America In Prophecy

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

11. And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like unto lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12. And he exerciseth all the authority of the first beast in his sight. And he maketh the earth and them dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose death-stroke was healed.

13. And he doeth great signs, that he should even make fire to come down out of heaven upon the earth in the sight of men.

14. And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by reason of the signs which it was given him to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast who hath the stroke of the sword and lived.

15. And it was given unto him to give breath to it, even to the image to the breast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16. And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead;

17. and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Instead of interpretting the word "man" in verse 17 literally, could this refer to nations? I know it is a bit unconventional but it would fit well in the present global economy that those nations not enforcing the mark of the beast would be sanctioned - not allowed to buy or sell.

[Yong T Tay]

Quote: "I know it is a bit unconventional but it would fit well in the present global economy that those nations not enforcing the mark of the beast would be sanctioned - not allowed to buy or sell."

The U.N. lead by the U.S. is in Prophecy. The U.N. will enforce economy sanction against those nations which does not have the mark of the beast.

[Aliensanctuary]

In the book of Revelation, we're looking at an End-Times scenario, that is, events just before and just after the 1000 years. This 2-horned Beast, a government with 2 apparently peaceful, yet extremely powerful rulers, arises during this time.

Satan's government at the End of Time is overthrown, then replaced by the 2-Horned Dragon-Voiced government, which re-instates a copy of the 7-Headed 10-Horned Beast government.

Identifying the US as the 2-Horned Beast is a very, very long shot, although we can't rule out the possibility that this beast's seat of government could be located here.

I suspect the governments of the US and other nations we are familiar with will no longer exist in this time period.

[there buster]

I will not subject myself or my views to the abuse which is the routine here.

However, if someone wants to know my thoughts on this topic, I will discuss it at

[url removed by Gregory Matthews.]

[Gregory Matthews]

The person posting as Adventist Author above appears to be Ed Dickerson, who formerly posted here.

I am confused by the URL that he posted. When I logged on that URL about 25 per-cent of my screen was devoted to religious/spiritual issues, which I assume may have been written by Ed Dickerson.

However, about 75 per-cent of the screen was devoted to, if I may say delicately, male sexual performance, and how to "do it" better.

Perhaps Ed's website was hijacked, and he is not aware of that content. I do not know. But, I do not think that Club Adventist needs to be used to promote the sale of such products, as it appears was being done.

[jasd]

QR frame:

America in Prophecy

But of course!

JerUSAlem

The very center of Gd's city, no less. [/kidding]

However, seriously, "as the stars of heaven, as the sands upon the shore, as the dust of earth..."

Where are they? The 3 million or so, inclusively, Jews and jews in State of Israel? including the sundry others of Koestler's "Thirteenth Tribe"? the other dispersed 14 million worldwide?

A close approximation yields a population of 15 million COI at the time of King David.

There has to be, presently, more, yes? no?

Where?

[jasd]

Zechariah 2:1-4, "I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand. Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said to me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof. And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him. And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein."

“…Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein."

The old city “Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns…” (or consist of towns). Is that true of present-day Jerusalem?

No, because the old city Jerusalem is not the biblical 'prophetic Jerusalem' (without drawing upon the New Jerusalem of Revelations).

“…multitude of men … therein?”

Apparently not.

Or, “…cattle therein?”

Don’t think so.

Arizona, being, in large part, mostly desert, slaughters more cattle each year than exist in State of Israel. One, owning a cow in State of Israel,

must seek permit to butcher that cow… for the very scarceness of them. (The foregoing is dated by a bit more than a decade)

I suggest that one can hardly find a more appropriate place to begin a search for America in Prophecy than...

2 Sam 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

The above are the words of Gd as spoken to Nathan, His prophet. The question obtaining is

WHERE? is that place of appointment?

In Matthew 10:23 ... Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

“…not gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come?” That’s a whole bunch of cities, yes? However, it would have been a matter of short duration for Christ’s disciples to encompass the “cities” of Israel in their day… even today,

a man can “encompass” the cities, towns, villages, and kibbutzim in State of Israel in, perhaps, a matter of months, or years. There is

a missing ‘piece’ needing to be brought into play on the board of hermeneutics.

Gen 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Dust? Stars? Sand?

The text above are explicit in that the seed of Abraham is/are beyond man’s counting; that is, unless Christ delays His coming into the way far and away distant future… or, Abraham’s ‘seed’ continue(s) to procreate indefinitely – perhaps throughout eternity.

[Clio]

We do not know when Abba will send our Bridegroom... but we can certainly identify various trends which will be converging at the time prophesied in Revelation.

