions. Even if we were to quote only Scripture, the way we quote it in answer to a question is an opinion in itself, because someone else may understand it differently and may use it totally opposite to the way you would use it.

Gerry

Thank you for all of your answers. Considering what I wrote, every answer was appropriate and had the thoughtfulness that probably reflects in some measure the frustration I often feel about the body of Christ, as reflected in Club Adventist, not to mention other venues that allow freedom of thought. I think it was Naomi that asked the question, what was I looking for or thoughts to that end. Here's what Jesus desires according to what He has revealed.

"And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

...till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;

from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in due measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love. " Ephesians 4:11-16 ASV

I'm hoping this might be reflected more so as we see the forum touching more lives as opposed to attacking those who disagree with our own personal convictions. Is it too much for which to ask?

"A bruised reed shall he not break, And smoking flax shall he not quench, Till he send forth judgment unto victory.

And in his name shall the Gentiles hope.

Then was brought unto him one possessed with a demon, blind and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the dumb man spake and saw." Matthew 12:20-22 ASV

"A bruised reed He will not break, and a smoldering (dimly burning) wick He will not quench, till He brings justice and a just cause to victory.

And in and on His name will the Gentiles (the peoples outside of Israel) set their hopes.

Then a blind and dumb man under the power of a demon was brought to Jesus, and He cured him, so that the blind and dumb man both spoke and saw." Matt 12:20-22 AMP

[Look Alive!]

Hi LifeHisCost,

When I see these exchanges, I see two different dynamics going on. One is aggressive and the other, reactive. Each appears to the other to fulfill this "frustrating thing" you have spoken about in your first post, that is,

Quote:

present[ing] our own opinions without clarification by the Word, then when someone rejects the reasoning we've presented, ridicule them for their unbelief, presenting to them the idea that God has no other options than the one's with which we are familiar.

The problem as I see it, is that someone instigates this behavior first. This causes a reaction on the part of the one they have offended/attacked, and the one feeling attacked responds with a complaint of being attacked. The instigator then processes this complaint as an attack on himself, and ping-pongs it back to the one he attacked in the first place, making it seem as though the source of the trouble is the one first hit rather than the one who hit first. It is a form of deflection, distraction and self-exoneration known as "mirroring", and indeed over time it builds up into a real case of "smoke and mirrors". It may be that the instigator honestly does not perceive himself as having attacked first, but the fact remains that when the complaint of his having done so is brought to his attention, he ignores any validity in that complaint and chooses instead to recast the entire event as a case of him "standing up for truth" and being unjustly accused by the one he actually, in reality, attacked. THEN when the person attacked complains of what is being done, THIS in turn is recast as THEM doing the "attacking".

The whole thing quickly escalates into a big mess.

What complicates matters is that, in presenting what one understands to be God's truth, sometimes words are spoken in general that are misperceived as personal attack and then the instigator goes on the offensive, both attacking the other person AND complaining that he himself has been attacked.

Again, a big mess.

I think in presenting Truth (as one understands it), it is not possible to completely avoid characterising such views as are perceived to compromise or work against such Truth as being "of satan" (or whatever). I think that is inevitable. What is not inevitable, however, is directly attributing that "satan-ness" to individuals specifically, insinuating they must be in league with the devil and insinuating bad things about their sanity, their motives, their character, etc. This IS completely avoidable, and it is high time some of us here started to completely avoid that kind of nonsense, because "with what measure we mete it shall be measured unto us again."

Just some thoughts. God bless.

[Look Alive!]

Quote:

"A bruised reed shall he not break, And smoking flax shall he not quench, Till he send forth judgment unto victory.

And in his name shall the Gentiles hope.

Then was brought unto him one possessed with a demon, blind and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the dumb man spake and saw." Matthew 12:20-22 ASV

AMEN.

Looking at the title of this thread, "Putting people in their place," I would have to say that the moment we imagine it is our place to do that, we have left the service of Christ and chosen -- at least for the moment -- another master.

[cricket]

Re[rudywoofs]: Peter Rabbit, Henny Penny, etc..

Spot on!

