Another prominent pastor caught out...

[bevin]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061104/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations

Quote:

On Friday, Haggard said that he received a massage from Jones after being referred to him by a Denver hotel, and that he bought meth for himself from the man.

But Haggard said he never had sex with Jones. And as for the drugs, "I was tempted, but I never used it," the 50-year-old Haggard told reporters from his vehicle while leaving his home with his wife and three of his five children.

Quote:

Jones also scoffed at the idea that a hotel would have sent Haggard to him.

"No concierge in Denver would have referred me," he said. He said he had advertised himself as an escort only in gay publications or on gay Web sites.

This is why I simply don't trust christian leaders of any denomination - and especially I don't trust the charasmatic look-good-on-TV types...

Why would any true Christian leader buy crystal meth?

/Bevin

[David Koot]

That is a very sad story, indeed. I suppose the old axiom about power corrupting. May God have mercy on us all! Who knows what specious temptations satan would send our way if we had the power, the wealth and the following that some of these guys do! Perhaps I should be glad that I am not in their league.

Dave

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Why would any true Christian leader buy crystal meth?

Believe it or not, members of the clergy can get addicted to drugs too. It happens little by little through compromise. He likely started doing one little thing he knew was wrong, then another, then another.

[Bravus]

I think we somehow need to find a way to account for this phenomenon, though. David might be right, it might be just a pure power thing: give *anyone* too much and they are in danger. But this is a guy who was actively sponsoring anti-gay marriage laws and pushing the White House in that direction, who was at the same time having assignations with a male prostitute. Surely Christianity itself should have some power to help people resist such temptations? I've asked this question before and never received a really satisfactory response: if rates of various kinds of abuse are about the same between Christians and non-Christians (and in the midst of these high-profile cases we need to also remember the huge majority of good, honorable and faithful Christian leaders out there), then what influence is Christianity having. To me it's not enough to simply carve off anyone who falls from Christianity (i.e. 'if they are like that they're not real Christians')... we somehow need to account for whether or not Christianity does actually change lives and hearts.

[Naomi]

Quote:

To me it's not enough to simply carve off anyone who falls from Christianity (i.e. 'if they are like that they're not real Christians')... we somehow need to account for whether or not Christianity does actually change lives and hearts.

It's much easier to talk-the-talk than to walk-the-walk.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely...this could account for so many public figures, and not just in the Christian community, thinking they can be one person in public and a different one in private.

I agree with David, I think I am better off being a poor country girl.

I really don't think it's important for us to account for whether or not Christianity changes lives and hearts. Only our Lord knows the truth of the heart of an individual. What we see are the actions ... peopled can change. They can be strong believers and "backslide". IMHO that is why "once saved, always saved" isn't valid. It's by daily connection that we stay connected to our Heavenly Father.

[olger]

God is in the business of changing lives, and is doing so in spite of modern doubt.

Each of us struggle with pride. It is what caused sin to enter our universe. Our challenge each morning is to answer the question "Can I save myself, or do I need a Savior?" The right answer to that question will bring freedom into our lives-freedom from moral failure, rebellion, hypocrisy etc...

Many pastors struggle with pornography (more than you realize). Through Jesus, we can be pure and free from the devil's snare.

Another reason that there is defeat in the church, is that many people try to resolve heart issues intellectually. That never works. Jesus said whatever was in the heart would come out of a person. The solution is to acknowledge moral failure and repent from the heart. God will forgive and bring healing.

What God may not do however, is remove all of the consequences that a wrong act caused. We learned this in the life of David. When we sin morally, we set in motion a train of consequences that we soon lose control over, nor matter how sorry we may become.

This pastor should step down permanently (I believe this is what just happened via the board). He should seek God's healing and forgiveness, and leave the public ministry to others. There is hope.

Proverbs 6:33 says that he who sins sexually will not have his reproach blotted out. People will always remember. When I say the names Swaggart & Baker what do you think of? Of course. No one remembers the good that these men did in their ministry, they only remember the scandals.

It is time for the church to address these issues openly and lead our members to purity & freedom. God is in the business of changing lives.

olger

"And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him."

[Bravus]

Amen

[Stan]

This seems to be a water cooler conversation wherever I go, not sure which i find more disgusting,

the fact the he did what he did, (If he did all that is claimed)

or

the fact that so many rejoice over seeing another person fall.

We are all sinners, some have got caught, most of us have not.

[Naomi]

Quote:

We are all sinners, some have got caught, most of us have not.

Amen

[Dr. Shane]

The day is coming when we will all be caught - like a deer in headlights. Our only hope is the blood of the Lamb.

[bevin]

There are two lessons for us all in this

(a) don't trust human leaders, especially those who act squeaky clean

( don't do things in private that you are not prepared to openly admit that you do

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

Billy Graham told the story of when he was in a hospital and thought to be on his death bed. He didn't pray, Oh God remember me and what a great preacher I have been. He prayed, Oh Lord have mercy on this sinner.

[John317]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061104/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations

Quote:

On Friday, Haggard said that he received a massage from Jones after being referred to him by a Denver hotel, and that he bought meth for himself from the man.

But Haggard said he never had sex with Jones. And as for the drugs, "I was tempted, but I never used it," the 50-year-old Haggard told reporters from his vehicle while leaving his home with his wife and three of his five children.

Quote:

Jones also scoffed at the idea that a hotel would have sent Haggard to him.