• Religion / Religious Bodies dominating politics *peers at newspaper* Yep.
• The increasing political influence of Catholicism... Yep
• Increased spiritualism, including government & church officials involvement.... uh huh... that one too.
• An increase in frequency and magnitude of natural disasters....yep
• Fear..... yes
• US led globalization of just about everything... check
• Ecumenicism, regardless of difference in doctrines... the call for ecumenicism grows
• Crime, lawlessness, immorality ... Yes... that's growing and converging too.
• Creationism vs. Other theories... Yep it's a hot topic again.
• A respectability for belief in aliens, first contact, channeling aliens, and the idea of benevolent alien saviours
• Reinterpretation of the constitution in favor of religion - Not yet, but coming.
• National Sunday Laws.... - on the books but not enforced.

Many of these trends have occurred at various times in history. But not all of them converged at once. If you read the Bible carefully, building line upon line and precept upon precept as we are instructed to do in Isaiah, then it is possible to see that the final tribulation occurs when all of these trends start to converge

Trends are part of what I do for a living. Identifying trends is critical to my team's success. It's something at which I am pretty good. Ask just about any of my bosses over the last 20 years.

The trends are converging... and they have been for a while.

[Dr. Shane]

• Religion / Religious Bodies dominating politics *peers at newspaper* Yep.
• Reinterpretation of the constitution in favor of religion - Not yet, but coming.
• National Sunday Laws.... - on the books but not enforced.

These three are hardly signs since they have been around since the beginning of the nation. Actually, the Constitution was only interpretted against religion some 40 to 45 years ago. The courts were very anti-reliion for a long time and only in recent years have they been allowing more religous expression as part of free speach.

Sunday laws have been around since before the Constitution and one even carried a death penalty!

I think the globolization is one of our biggest signs. The UN is downright scary.

[jasd]

>>Dust? Stars? Sand?<<

Despite the several passages in the OT referencing the numbers of Israel as comparable to the above stars, etc, the question follows…, How given is Gd to excessive hyperbole?

Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Wow! that’s just the House of David! Does Gd indulge (a la jasd) in hyperbole? Perhaps, the above biblical references of Gd-speak are just that – hyperbole? Hmmm, …don’t think so. Were that so,

one then hesitates …upon the entirety of Gd’s word. Moreover,

Jer 19:10 Then shalt thou break the bottle in the sight of the men that go with thee, v11 And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.

speaks of Judah/Jerusalem, does it not?

Question: Does the potter retrieve and reassemble the broken pieces? Obviously not…

“… that cannot be made whole again: …”

Does Jeremiah 19 allow for present-day State of Israel -- a "whole", as it were?

Can one hermeneutically factor State of Israel-as-fulfillment-of-OT-prophecies? umm, as do the Evangelicals?

[jasd]

I would add another...

"...flee the cities..." EGW

The above quote is paraphrased

Must, of necessity, we consider the "trends" as simply 'in flux' until such time as we see SDAs migrating to that 'small holding in the country'? Or,

might we be advised not to hold our collective breath?

[John317]

In the book of Revelation, we're looking at an End-Times scenario, that is, events just before and just after the 1000 years. This 2-horned Beast, a government with 2 apparently peaceful, yet extremely powerful rulers, arises during this time.

During what time? Do you mean it arises before or just after the 1000 years? Apparently "End times" mean for you everything from before to just after the 1000 years, so this Beast may not arise until after the end of the 1000 years, is that right?

Quote:

Satan's government at the End of Time is overthrown, then replaced by the 2-Horned Dragon-Voiced government, which re-instates a copy of the 7-Headed 10-Horned Beast government.

I wish you would be a little bit more specific at to when this happens and what the sequence of events is.

Quote:

Identifying the US as the 2-Horned Beast is a very, very long shot, although we can't rule out the possibility that this beast's seat of government could be located here.

Do you have any idea of the identity of the 2-Horned Beast?

Quote:

I suspect the governments of the US and other nations we are familiar with will no longer exist in this time period.

Have you ever studied the book Uriah Smith wrote on Revelation? Have you ever read any SDA authors, such as Mervin Maxwell's, Desmond Ford's, or Roy Allen Anderson's, on Revelation? You might want to check out Ellen White's, The Great Controversy, as well. There are also some very good non-SDA commentaries on Revelation that you might become familiar with. Perhaps you have read some of these already but I just don't find it apparent that you are all that familiar with Revelation 4 to 14 or with how those chapters are viewed by the church. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but being familiar with how the church has viewed them often can help one avoid a lot of mistakes in one's interpretation. It can also give one a good idea how to study Revelation.