_____________

These discussions are absolutely fascintating. Think I'll go back to the chat room now.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Life,

I am one who has been involved lately with some personalized posts that are not pleasant to the receiver. There was a purpose for that and it was not to hurt. I even went on to explain that this is what I was doing and brought up scripture to show that this was also done by Jesus to Peter and Elijah with the prophets of Baal. Not to say that Jesus ridiculed anyone, but He did say some hard things to those who needed it.

Here's what I see going on. It's not so much a discussion with disagreements but rather some who believe something that is not in the Bible and are trying to spread that here. At first I tried to reason and then warn and then it became personal, but only because a certain person was being brought up as a messenger of God when they are not.

What do we do about that? Well we listen to the message and if it is not scriptural we have to do something proportionate with the claim, because the claim is so great. If the message is of God then we praise God and accept it.

When I'm having a discussion with someone I'll go on and on till it's no longer worth discussing or we've solved the issue in one way or another.

You can't do that with heresy. Who am I to say what heresy is? No one, but the Bible is clear. Rather than have rules about what to say or where to say it maybe we should define heresy using the Bible.

Then we can have a heresy forum, have a hersy moderate who follows the guidelines and determines when to send the thread there. You know I am not serious, but what do we do with heresy?

Disagreeing is a mattter of interpertation but what do you do with teachings that are flat out unscpritural, but yet is claimed as from a messenger of God?

Norman

[Look Alive!]

It's not so much a discussion with disagreements but rather some who believe something that is not in the Bible and are trying to spread that here ... it became personal ... because a certain person was being brought up as a messenger of God when they are not.

You can't do that with heresy. Who am I to say what heresy is? No one, but the Bible is clear ... what do we do with heresy?

Disagreeing is a matter of interpertation but what do you do with teachings that are flat out unscpritural,

You see, to even make statements of this nature it is clear that you have certain unspoken "axiomatic assumptions" about what constitutes Truth and what the Bible teaches, which you obviously expect everyone else to adhere to but which are in fact YOUR axioms and not theirs, and therefore they CANNOT adhere to them. Make sense?

You ASSUME, as a starting position, that YOUR understanding of "what the Bible teaches" and "what is scriptural" is completely accurate and beyond question -- or at the very least, sufficiently accurate and beyond question as to enable you to sit in judgment on such matters concerning a message brought by someone else that to YOUR ears "does not sound right" because it calls into question certain components of your personal position on things.

The fact of the matter is, the Bible is NOT clear on what is heresy beyond a few very definite facts such as denying that Christ has come in the flesh, etc. When it comes to the nuances of the things you are referring to, there are different ways the Bible texts may be read -- and in any such case, when people differ on their understanding, they are naturally going to believe the other party is reading it with a veil on (at best) or skewing the text on purpose (at worst). But the Bible IS clear on one thing: we are NOT to view one another in the "worst" light. And when we set up ourselves, our minds, and our interpretations of what constitutes "scriptural" teaching or "what the Bible teaches" and then use this as a basis for condemning someone else presenting a message FROM SCRIPTURE as "heretical" or "lying" or "in league with the devil" or "insane" precisely because it doesn't match what WE think is "truth", then we are indeed painting others in the WORST light, and THAT is a CLEAR violation of scripture in itself.

Attempting to recast this as something reasonable is also against scripture, as it constitutes as much breaking of the 9th commandment as the false characterisations of others did originally. So one false witness compounds another -- first the false witness against a Brother, casting him in the worst light imaginable -- and then the cover-up false witness on top of that seeking to excuse and exonerate oneself from having done so and make it appear as taking some stand for "truth".

As long as we set up our own minds and our interpretations of scripture as the basis for judging one another personally if we happen to disagree with one another, we are courting disaster. By the power of the True and Ever-Living God, I abjure you to cease and desist this course, for none of us can prevail thereby, but only work harm to ourselves and the entire community of faith as a matter of course. We should not be about the business of biting and devouring one another.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Look Alive,

It's obvious to all who have been reading the threads, who I am talking about. I just don't want to use names.

