Twisted Logic on the Sabbath

[David Koot]

Questions :

1.) "One judges a day above a day; another judges every day."

Is this statement encrouched in the thought context of weekday sabbaths of certain holidays being honored?

Or is it in argument of keeping the weekly seventh day for honoring the Decalogue commandment day?

The answer seems clear on several levels:

1) The word is 'hemera,' the standard word for 'day.' No mention of the Sabbath is made.

2) The Sabbath is not a disputable matter. Paul specifically mentions 'disputable matters.' The Sabbath is enjoined by God in the Ten commandments, as well as at Creation. Other days are not enjoined by God.

3) When Jesus said in Mt. 5 that He had come to 'fulfill' the law, the Greek word is 'plhrosai,' rather than a form of 'telew.' IOW Jesus came to show what the moral law is all about, rather than to end it by fulfilling it.

4) The day of worship was not an issue in A.D. 60's. It did not become an issue until the second century. That is true historically, and it is clear from the Jerusalem Council, Acts 15. If the Sabbath were an issue at the time, then we can know that the devout Jews would have said something about it. Instead, their big issues were food offered to idols, circumcision and fornication.

5) We also know historically what the controversy WAS that Paul was writing about. The Gentiles had various holidays. Devout Jews felt that these were pagan. Also, some believers fasted on certain days, while others fasted on other days, and did finger-pointing back and forth.

THOSE were the issue which Paul was addressing.

Dave

This verse is the pivot of all arguments for Sunday worship I get from the 'other' sheep.

Having been in the mind-set earlier in life of believing there is for the NT believers a new dispensation of living out one's faith in God and handling the tiny jot and titles of the 600+ OT laws differently then kosher orthodox Jews of Pre-Babylon days, I can understand how denominational believers uses 'judging a day' verse to justify their God's Law laxness in working on Saturday.

2.) Have any of you testimony of words from converted-to-Sabbath honoring (away from Sunday honoring believers) by already born-again Christians 'why' they are now honoring the Sabbath?

I would like to see in print such testimonies for the sake of becoming aware of what their crucial point for their change of attitude was.

The minister pointing out to me my need to obey God in the matter helped vitally I admit. But mainly with me it was a revelation by Holy Spirit using what I had in my heart aready.

1. God does not change.

2. Shadows of truths pointing to Christ have been fulfilled.

3. Sabbath weekly has to do with Creation and is not some shadow truth. Doesn't hang (directly) with Christ's atonement or resurrection.

4. Not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. If nine of the big ten commandments should not be passed away then surely the one on the Sabbath honoring should stay equally active for a believer. Just as God laid it out and on the Day he chose.

[D. Allan]

Dave, I wish i could find my grammar. My memory is not good enough to make my 'greek' useful. Here is a 'tidbit' I find interesting in verse 17 of Col. But here's the verse first:

'which are a shadow of things to come but the body (is) of Christ.' The reason estiv is sing. is because Paul is lumping everything together in one shadow, not shadows. And one body, not bodies, of Christ. But why is 'things to come' plural? 'Twv mellovtwv'

~d.allan

'

[David Koot]

The reason estiv is sing. is because Paul is lumping everything together in one shadow, not shadows.

[D. Allan]

Perhaps 'things to come' were all lumped together into one thing just as the 'shadow' was made of things lumped together. Is 'things to come' refering to Christ?

~d.allan

[olger]

Thanks TF. I appreciated your testimony. God has written His Law upon the heart of every believer, and that Law is an internal witness to the authority of God. Like you said, the Holy Spirit is the activating agent to walk in that truth.

gcw

[David Koot]

Perhaps 'things to come' were all lumped together into one thing just as the 'shadow' was made of things lumped together. Is 'things to come' refering to Christ?

Okay, present active participle neuter plural genitive. Interesting. Present tense. Louw-Nida says, of this occurrence, "a faint archetype which foreshadows a later reality" [speaking of skia also]

BAGD puts it similarly, "a foreshadowing of what is to come"

Okay, the reality is Christ, first of all. Why plural? I would think that the ministry of Christ is described, first as the Lamb of God, then inaugurating His High Priestly ministry, as Conqueror of death and the grave, and so forth. One Christ, various aspects of His ministry, which the typical system pointed forward to.

What think you of that?

