Saved or Not Saved? Is it a Revolving Door?

[David Koot]

In the chatroom this morning, the question arose whether a person is "saved" or not. How about it? If a person willfully sins, does that mean that he or she is not 'saved'?

[Robert]

Let's let Paul define willful sin and its consequences:

Heb 6:4 "...Those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."

Here Paul is warning us that if we "fall away" that it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to reach us because we have hardened our hearts to the point that our consciences are dead. The Bible calls this willful sin the unpardonable sin.

Go to Hebrews 10:19 Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near.

26 For if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

When you became a Christian, what did you receive? Christ and His righteousness! Christ is "the truth"! His sacrifice is what saves you from your sins. If you reject Him you are willfully committing apostasy - you are in the process of hardening your heart!

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified*, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God

* Heb 10:9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Thy will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified [set apart].

[Robert]

John 16:8 When He comes [the HS], He will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

In the Holy history of Christ the world has been saved by His doing and dying. The Holy Spirit brings this home to "every" man! Those who reject the HS (concerning sin) are lost eternally!!! This is the unpardonable sin.

You see there are those who have backslidden...they still believe in Christ, yet they have become immature Christians. They have become carnal Christians in the sense they are giving into the flesh more than they did at one time. But they have not hardened their hearts to Jesus and therefore they have not committed apostasy. So we must make a distinction between backsliding and rejecting Christ. The latter is willful sin!

[mrs.rabbi]

~Shalom~

Regarding the question of willful sin*

King David prayed in Pslams *L-rd keep me from willful sin*

Grace is not a cheap gift; it was offerred at the ultimate price.

IF one PLANS to SIN it is NOT a Mistake! Willful is defined as *with intent*

INTENT in assault is determinable as per EACH circumstance of *intent* NOT as a generalised MISTAKE.

If one has developed a taste for the lie, then the truth is not yet the meal that you crave, UNLESS you walk away from the lie, and embrace the truth.

G-d's Grace provides for the *covering of Love* the shelter of His holy intent of prayer to BLESS us in the secret place of prayer under HIS tallit= prayer shawl.

*The Justice of G-d helps us to find value in the unexplained*

Because of His Mercy, Redemption is possible and the passage: *deliver me from evil* takes on a credible position of reality for the truely well intentioned.

*There IS hope of tree if it is cut down that IF it is within he scent of water that it will sprout again*

Adam blamed G-d in Genesis saying *The woman that YOU gave me....caused me to ...*

Talk about dodgeball!

Mercifully G-d swept the garden clean with His distain.

Man had developed a taste for diobedience and blame.

Would fresh manna EVER be a welcome aroma?

Blood had not yet been spilled..no death ..no sickness of disease.

The innocence of Creation was spoiled.

Pain was not a consideration UNTIL a willful choice to disobey was acted upon.

You ask *is this a revolving door issue?

Salvation is predicated line upon line... process.

Have you EVER been caught in a revolving door? I have!

Leaving a large bank building in a Canadadian province at rush hour I was stuck between the edge of the partitioned glass and of the chamber..Still a difficult fit for a size six lady. Needless it proved to be a vlaued lesson for me.

Yes I still frequent banks though not at rush hour AND I do NOT bank where there are revolving doors!

IF your belief system has even one set of revolving doors this should be a red flag to your spirit.

G-d cares too much to invest in revolving doors; he carries our hearts and lives with delight and determines a specific

watch-care over us each.

Sincerely,CJ*mrs.rabbi*

ClearJewel/HealthyHebrew

HealthyHebrew@teachfitness.com

[Look Alive!]

(tacking on, not answering anyone specifically)

If a person is still capable of responding to the still small voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to their heart or conscience, and still capable of seeking a redemptive relationship with Jesus Christ, they are not in any condition that gives any of us any right to proclaim their "probation" closed or the door of God's mercy shut to them -- PERIOD -- REGARDLESS of what they have done.

God is powerful and able to save even the worst of sinners. And if any of us imagine ourselves more righteous than those we deem the "worst", we might want to examine ourselves and our own hearts to see if, indeed, we really grasp the Truth as it is in Jesus. BY THE WAY and for the record, when I say God is powerful to save, I DO mean save FROM sin not IN sin -- in case anyone is wondering or thinks I believe otherwise. Part of the salvation experience is receiving a new heart and new spirit which desires to please God.