You seem a bit confused as to whether the second beast of Revelation 13 arises before or after the 1000 years. It makes a big difference because we're talking about a 1000 year period. If it happens after the 1000 years, there is really not much for us to worry about it, it would seem. On the other hand, if this beast has not yet even so much as appeared on the scene of action, it would seem to be impossible to know its identity for sure. Therefore, if your view is correct, I would think it is almost a waste of time to discuss this beast. Please help me out if this is not the case, would you?

[David Koot]

Actually, the Constitution was only interpretted against religion some 40 to 45 years ago . . . The courts were very anti-reliion for a long time and only in recent years have they been allowing more religous expression as part of free speach.

[Aliensanctuary]

john317,

Why Daniel and John and a few others were picked to receive visions of the End Times is unknown to me. One possible mechanism is that "thought waves" or "spirits" from the future were sent to these men if the messengers didn't actually appear to them in person.

Both Daniel and Rev indicate the key players in the Last Days of Earth as we know it. These are the 4 kingdoms of the statue of Dan 2. Maybe Babylon is actually the United States of Babylon, but probably not. The 4th kingdom, the 666 Beast, conquers the previous 3 kingdoms using weapons humans have little defense against. It is in fact, an invasion by forces not native to this world, Satan's Kingdom.

Instead of buying Smith, Maxwell, Ford, or Anderson, we might be better off using the money to buy a few bags of groceries to give to the elderly poor or needy families with children. We can read these visions of the End Times in our own Bibles and draw our own conclusions. Our published authors might even be wrong.

Yes, I am having some difficulty with the sequence of the End Times, but will continue studying it, as we all should.

[jasd]

Is 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

Well, having proffered several bullet-points upon why prophetic Jerusalem cannot be the old city Jerusalem – or, the land wherein it sits today…

let me ask yet another question: Is the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box tree found to grow naturally together in State of Israel? That asked,

they do occur naturally together in the Pacific Northwest, USA (and parts of British Columbia) – a place brought back from the wilderness of volcanic material (the entire region forward of the Rockies lies upon volcanic material).

Educated opinion forwards that – there is no other region in the world where these three trees are found growing together.

[jasd]

>>I would add another...

"...flee the cities..." EGW

The above quote is paraphrased <<

I posted the above as segue to the following:

I’ve attempted to dialogue with a number of SDAs about the importance of ‘preparing’ for unforeseen circumstances. The common rejoinder has always been,

“We are advised to not store the items commonly associated with ‘preparedness’ – as that would manifest a lack of faith in Gd’s providence. Further, we are advised to not

take care for the concerns of tomorrow…” Yet, I find that

the ‘Prophet of 70% of SDAs’ enjoins ‘believers’ to do exactly THAT, that is,

‘prepare’ by leaving the cities for that little homestead in lesser places. And,

THAT is preached from the pulpit.

“Say what!?” Pogo

[Aliensanctuary]

I don't think it would be a bad idea to stash an emergency supply of food and water, not for the horrendous Time of Trouble, but if and when our fuel/food/electrical power supplies are disrupted or are not available for an extended period of time.

In a simpler, agricultural society it was essential to preserve and store food to use during the months when fresh food was in limited supply. If we depend completely on supermarkets as our food source and these stores lock their doors or are looted to bare shelves, we will probably go hungry for a while.

For individuals on the run from political/religious persecution, there would be limited possibilities for food production and storage for future use. If people are on the run, either they will have to eat what they can scavenge on their own or depend on an outside source. Manna must have had all of the nutrients necessary for a person to be healthy.

People couldn't live in a city or anywhere else with no water, electricity, or food for very long. Hungry or selfish people without honor or conscience would prey on those who had anything useful to them.

In the country, if a person has taken the trouble to learn and practice gardening skills, the produce stored from the previous summer's crops would be a life-saver until the hordes from the cities overran the outlying areas, if they make it that far. No doubt cannibalism would become an important means of nutrition.

That's probably one of the most important tests in a person's life: What would we do if we were hungry enough. Would we be content to die of starvation, or, would we take someone else's food by force or stealth?

If the 7-head beast and the 2-horned beast sell food to the people, maybe they can manufacture it from raw materials to feed the masses, unable to grow their own food because of wars and climate changes. Maybe they can manufacture manna, too.

[Aliensanctuary]

Clio,

Quote:

A respectability for belief in aliens, first contact, channeling aliens, and the idea of benevolent alien saviours

You may not accept this, but your Abba and his son are aliens, beings not native to this world. Same for his angels, all aliens, too, unless of course they all originated and live here on Earth undetected, invisible.