Dave

[LifeHiscost]

They have twisted it so as to give the appearance of making the seventh-day Sabbath optional, a matter of personal choice, rather than God's direction.

Hope this note, from one who neither understands Greek or Hebrew, won't take the thread too far away from the original intention of twisted logic.

One can seldom lead people to Jesus, who have never known Him before, when presented with a no options discussion. It is the common error of many that makes God appear as a royal tyrant, when the commandments are presented as demandments as opposed to what you have rightfully described as directions, which if followed will bring one set of results, and which if ignored or opposed will bring decidedly different results.

Each truth discovered about God's Word will either make it easier to learn to love Him for Who He is, or it will ultimately fail in the purpose of God's allowing His truth to be discovered.

It would be interesting to learn how you gentlemen, who have obviously disciplined yourself above many others, would or do use your command of languages to fulfill Jesus' desire to save the outcasts in this land of the enemy.

"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?

And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me. " Matt 25:37-40 ASV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

But mainly with me it was a revelation by the Holy Spirit using what I had in my heart aready.

And such it always is Toothfairy. Even the men or woman who are instrumental in the discovery of truth, only provide the evidence of the seamless moving of the Holy Spirit, through the power of our Father in Heaven upon various members of the body of Christ, or even in some cases, unbelievers, that at last those who will believe may enter unhindered into the heavenly portals.

Awesome God Who is never out of control of those He knows will admit their insignificance except for the blood that has been willingly shed for the sake of the lost.

"No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day." John 6:44 ASV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

2.) Have any of you testimony of words from converted-to-Sabbath honoring (away from Sunday honoring believers) by already born-again Christians 'why' they are now honoring the Sabbath?

Having already met and subsequently following Jesus through the guidance of His Holy Spirit and the Word, the pastor who was then counseling me to submit to the Seventh day Sabbath, was deeply disappointed when his advice was not initially heeded, to recognize the sanctity of the seventh day. For some it might be different, but I have never regretted putting off the decision until I was fully satisfied in my mind that it was the Lord Jesus Who wished me to respond to that command. As it finally was heeded, never have I had doubts over difficulties arising as a result of heeding the Sabbath, for I knew the final determination was a cooperative effort between Jesus and myself. When looking back and tempted to doubt the wisdom of the choice when difficulties arose, it was easy to rest in the wisdom of God to care for my needs, knowing that no man was responsible for the decision, save the Man, Jesus Christ.

"I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them upon you or to grasp them now." John 16:12 AMP

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God..." John 7:17 KJV

Regards!

[David Koot]

It would be interesting to learn how you gentlemen, who have obviously disciplined yourself above many others, would or do use your command of languages to fulfill Jesus' desire to save the outcasts in this land of the enemy.

Certainly. I use it frequently, as the need arises. As I get to know people, and doors open to share the Word, this very passage frequently comes up. Because of my research, I am able to help them understand the Bible truth about this question. It is not typically an entry-level issue, but as studies progress, it is an important building block in the process. It is very helpful because the first-day preachers heavily rely on this very passage, actually both of them. I am able to help people be solidly grounded in the Word, so that when they are told such things by Sunday preachers, they will know the rest of the story. That helps them be more comfortable with accepting the Bible message of Seventh-day Adventists, and to respond to God's call to come out of Babylon.

Dave

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

It would be interesting to learn how you gentlemen, who have obviously disciplined yourself above many others, would or do use your command of languages to fulfill Jesus' desire to save the outcasts in this land of the enemy.

Certainly. I use it frequently, as the need arises.

It is not typically an entry-level issue, but as studies progress, it is an important building block in the process.

I am able to help people be solidly grounded in the Word, so that when they are told such things by Sunday preachers, they will know the rest of the story.

That helps them be more comfortable with accepting the Bible message of Seventh-day Adventists, and to respond to God's call to come out of Babylon.

Dave

Thank you, Dave, for your response. It does seem to me, not necessarily all of us, it is easy to forget that we Adventists have a special message for a specific time that will be most helpful in stemming despair when we run into circumstances hard to bear.

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues"

Revelation 18:4 ASV

If we all remember that each person willing to let love, as given by Jesus for the lost, are not saved by our own deeds, then a lack of knowledge will not deprive us of the assurance of salvation, but it just may cause us many problems that could have been avoided had we given heed to God's direction.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;... " 1 Cor 13:9 ASV

Blessings!