Quote:

The fact of the matter is, the Bible is NOT clear on what is heresy beyond a few very definite facts such as denying that Christ has come in the flesh, etc. When it comes to the nuances of the things you are referring to, there are different ways the Bible texts may be read --

LA, it may not be clear to you but it is to me, what can I say? I study the Bible and pray for understand and I call it as I see it. Then I use the Bible to back up my points. The things is I am not the only one who holds to these truths. Here's the way to know if it is true. Is it in the Bible, can it be proved by the Bible? Is there more than one text, properly interpreted, to back up the point? What do our church fathers and SOP have to say about the topic. (Just because our church was founded 100 yrs ago or so it doesn't mean that what they found is outdated.)

I will bring out the point that I don't agree with just to prove what I am saying.

Point: Everyone will be saved.

Salvation is not a tricky, hidden topic. Jesus owns words refute that statement. This is basic fundamental Christianity. Everyone knows that not everyone will be saved. Even those who don't believe as I do. But there are some who believe that statement and that is their choice. But when someone then tries to tell me that this is truth and uses Bible verses out of context, I must disagree strongly.

Most people on CA do not believe that all will be saved and for a good reason. It just not taught in the Bible.

When we see this and then someone says that this is a message from God, you'll get posts like mine and others; and some will just not comment at all. But be sure of this, what those of us who disagree are posting is being seconded by many who are silent.

Salvation and who is going to be saved is not a nuance that is difficult to understand. I'm not talking about individuals but groups such as believers and unbelievers or the righteous and the wicked.

Norman

[Naomi]

WOW... we are so blessed with new members who wish to share so much, in depth, new light.

Quote:

As long as we set up our own minds and our interpretations of scripture as the basis for judging one another personally if we happen to disagree with one another, we are courting disaster. By the power of the True and Ever-Living God, I abjure you to cease and desist this course,

I believe we can all agree that there is only one judge ... and our judge will not be posting on this board.

OTOH, this is a public forum ... many read it; they may agree, disagree, agree to disagree and by doing it in a non-combatant manner is acceptable. When discussing the scriptures IMHO it is important to look at the entire context of what the chapter and verse are saying. For example:

( I shall preface this by saying that I know this is a weak example … I am only putting it this way in an effort to apply the KISS principal: an attempt to avoid many more pages of documentation.) "He Killed" and in another verse "Go thou and do likewise"

Upon entering a discussion, common courtesy can give your statements several points.

We're walking on dangerous ground when we presume to have the audacity to “Speak for God."

A new prophet would met certain criteria … I am sure that when Sister White began she followed a somewhat different path of spreading the gospel … and I am not referring to using the world-wide net.

[Look Alive!]

Norman, revelation from God has always been progressive, and we are entering a time spoken of in the book of Revelation as the time when "the mystery of God should be finished, as He spake unto His servants the prophets." (The days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound.) Jesus Himself even stated to His disciples that He had MANY more things to teach them and tell them, but that they were not ready to bear it. This was prior to the crucifixion, obviously. It is the CROSS which split era from era in history, and inaugurated a whole new way of understanding the Love, Truth, Justice and Mercy of God and how that operated. Christ's was a LIVING demonstration, intended that we point to it ETERNALLY as the FINAL WORD, the FINAL SAY about all such matters, doctrine, future, prophecy, salvation, WHATEVER. And His Cross is extraordinarily clear: God, who has not only all power in the universe but EVERY RIGHT TO DO OTHERWISE, lays down His life for His enemies who are ready to destroy Him in murderous blind rage -- rather than the alternative of taking up His "rights" and the justice penalty demanded by the Law and slaying them, instead.

No word ever spoken on earth by any human being no matter how learned or how much they wish to wrest scripture out of context, can EVER abrogate or undo that perfect revelation. None!! And just in case we missed it somehow? We have reams and reams of testimony throughout the New TEstament as well as prophecy from the Old to set the matter in, like putting a precious perfect flawless emerald in a pristine setting of carefully crafted gold!

OTOH we could give our personal testimony of Jesus love for us and why we think He loves us so much.