Satan of course would also be an alien being, along with all of his followers. That's why I think the 7-headed beast government is not of Earthly origin, because it is so different from the previous 3 kingdoms at the End of Time, and so ruthless.

[Clio]

Clio,

Quote:

A respectability for belief in aliens, first contact, channeling aliens, and the idea of benevolent alien saviours

You may not accept this, but your Abba and his son are aliens, beings not native to this world. Same for his angels, all aliens, too, unless of course they all originated and live here on Earth undetected, invisible.

Satan of course would also be an alien being, along with all of his followers. That's why I think the 7-headed beast government is not of Earthly origin, because it is so different from the previous 3 kingdoms at the End of Time, and so ruthless.

I see where you're coming from AS regarding Abba and Jesus, but you have forgotten something. The Creator(s)of a thing are not alien to that thing. In fact, the Creator(s) of a thing are more intimately, totally, connected to that thing and can never be described as "aliens" in the same sense that we are talking about in terms of "first contact", channeled beings etc.

The Adversary in not our Creator, and thus is alien in a way Abba will never be, and certainly not Jesus who was born of woman and became as us.

[jasd]

>>Educated opinion forwards that – <<

Awkward? Admittedly. Might ‘informed opinion’ have been less awkward? Admittedly;

however, in that they are both qualifiers (I may have been ill-advised to have used ‘qualifiers’ for deference’s sake)… let us simply dispense with them and take the sentence as a straightforward read,

“These three trees grow together nowhere else but in the Pacific Northwest, northern California, and the environs of British Columbia.”

according to the Future Farmers of America and other sources…

The myrtle tree: There are no myrtle trees in the Levant; there are myrtle bushes. Some of those bushes do attain a height of 10’, however. Would a 10’ bush be a tree? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

The greatest concentration of ‘myrtle trees’ (they are upwards of 150’ tall) in the world grow in Oregon. The next greatest concentration of ‘myrtle trees’ are found in Tennessee. Though subtle, and perhaps not at all meaningful… they do constitute a rather nice symbolic brace, isn’t it?

[jasd]

>>The myrtle tree:<<

Is the myrtle tree significant to this thread? Mebbe, mebbe not. However, consider,

Is 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

...for an everlasting sign…?

“Say what! no expansion?”

“What do you mean, no expansion?”

“Go figure”

“…just that, go figure?”

Zech 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.

Horses – red, speckled, and white. Figurative? Otherwise?

Does the fact that the man rode a red horse necessitate that the other horses also be solidly colored? …don’t think the sentence structure allows for that posit. In fact,

inference drawn… lies with horses that are red, speckled, and white – rather than horses that are red, and horses that are speckled, and horses that are white.

Preposterous? …don’t think so.

Note: The man stood among ‘the myrtle trees’. In light of the above post, that itself is a huge indicator.

Note: There is in Oregon, Washington, and Idaho – a breed of horses, indigenous to the area, (and no other) which is red, speckled, and white. It is the Appaloosa breed. Encarta states that

their origin is unknown (regardless, surmises of other authority).

Is there a term which might apply to the above text? perhaps – figurative, metaphorical, representative, symbolic, emblematic, …mebbe allegorical? Can’t be poetic, can it?

Anyway, there it is…

[jasd]

Is 18:2 … a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!

Metes and Bounds Act of 1800 (a surveying act which took the surveyors 90 years to complete): The USA is the only nation on earth that has been trodden and measured from sea to shining sea and from border to boundary.

There are a number of translations, ie, the New King James, the American Standard, and the Amplified that translate “whose land the rivers have spoiled!” as, "whose land the rivers divide". (America is fairly quartered by the rivers Mississippi which divide our country East and West; the Ohio river complex dividing eastern America – North and South; and the Missouri river system dividing the land west of the Mississippi – North and South)

Google… image NASA earth night – or similar, for a view of the grid patterns of America (none exist elsewhere).

[jasd]

I’ll not further dwell upon “America in Prophecy -- Trends...” – as I believe the interested should individually search out the matter… There are many

Biblical references that support the purport

Gd abandoned old Canaanland…; moreover,

there are many Biblical references pointing elsewhere – as the land(s) where Gd intended the COI fulfill their destiny.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

It is here in America where the Orthodox, Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, etc… proclaim that though it is the Jews who are Gd’s chosen people…

we are the sons of the living Gd.

Is there not fulfillment in the words of Hosea 1:10?