Belaboring the issue: Miracles (sigh)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't like to belabor a point - but I'm going to anyways.

In an earlier thread, I was wishing there would be more miracles - more OBVIOUS signs of God's hand in the lives of people. Yes....there are some signs, but not like there were in the OT or NT.

I have been reading John. Here's excepts from the 1st two chapters:

Quote:

1:2 Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.

33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."

"Come and see," said Philip. 47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false." 48 "How do you know me?" Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you." 49 Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel." 50 Jesus said, "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that." 51 He then added, "I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

2:11 This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.

18 Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." 20 The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.

I still do not understand why overt miracles were necessary for people to believe in Christ back at that time, when those people had the OT and prophecies, but at the same time I get told I do not need any *proof*... We have the NT and *stories* of such miracles, but it just doesn't seem the same. (No, my middle name has not been changed to *heretic*.)

I am STILL of the opinion that God can and WILL do great and astounding things for His church to lead people back. I just know it. He HAS to. Or, at least.....geez....I hope so.... I mean, I'm not asking for all the people of the Sudan to be suddenly fed with two coconuts and a bag of UncleBen's Converted Rice....

I dunno... it is frustrating to me.

[Clio]

Pam -

In the last 6 years I have seen the following miracles:

An engine block seal a 1/8th inch crack leaking coolant while the mechanic and I watched.

A vehicle travel 2+ miles, around corners, speeding up and slowing down as needed on flat roads after a part connecting the engine and transmission broke. (The wheels shouldn't have been able to turn.) Including a 3 point turn to park it conveniently in my driveway.

Fuel oil that was (apparently) bottomless during a -40 cold snap.

$6000 that was a "bank error" in my favor.

Full healing for my husband from diabetes and emphysema.

Passover Mercy for my son... in a courtroom.

Healing for my marriage in ways I never even thought to ask for because I was afraid it was impossible... since it required a choice and I was afraid free will on the part of my dh would interfere with the miracle....

A new (to me) car for free. Runs great, looks nice. Even has luxury to it... (last week even!)

The casting out of demons. (Naysayers say what you will. I know what I saw, and the changes that took place and the fruit in the life that was borne out over long term)

Items found (after thorough searches) that simply shouldn't be there.

I walk in a world filled with what many would call coincidence, but I see the hand of Abba in it. And some of it cannot possibly be coincidence. It's truly miraculous.

I am certain that as the veils between the spiritual and the carnal continue to grow thinner, and the great releasing of the side of the Adversary from beneath the Euphrates comes ever closer, we will see even more miracles.

Keep in mind, however, that miracles are not "proof" that the worker or the receiver is on the side of Abba. We are told in the end that there will be "lying wonders" that will deceive even the "very elect".

The only sure path is laid out in the Bible - to check everythingagainst the Word of Abba.

You continue to be covered in prayer by me.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Pam,

When Jesus came to this earth He had to do miracles because He was the Son of God. He had to get everyone's attention. Not that He did it for attention but that He loved people so much and wanted them to know that and how much the Father loved them. The leaders of the day painted God in an ugly picture (still goes on today) and God had to set things in order so that we would want to come to Him.

The biggest miracle is yourself. Think about where you were one or two years ago. I think all of us can say that. You could heal someone right in front of me and it would be great but if I saw a hardened sinner, like I used to be, (now I'm a softned sinner) that is a miracle!

This reply is a little different from my 1st one because I guess the 1st one wasn't meeting your needs. Here's something that I read and am not sure if anyone else shared. We are not seeing as many miracles now because there are many conterfeits. God does not want His to be mixed in with Satan's. Our healing methods will differ in this time by using natural remedies, which will teach people about God's methods of caring for the temple and clear their minds to be open for the truth that He will send them.

There was about 300 years before Jesus came to earth where there were not many messages from God or miracles. I believe that we are going through a simular time. Have no fear though miracles will come when the time is right. They are taking place now but not many here in North America.

I also believe that God's people are not ready for this. Picture this. I walk up to someone with irreverible spine damage in the hospital and tell him to get up in the name of Jesus and walk.

How would I deal with, #1. everyone in the hospital coming up to me and asking to be healed and #2. Am I ready to handle CNN, ABC, NBC, FOX, CBS, MSNBC etc.. at my door wanting interviews and wanting me to do it again.

Honestly, I could not handle that now. But if God's people do it together when God pours out the latter rain then we'll be able to handle it. So my answer is that we need to be one in spirit and untill that happens, I doubt very much that we'll see the kind of miracles Jesus did.

Norman

[Yong T Tay]

The greatest miracle Jesus ever made was He raised from the dead. This is the miracle that gives us hope. Because He lives, we too shall live.

yongttay

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Man, I am so TOTALLY not explaining myself very well.

It is not the miracles of the healings or the raising from the dead or the feeding of 1000's from a little bitty picnic lunch. I'm talking about the miracles that WERE the Holy Spirit in the NT - that WERE Christ in the OT and NT.