We must also be careful to draw a distinction between what a person's actual sins really are (what the Holy Spirit convicts them about, some of which we may not see and others of which we may think we see but don't see as God sees) versus what we imagine or think we perceive their sins to be. The two are not always the same.

Basically I'm uncomfortable with anything that acts as an invitation or temptation to judge another person's condition or standing in Christ. What is needed for ME is to make sure MY heart is right with God. What is needed for YOU (any "you" reading this) is to make sure YOUR heart is right with God. If we both have the Holy Spirit we will experience fellowship one with another as we walk in the Light as HE is in the Light. As the Holy Spirit manifests spiritual gifts in our lives we minister to one another and bear witness to the Gospel of the Kingdom -- then those who are not saved will be won and those already saved will rejoice with us and minister back to us from the gifts they have received and the roles to which they have been called.

If it's a matter of using good judgment concerning someone else's IDEAS? -- we can decide whether or not we agree with the CONTENT of those ideas (or whether or not those ideas harmonise with the Bible) without needing to resort to negative judgment on a fellow Believer if we disagree or think they are wrong about something. Right now in this world, "We all know IN PART and we prophesy IN PART" so yes, occasionally we won't see things exactly the same. But if we are Believers in Him we CAN still fellowship in the unity of the Holy Spirit, united by our mutual embracing of HIM (Jesus) as our Lord and saviour!! AMEN!!! And if we think a brother is wrong about anything, we can share our position/understanding on the matter and pray the Spirit guides them into all truth. (BUT if he doesn't immediately agree with us we should not judge or reject him as a fellow BELIEVER.) Anything pushier than this comes from the flesh and will create a hindrance by provoking flesh-reaction in them. I am keenly, sorely aware of how often God's Word is rejected because someone does not "like" the messenger personally. What a shame. I know I want to do my part to submit to Jesus' Love and repair those kinds of errors in my life.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi David,

Quote:

In the chatroom this morning, the question arose whether a person is "saved" or not. How about it? If a person willfully sins, does that mean that he or she is not 'saved'?

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

This really doesn't define what the sin is, but it let's us know that there is a sin that can be forgiven and there is one that well, leads to death. Of course you know that this is referring to the 2nd death.

---------------------------------------

Rob also quote these verses, I just want to add to them.

Heb 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

The context of Hebrews is The validity of Jesus Christ (God in the flesh) as our High Priest, after the order of Melchizedek and the certainty of the new covenant and the heavenly sanctuary.

When Paul says, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened........

He is saying that the Jews who have accepted the Christ as their sacrifice and have received the Holy Spirit and experienced the world to come, (the peace, power and love of God,) for them to now turn back to animal sacrifices would be to basically cut themselves off. They would be going back to dead works which can never change the conscience of those who offer the sacrifices.

He is not talking about sinning one time and then God says, "That's it, you've crossed the line after I have showed you so much love" There is context to this.

Heb 6:7 "For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briars is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Here Paul is giving a parable to further explain what he means. He is saying that this is an on going process. Just as the Holy Spirit is not just taken away everytime we sin. It takes time, like the rain falling and then whatever is produced will determine what will be done with the fruit. Vegetables to be eaten of thorns to be burned.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Paul has written these words to clear up any misconceptions that might exist. "For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love" He is telling them and us that God will not cast you off for one sin, He knows our hearts and our direction. He knows that we are but dust. Obviously after discribing what happens to those who willfully reject Christ and return to animal sacrifces, he is not sanctioning a "don't worry about sin" mindset.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

In this quote he is basically repeating His warning but adding clarity. He is saying, "if you think there was severe punshment for treating the old covenant sacrifices with disrepect, how much more worse do you think the punishment will be when you treat the Sacrifice God, His ONLY Son with disrespect?

Heb 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

Intrepretation?

Those who apply Christ's sacrifice (The just), will live by faith (the faith of Jesus) but if any man draw back: Draw back where? To using the old covenant sacrifices for justification; God will have no pleasure in them. Why? How can one insult God more than to reject His perfect sacrifice, (His Son) and go back to an inferior system of death, which cannot bring life to those who offer such. These sacrifices were meant to teach what Christ Jesus would do and how the true sanctuary would be the WAY. Thy way oh God is in the sanctuary.

A one time willfull sin can not cause a person to be lost. Not without prior repeated willfull rejection of God's mercy and warnings.