Oh LIFEHisCOST! I think He loves me so much because He had every right and reason to destroy me and He chose not to! He chose to let ME kill HIM on the CROSS with my sins, my selfishness, my rage, my rebellion, my refusal to obey, my stuck-up attitudes, my "I'm better than you" nonsense, my bitterness, my self-absorption, my calloused disregard of others, etc. etc. all nailed HIM to that Cross and HE LET IT HAPPEN. He did not open His mouth in protest, He let Himself be led there to bleed there for ME. How can I NOT love Him? How can I NOT think such a wondrous love worthy of my heartfelt adoration? How can I NOT think He loves me after such a profound display of His ETERNAL will where His enemies -- of which I was (and technically AM) one (because I still sin and still mess up) -- are concerned?? We should be shouting these things from the rooftops and declaring forth the everlasting covenant and praying for the latter rain to be poured out upon us all so we may ALL grasp this sublime truth of His Love!!! It's all right there at the CROSS, the CROSS, the CROSS!!! I never realised before how important is the CROSS in all this but it is EVERYTHING!!! HALLELUJAH!!!

[Look Alive!]

WOW... we are so blessed with new members who wish to share so much, in depth, new light.

[Aliensanctuary]

It's all too easy to unleash our weapons of self-defense when someone crosses us. Whenever someone tried to involve Jesus in controversy, he usually didn't respond to the invitation and went somewhere else, a really good example for us to follow.

I know a couple in church, our neighbors, who are quick to grab the microphone during testimony time and tell everyone how much they love the lord, but these very people have assaulted us and our pets with their dogs repeatedly, using them as weapons against us, and even their own guests. They refuse to fence their dogs in.

They have never apologized to us, even for killing one of our dogs in our own yard, or apologized to their other human victims. We have finally run out of cheeks to turn and plan to take legal action against them.

The point?

Even people who have their theology correct down to the last dotted "i" or sound like really good Christians with their very public "I love Jesus" stuff may fool us into thinking they're good, solid Christians.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Look Alive,

Quote:

and we are entering a time spoken of in the book of Revelation as the time when "the mystery of God should be finished, as He spake unto His servants the prophets."

I'm not going to comment on what that means, but you surely know that new truth or truth we have not yet understood or seen, will not contradict established truth. Jesus is the same today yesterday and forever. So when Jesus says, Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

We certainly can't find a verse in the Bible and then say," Hey look, I have new light (meaning) for this verse. No one will be lost."

That is what I am concerned with, not new light. I look forward to receiving new light, it's a blessing. When ever I am ready the Lord gives it to me and others too daily of you are open.

Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"A bruised reed shall he not break, And smoking flax shall he not quench, Till he send forth judgment unto victory.

And in his name shall the Gentiles hope.

Then was brought unto him one possessed with a demon, blind and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the dumb man spake and saw." Matthew 12:20-22 ASV

AMEN.

Looking at the title of this thread, "Putting people in their place," I would have to say that the moment we imagine it is our place to do that, we have left the service of Christ and chosen -- at least for the moment -- another master.

(sigh!) And such are the viscitudes of a fallen race. Makes one hunger for the home prepared for those willing to claim the promise from a Savior whose promises never fail.

"Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

" John 14:1-3 ASV

"...neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21

ASV

Maybe it's time for a general uprising in the name of truth to prove a point.

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." Matthew 7:3-5 NKJV

Blessings!!

[cardw]

I believe this whole discussion illustrates the futility of finding an absolute truth or set of truths. That type of truth is an illusion. It doesn't exist. The more you try to define it the less certain it becomes.

One person holds the Bible as the absolute, yet the Bible can't contain all truth since it is in a limited form. Language, letters, and writing are finite forms.

One person says truth is based on what you do and others base it on how it affect society and on and on.

Life is pretty much a great mystery. I don't find that bad at all. In fact it makes life very interesting and adventurous.

Richard

[mrs.rabbi]

~ShabbatShalom~

*

*Life experience is a gift; not everyone receives the same opportunities OR the same wrapping paper or bows.

Jesus taught FROM *life experience*

*Life Application* makes the message of LOVE approachable and not a mere sermonette.

It hhas been our observation to witness not only an increase in interest and learning but is action word deed and truth when life experience REVEALS the *intrinsic value* that G-d has placed in EACH according to His will and good pleasure.

We FIND the HOPE that others SEEK when we first walk the path that they have or or currently traveling.

No one is without *value*

No Experience is ever wasted.

G-d uses EVEN the smallest thins in our lives to do the greatest things.

~Be A Blessing~

Sincerely,*mrs.rabbi*

ClearJewel/HealthyHebrew

HealthyHebrew@teachfitness.com