In Acts 2:2 it says:

Quote:

And suddenly there came from heaven a sound as of the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

THAT is the kind of miracle I'm talking about... or maybe I'm just being stupid again. It just seems to me that God is waiting to send in a mighty wind to the church, while we are all just satisfied to sit in the breeze of somebody's paper fan at campmeeting.

I'm sorrry...just so frustrated... I think I want something to happen that is not going to happen...

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Pam,

Quote:

It just seems to me that God is waiting to send in a mighty wind to the church, while we are all just satisfied to sit in the breeze of somebody's paper fan at campmeeting.

That is about it in a lot of cases.

Quote:

I'm sorrry...just so frustrated... I think I want something to happen that is not going to happen...

It will happen, but as you've noted, we are not ready. We lack unity.

Norman

[Look Alive!]

Walking in the Spirit is what brings unity. Unity is a product of being filled with the Spirit and in fellowship with others who are likewise filled. There is nothing else like it in this world! All the promises become Yes and Amen and the Word becomes a Living Reality inside that WORKS the way it "says" it is supposed to!

It is a corporate phenomenon, however. It happens when Believers come together and seek it together. And when it happens -- wow! All I can say is WOW. It is like being at a banquet together, everyone breaking the bread of life and passing it around to each other. Gives the term "agape feast" a whole new meaning.

Granted, I've only had a taste of this so I cannot speak definitively or "expertly" about it. But I can say this much: I want more.

I do not believe it (unity) is a prerequisite to getting filled. That would be like saying a result is the cause.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi LA,

Quote:

Walking in the Spirit is what brings unity.

Yes this is true. But think about the disciples before they received the Early Rain. Let me explain.

Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Joh 16:7

There must be this type of unity and then when the Spirit is given, as I was referring to here, in the form of the Latter rain, then there will be a different type of unity, and miracles. It is true that the Holy Spirit brings unity. But what I am saying is a broken heart that has been healed is what is needed. In other words, the heart ground must be broken up and prepared and the temple cleansed of pride, anger and the same things the disciples had to put away, which today grieves the Spirit. If this is not taken care of there can be no lasting unity, it will be human powered instead of Spirit powered.

This is the way Paul puts it: Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:3 KJV

(GNB) Do your best to preserve the unity which the Spirit gives by means of the peace that binds you together.

The way I read that is: do what you can to keep the unity that comes from the Holy Spirit, by being at peace with each other.

I can see two types of unity. Peace or unity with each other that comes from a broken and contrite spirit and then unity that comes from the Holy Spirit. What I am saying is that you can have the latter without the former. That is why we don't see miracles as in the days of the Early rain. The Latter rain will come when we are prepared.

Norman

[cricket]

I can see two types of unity. Peace or unity with each other that comes from a broken and contrite spirit and then unity that comes from the Holy Spirit. What I am saying is that you can have the latter without the former. That is why we don't see miracles as in the days of the Early rain. The Latter rain will come when we are prepared.

That doesn't make sense to me. Are you sure you didn't mean, that you can not have the latter without the former?

Having unity that comes from the Holy Spirit naturally yields peace or unity with each other. In other words, we can have *B* peace and unity with one another that comes from a broken and contrite spirit; or we can have *A* unity that comes from the Holy Spirit coupled with unity with each other. The latter (as referenced in the quote above) being not mutually exclusive of the former.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Cricket,

Quote:

That doesn't make sense to me. Are you sure you didn't mean, that you can not have the latter without the former?

That would be right, I missed the "out" in there.

Thanks for pointing that out

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Cricket,

Also, we can look at it this way. If a person is prideful, they will have a harder time listening to someone's suggestion then if the person is humble.

Since I mentioned 9/11 on another thread I'll use that here too. People were broken hearted on that day and pride was laid in the dust for most people, for a while. That did not mean that they had the Holy Spirit. It meant that they were ready to receive the Holy Spirit. Once they received the Holy Spirit there is a different and deeper kind of unity than the kind that came from the tragedy .

There are conditions for receiving the Holy Spirit even though it is a free gift. Also, if you read through acts, in most cases, it was groups of people who received the Holy Spirit as opposed to individuals.

When unity can be demonstrated in a group of selfish but broken and contrited people, that is prime ground for the Spirit to work in and bring a unity that is beyond what they have experienced.

Norman

[cricket]

:tu

[D. Allan]

Quote:

THAT is the kind of miracle I'm talking about... or maybe I'm just being stupid again. It just seems to me that God is waiting to send in a mighty wind to the church, while we are all just satisfied to sit in the breeze of somebody's paper fan at campmeeting.

I'm sorrry...just so frustrated... I think I want something to happen that is not going to happen...

This type of miracle still happens, Pam. I know. I'm not talking of an entire congregation, however. Just 1 or 2 people present. When it does you just can't tell everybody all about it because many won't believe it. Also some things are just too precious to relate lest they be trampled upon.