"No concierge in Denver would have referred me," he said. He said he had advertised himself as an escort only in gay publications or on gay Web sites.

This is why I simply don't trust christian leaders of any denomination - and especially I don't trust the charasmatic look-good-on-TV types...

Why would any true Christian leader buy crystal meth?

/Bevin

I've heard on the news just the last few hours that he's admitted that he had sex with an "escort" and that he used drugs.

I'm disappointed, yes, but I am neither surprised nor shocked. It happens more often than most people realize.

However, it's unforunate for anyone to think that all Christian leaders are doing what he did or that nobody can be trusted. Of course there are ministers and pastors who "fall" and some who aren't even converted. But that is all the more reason we need to pray in a special way, and continually, for our leaders, because Satan comes to them with great temptations and he knows exactly what their weaknesses are. He also knows that when he gets Christian leaders to fall, it can affect the faith of millions. It is no reason to think, however, that we should not trust anyone. There are many good people in leadership positions who do not do those things and who are really consecrated to God and His work. But we need to keep our eyes on Jesus and not people-- who, after all, will always disappoint you somewhere along the line. Jesus, though, never disappoints and is always faithful and trustworthy.

[Gail]

Well said.

I've always had a soft spot for leaders and the lack of help offered them with the rough times come round, especially if they happen in their weak moments and were their own doing.

I don't have the answers, as a "caught" sinner probably gets much more advice than they need at the moment

Just a sadness...

[bevin]

Quote:

However, it's unforunate for anyone to think that all Christian leaders are doing what he did or that nobody can be trusted.

I did not say that they were all doing it.

The list of big-name evangelists that have been "caught" in similar circumstances is, however, impressively long.

Good leaders welcome criticism, and have testable facts and analyses to back up what they are suggesting as path. They don't need to be trusted - because everything they do is open.

Bad leaders say "believe it because I said it". Historically trusting such people is bad for you and bad for them.

/Bevin

[Naomi]

Yes John317 and Gail ... I agree. Somehow people seem to receive some sort of pleasure from seeing leaders stumble and fall.

You made a good point Gail, they receive too little help when they need it most. Does this speak more about their being "caught" or the people who "judge" them as forever guilty?

[Gerr]

If you are very publicly vocal condemning other people's sins, they will surely rejoice over yours or your downfall.

Gerry

[aldona]

And it often seems to be the case that the sins that a preacher most vocally and repeatedly condemns in others are the dark and hidden aspects of themselves that they cannot deal with...

How many times have we seen preachers become famous for loudly and repeatedly condemning sexual immorality and promoting "family values", only to fall from their position of influence because of...sexual immorality and betrayal of their families.

There is a lay preacher (name and all other details kept confidential) who has been a guest speaker at our church six times in the past year. And on every one of those six occasions, he prefaced his sermon (on various topics such as grace, righteousness by faith, end time events and evangelism) with a lengthy and forceful preamble soundly condemning homosexuality.

By the 4th or 5th time, the audience knew what to expect - I would turn to my husband as the speaker approached the pulpit and say "I know what he's going to talk about - 'Why We Hate Gays And They Are The Reason The World Is In Such A Mess' followed by something really good from the Bible."

And even in completely unrelated discussions in Sabbath School or private conversations after the sermon, he would always work in a tirade against homosexuals.

I wonder what a psychologist would make of this...

aldona

[Dr. Shane]

Didn't Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah and John the Baptist publically condemn sin? Were they hiding something?

[aldona]

Of course all of the prophets condemned various sins at various times and places...

But when one person keeps condemning the same one sin, over and over, everywhere he goes and in every group of people he mixes with, regardless whether it is relevant to them or not (mostly when there are no known members practicing that sin in the congregation), and even when it makes no sense in relation to the rest of his sermon, then after the first few times you start wondering.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh...

aldona

[Neil D]

Quote:

But when one person keeps condemning the same one sin, over and over, everywhere he goes and in every group of people he mixes with, regardless whether it is relevant to them or not (mostly when there are no known members practicing that sin in the congregation), and even when it makes no sense in relation to the rest of his sermon, then after the first few times you start wondering.

Let me guess...you come to the conclusion that either the person is

1]secretly practicing the very thing he is preaching against [and thus knows that it is wrong]

2] or very prejudicial against the very thing he preaches against [to which he either disgusts it, or is envious of it]

and the congregation is listening to these words as if they are from God....[sigh] The previous sentence is a rhetorical sentence, but nevertheless, a true statement. And a scary one at that.

What the public doesn't realize is that preacher/pastors are forced to live 2 lives. One of the public and one of private. Very few pastors live only one life, where both private and public lives merge as one... I call this rare lifestyle the "what you see is what you get" in a pastor and very very few pastors are able to live thier lives like that. The pressures from thier congregations to live up to the doctrines and mores of the pastoriate are tremendous. And yet, the congregation still demands this type of life......What type of person can live this type of life for 20-30 years??? And yet, we set the pastor up to fail...or become warped....

That is why we need to support the pastor, in many areas of thier lives. They also need to understand that thier congragation understands them and supports them....in many areas of thier lives, ie thier marriage, their children, even the changing of jobs [leaving the pastoriate] if they choose to do so.

Ok, just my $0.02 worth of

[Dr. Shane]

A pastor that is always condemning doesn't sound well-balanced. I have never met one like that. Billy Graham has done his share of publically condemning sin - even specific sins, but he is mostly known for preaching about grace and love.