Norman

[David Koot]

Mrs. Rabbi said:

Quote:

IF one PLANS to SIN it is NOT a Mistake! Willful is defined as *with intent.

If we use that as the definition, then I submit that most if not all of us--myself included, commit wilful sins. Here is the $64,000. question: Does that mean that we (those of us who do so) have not been saved? Are you suggesting, Frau, that we fall in and out of salvation, depending on whether or not we willfully sin on a given day? Or have we simply not been 'saved' yet?

As for the desire to sin . . . yeah, I still have some of them critters--and, sad to say, I give into those desires at times. Does THAT mean that I have not been saved?

Dave

[mrs.rabbi]

~Shalom~

*Regarding YOUR -64cent question after the Canadian exchange rate* of course:

Yes many people do commit willful sin. This does NOT give ANYONE the license to purposefully transgress.

It DOES mean that the longer a person *CHOOSES* to sin the heart becomes hardened AGAINST G-d and His Perfect WORD.

When a pair of work gloves get old and crusted with mud these become less comfortable and they become and these are far less likley to be called into service and worn for the job they were first intented.

It is the same with the sin hardened heart of theose who profess to follow the living G-d and His Redeemer.

Sincerely,CJ*mrs.rabbi*

ClearJewel/HealthyHebrew

HealthyHebrew@teachfitness.com

[David Koot]

Yes many people do commit willful sin. This does NOT give ANYONE the license to purposefully transgress.

True enough. But your post did not address the specific question: if a person who believes in Jesus and has accepted Jesus as his or her Savior, DOES commit willful sin, does that mean that he or she is not saved-either temporarily, or not at all?

[mrs.rabbi]

~Shalom~

Have we forgotten GRACE? For by GRACE we are saved; it can be said that the question was throughly answered in accordance with with the itemization of what was asked as was presented to me.

When I take the time to fast and pray before answering ANY inquiry I expect the Presence Of G-d to atend; it is NOT my will I place on paper.

Without hesitation I seek to run the good race; IF you see your brothr in transgression then you correct them so as to save their should from destruction.

*Process is not to be confused with EXCUSE*

The Advocate we have with The Father IS Jesus/Yahoshua.

We are not to *trample the Grace of G-d underfoot*

This same reference is mentioned regarding being trampled underfeet of *pigs*

Gentiles were sometimes referred to as such as being for that time quite the insult.

IF grace is the gift that accompanies faith to he alter/mercy seat how then can one shirk the awesome surety of

G-d's provisional Grace?

Scripture is replete withexhortation NOT to be again entangled with the yoke of bondage.

Are you seeking to BE care-worn? Have you laid down YOUR futility to embrace the puposes and goals that G-d has set before you?

We cannot complete the task of Salvatio n alone. There are specific laws which predicate the act of redemption of the first born

We are considered first-fruits. When the owner of the land retuns what will He find concerning YOU?

Have you fallen into slumber and become complacent?

NO revolving doors in Heaven!

G-d says our yes SHOULD be yes;our NO should BE our no.

G-d has the door of *Truth* through which everyone must travel.

The Salvation Of our g is near to the hour!

Oh what a fore taste of glory divine!

Great Is His Faithfulness!

Sincerely,CJ*mrs.rabbi*

ClearJewel/HealthyHebrew@teachfitness.com

[Gerr]

Just tagging on.

When a sinner truly believes & puts his trust in the One who alone is righteous, his/her name is written in the Book of Life. Confirmation of that salvation or the decision to erase it does not take place until that person dies or the name comes up for judgment. Therefore, there can be no yo-yo salvation/perdition. In general then, it is the trend of a person's life. Of course, it is possible to have a death-bed or thief-on-the-Cross-like repentance or last minute turning away from Christ.

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gerry,

I think of Peter, not only did he reject Christ but he was told that he would do so. There was no missing the mark there. Although the words Christ's warning did not dawn on him while he was denying Christ, he knew that he was doing wrong and did it anyway.

That is the wonder of God, He forgives willful sin. Continual wilfull sin and not caring about it will damage our ability to repent. There is the danger.

God does not look at us as saved when we don't sin and lost when we do. As you have said, it is the trend of the life, what is in the heart. What is the fruit?

Norman

[Robert]

He forgives willful sin. Continual wilfull sin and not caring about it will damage our ability to repent. There is the danger.

Right on the mark!