These miracles happen when a person is full of intense devotion. Intense love of God. One finds this intense type of love for Him by resting in His forgiveness and ever-present grace. Not merely intellectual agreement - that is good - but just basking in His grace. This is a type of surrender to His grace.... As the song says it is amazing! As Steps to Christ explains, we surrender our own efforts to be worthy, or to change. It is His love and grace that accomplishes everything.

[D. Allan]

Norman wrote,

Quote:

There are conditions for receiving the Holy Spirit even though it is a free gift. Also, if you read through acts, in most cases, it was groups of people who received the Holy Spirit as opposed to individuals.

For some inspiring reading on the Holy Spirit, pick up Ellen White's book, Acts of the Apostles and peruse chapts. 4 & 5. He, the Holy Spirit, is avaiable to anyone who wants Him badly enough. And we can have as much of Him as we will recieve. Here are a few quotes from that book.

"If all were willing, all would be filled with the Spirit." p.50

"In sorrow and affliction, when the outlook seems dark and the future perplexing, and we feel helpless and alone, - these are the times when, in answer to the prayer of faith, the Holy Spirit brings comfort to the heart." p.51 And WHAT wonderful comfort it is that He gives!

"The promise of the Holy Spirit is not limited to any age or to any race." p. 49

~DAllan

[D. Allan]

I should not have omitted this quote:

"To all who have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, the Holy Spirit has come as a counselor, sanctifier, guide, and witness." p.49

As Saint Paul said it, "...no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Cor.12:3 So no one need feel lacking in Spirit just because they don't see miracles. He is with you.

~Dallan

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi D.

I have read AA By EGW it's a great book. From time to time I go back and reread portions for study purposes.

Quote:

"If all were willing, all would be filled with the Spirit." p.50

Why? because it is a free gift. Why isn't everybody filled? They don't meet the condtitions. Some are rejecters of the Spirit and others don't believe and some have not asked. The conditions are not difficult.

Quote:

"The promise of the Holy Spirit is not limited to any age or to any race." p. 49

but is is available only to God's people who have met the conditions.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Trusting and believing in the good news of God's love and His salvation will result in one getting the Holy Spirit.

Also we must ask for the Holy Spirit on a daily basis if we want to be successful in spiritual life.

I don't have time to give referrences now maybe later.

Norman

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I was trying to talk about here in this thread!!!

Quote:

Norman said:

I can see two types of unity. Peace or unity with each other that comes from a broken and contrite spirit and then unity that comes from the Holy Spirit. What I am saying is that you can NOT [correction by Cricket] have the latter without the former. That is why we don't see miracles as in the days of the Early rain. The Latter rain will come when we are prepared.

and Cricket said

Having unity that comes from the Holy Spirit naturally yields peace or unity with each other. In other words, we can have *B* peace and unity with one another that comes from a broken and contrite spirit; or we can have *A* unity that comes from the Holy Spirit coupled with unity with each other.

[LifeHiscost]

In an earlier thread, I was wishing there would be more miracles - more OBVIOUS signs of God's hand in the lives of people. Yes....there are some signs, but not like there were in the OT or NT.

I'm satisfied to believe that everyone who is on the journey of faith to the kingdom of God, will ask the question(s) that they believe, if answered, will satisfy their spiritual hunger for a

glimpse of the Savior they desire to serve.

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13

ASV

God's answer to the questions can often, if not always, be as unique as the person who asks the question. This next text has been a help to me in resolving the issue of "miracles, why not now"?

"Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29 ASV

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

and Cricket said

Having unity that comes from the Holy Spirit naturally yields peace or unity with each other. In other words, we can have *B* peace and unity with one another that comes from a broken and contrite spirit; or we can have *A* unity that comes from the Holy Spirit coupled with unity with each other.

It seems also important to remember that the unity we so desperately desire does not necessarily come from those around us who appear on the surface as disciples of Jesus.

We know we are living in the adversary's domain and therefor will be in company with tares, who have an appearance of desiring the betterment of others before themselves, but inwardly are as ravening wolves.

Therefore it would seem only wise to make sure we, on an individual basis, are in unity with the Word primarily for the sake of those who are at war with themselves. Then and only then shall we have the unity that brings peace that passes understanding while influencing others to accept the unity of love even though being found in the wrong.

" Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34 NASB

"....but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you" Matthew 5:44 ASV

"I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan."

Revelation 2:9 ASV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

We are told in the end that there will be "lying wonders" that will deceive even the "very elect".

The only sure path is laid out in the Bible - to check everythingagainst the Word of Abba.

You continue to be covered in prayer by me.

While you may know, Clio, another Scripture of which I'm not aware, I believe you're referencing this one below. It seems to me the words in bold infer that it is not possible that the very elect will be deceived, although I do know a number who protest that understanding. Thoughts?

I know my own sense of assurance in Jesus is predicated on the fact that if I yield my faulty wisdom to His unfailing power, He will insure that the great deceiver cannot deceive me beyond a recognition of the Truth.

"...for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen. "

Matt 24:24 YLT

"...that no flesh should glory before God.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:

that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. " 1 Cor 1:29-31 ASV

Regards!!