[aka]

Thanks TF. I appreciated your testimony. God has written His Law upon the heart of every believer, and that Law is an internal witness to the authority of God. Like you said, the Holy Spirit is the activating agent to walk in that truth.

gcw

smile and wave to you, gcw!

...appreciated your response

Since years and years we've both been around the same cyber places.

Pity I haven't taken more time just to chat with you.

I always believed you understood from experience what is it when God does a work of influence by His mysterious ways on our soul to clarify a 'truth'.

I sort of sense that all the debates and arguments of anyone can't, in or of itself, produce a proper spiritual 'sight' of what 'truth' of a matter is pertaining to salvation, doctrine, teachings of anything in theology.

The analogy of eyesalve, buying of Him gold and putting on of white raiment is the closest to coming in describing being actively in His salvation.

I thank God that Jesus sent the Comforter to lead us into all these moments of supernatural spiritual experience we encounter.

[aka]

At this moment I want to capitalize on LifeHC saying something up above.

I am tickled pink-to-purple with this new addition to my vocabulary chest of gems.

.....the commandments are presented as demandments as opposed to what you have rightfully described as directions...

Demandments!

Now that's a concise way of portraying religious legalism.

When one's heart and mind are in theological balance there are only the Commandments of our father God for us as precepts of guidance. When our heart is full of love we then see any of the Mose's jewish community commandments, or the Decalogue, or the NTestament commandments as rules of behavior for moral order. We respect God's authority as a charge of precept when He issues a mandate. Any injunction as guideline toward us is totally righteous. All because He is our maker and has the absolute right in exercising athority over us.

The secret lies in His attitude when giving commandments.

When we finally grasp His character attributes that motivate Him out of purity His dealings with us, we respond with willing hearts to be obedient to His commands.

We will then respond like King David....

"O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day."

Psalm 119

[olger]

http://plainlydressed.bravepages.com/germanbaptistfile.html

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Okay, present active participle neuter plural genitive. Interesting. Present tense. Louw-Nida says, of this occurrence, "a faint archetype which foreshadows a later reality" [speaking of skia also]

BAGD puts it similarly, "a foreshadowing of what is to come"

Okay, the reality is Christ, first of all. Why plural? I would think that the ministry of Christ is described, first as the Lamb of God, then inaugurating His High Priestly ministry, as Conqueror of death and the grave, and so forth. One Christ, various aspects of His ministry, which the typical system pointed forward to.

What think you of that?

I think you are right in saying, "One Christ, various aspects of His ministry...."

This study has been a real blessing to me. Sabbath morning before arising, i was just laying their 'resting' in Jesus. I was thinking, also how Paul always call the 'church' the 'body of Christ,' and that that concept of his might apply here in Col. 2:17 also. I noticed that the NIV translates the passage, 'the reality is Christ,' the greek, however is 'the body (soma) is of the Christ (or Christ's, genitive!). Reading the preceeding portions of the epistle i noticed in 1:24 this: "...his body, which is the church." 1:27 "...the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you,...." and in 2:19 Paul speaks of Christ as "the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow." Is it too silly to say that, "things to come" applies to the 'body of Christ' as His Church. And his church is carrying on His ministry. That He is working through His church in the present, which was the future with respect to the 'shadow.' As we walk the streets of our cities, we can do so with the arms of our hearts spread wide open extending forgiveness, acceptance and love to all those we meet, those whom Christ Himself would forgive, accept and love, for we are his body, the "mystery, which is Christ in" us (Col.1:27). Does the grammar support that interpretation?

[D. Allan]

Quote:

.....the commandments are presented as demandments as opposed to what you have rightfully described as directions...

LHC: demandments - I love that new word!

~d.allan

[David Koot]

Does the grammar support that interpretation?

Interesting idea, and a good thought. As for the grammar, here is what Louw-Nida says about 'soma' in 2:17: "an entity which corresponds to an archetype or foreshadowing - ‘reality, corresponding reality.’ " [Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.]

On the other hand, here is what Kittel has to say about the same occurrence! "2:17 contrasts the body of Christ with the shadow, and hence has the reality in view." [Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.]

Ha! Pick your source, huh?

Is your interpretation possible? Well, Kittel certainly seems to leave that door open. Louw-Nida, on the other hand, seem to see a different semantic domain. I think this will take some further study.

Dave