Islam vs the Bible

[Guest]

I would be interested in getting opinions/ideas from others here on the differences between the Koran & the Bible.

I believe the Koran does teach that it is OK to kill in the name of religion, but that many peace-loving Muslims would never consider to adopt those texts from the Koran, into actual belief or practice. I will post some of these texts in my next post.

I have looked at a number of different takes on this; and am inviting those who are interested in serious study on this to take part here.

The idea was put to me the other day that all those "nasty" verses in the Koran are not what some Christians try to say; in fact, the Bible is just as bad as the Koran for promoting "buthery" in the name of religion.

Here is one of several texts used by this person to say that the Bible is in the same bracket as the Koran, for promoting killing in the name of religion:

Quote:

Lev. 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

10 ¶ And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

11 And the man that lieth with his father’s wife hath uncovered his father’s nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Now, I did actually take vs.9 above, and read it to my children for part of our worship last Sabbath.

We could start this study with several questions.

1/ What do you think my kids said/did when they heard this Bible text? What would your kids say?

2/ How should we, as Christians, approach this subject, and reconcile such texts in the Bible with basic concepts such as "God is just?" There are actually a few texts, worse than this in the Bible. What are we to say to people about them? How do they fit in with the "gospel?"

3/ Is Lev.20 vs 9 a good idea for today, to control juvenile delinquency? Would this make a good Young Offender's Act?

We can look at other texts in future posts. :)

[John317]

I would be interested in getting opinions/ideas from others here on the differences between the Koran & the Bible.

I believe the Koran does teach that it is OK to kill in the name of religion, but that many peace-loving Muslims would never consider to adopt those texts from the Koran, into actual belief or practice. I will post some of these texts in my next post.

You're right about what the Koran teaches on killing. You are also right about many Muslims never considering personally killing anyone, but virtually all believe that it is OK under some circumstances to kill in the name of their religion.

I have very close Muslim friends from Afghanistan who would never kill anyone for religious purposes, but they support others who do it. It is one reason you almost never hear Muslims condemning the fundamentalist Muslims, or Islamists. Sure, fear of the extremists is one other reason for the silence, but it is also true that there is more agreement with them in the Muslim community than perhaps you would imagine.

The West is living in a dream world of denial if it doesn't realize that Islam is out to conquer it. Why? Because if the West does not become largely Muslim, it is considered as an affront to Islam and is proof that Islam is a false religion, because Islam predicts that the whole world will one day be Muslim or under its domination.

Quote:

I have looked at a number of different takes on this; and am inviting those who are interested in serious study on this to take part here.

The idea was put to me the other day that all those "nasty" verses in the Koran are not what some Christians try to say; in fact, the Bible is just as bad as the Koran for promoting "buthery" in the name of religion.

The difference is a matter of context, which makes all the difference in the world. It's like all the pictures of sex organs and bloody bodies in medical text books. If you take those pictures out of the text, ie., context, which is all about healing, you can get the wrong idea about the pictures. You might even think some of them are pornographic. Therefore you have to take the context into consideration.

What is the context when it comes to the Bible and the Koran? In the Bible, the context has to do with God's personal leading in the Old Testament at a time when He was establishing Israel in the midst of some very evil nations that had rejected Him and, under Satan's inspiration, were bent on destroying the people through whom the Messiah was to come. The context is also that when Jesus came, He showed that killing in the name of our faith is never acceptable. The Sermon on the Mount is the law of the Kingdom of God, not an "eye for an eye". The New Testament commands us Christians to love our enemy and to do good to those who hate us. That is the context of Christianity. It would be wrong to say that the context is the Old Testament references to killing because it is obvious that God gave us a new way under the New Covenant.

The context of the Koran is what it has always been, killing your enemy unless he submits to Allah. It hasn't changed and never will change, because unlike the New Testament, the Koran contains no prophecy of a time when Muslim will not be required to kill the enemies of Allah. (The Koran says Muslims should allow Jews and Christians freedom of worship as long as they submit to Muslim rule, but if they rebel against Muslim rule, they are to be killed.)

I suggest you read the Koran several times if you have not already done so. There are several good translations online.

Quote:

On the other hand, the Koran does not teach a philosophy of the necess

Here is one of several texts used by this person to say that the Bible is in the same bracket as the Koran, for promoting killing in the name of religion:

Quote:

Lev. 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

10 ¶ And the man that committeth adultery with another man?s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour?s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

11 And the man that lieth with his father?s wife hath uncovered his father?s nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Now, I did actually take vs.9 above, and read it to my children for part of our worship last Sabbath.

We could start this study with several questions.

1/ What do you think my kids said/did when they heard this Bible text? What would your kids say?

I think the best way to approach a discussion of verse 9 is to talk about the importance that God places on children obeying and honoring their parents. Talk about how the New Testament approaches the same issue, which is with a promise from God to bless those who obey the 5th commandment.

Remember that today our culture is more likely to put a parent in jail for spanking their children and the courts wouldn't think of punishing children in any way for "mere" disrepect, disobedience or rebellion against a parent. More likely they would blame the parents and say they are not doing enough of what the child wants. The state apparently does not see the relationship between rebellion against parents and rebellion against society. The court would not submit to a child's rebellion and disobedience but it expects the parents to put up with it for years.

I work with juvenile delinquents who talk terribly to their parents, calling their mother's the b-word and even threatening to kill them. These children would call you the b-word too if you told them about the commandment to obey. They are good examples of many kids today. They see disrespect towards parents dozens of time every day on TV. For them it's something to laugh about, as it is on most sitcoms. So today's kids by and large see the commandment to kill children who rebel against their parents as a very harsh law that is just simply ridiculous and really only shows how bad and unreasonable God is. They don't see it for what it really was, as all of His law is, God's wall of protection around the home and society. It's significant that God gave this law when the children of Israel were coming out of generations of slavery and had respect only for power and brute force. If the commandments were not backed up with immediate and even brutal punishment, the people did not seem to get the message that God was in earnest and meant what He said.

Quote:

2/ How should we, as Christians, approach this subject, and reconcile such texts in the Bible with basic concepts such as "God is just?" There are actually a few texts, worse than this in the Bible. What are we to say to people about them? How do they fit in with the "gospel?"

3/ Is Lev.20 vs 9 a good idea for today, to control juvenile delinquency? Would this make a good Young Offender's Act?

We can look at other texts in future posts.

See above for my answers to some of your questions here.

It's necessary to remember that such laws were instituted by God as a measure of last resort because of the disobedience of the people after He gave the commandments at Sinai.

It is not what God would have us do today, though, even if our society would permit it. How do we know? Again, because of what Jesus said to His followers in the New Testament. However, that applies to His followers and not to governments. There are times and conditions when modern govenments have had to put in place some laws that appear harsh by Western standards and enforce them strictly in order to bring about law and order. We call it martial law, and it comes in during times of emergency. Remember that there have been times in the past when God had an emergency to deal with. One such was when Israel was coming out of Egypt.

[Gerr]

I would be interested in getting opinions/ideas from others here on the differences between the Koran & the Bible.

When I read the Koran, I find it boring and can't read it for extended periods like I could with the Bible. I realize it's very subjective, but I find the Bible speaks to my heart and the Koran does not.

Gerry

[D. Allan]

Quote:

1/ What do you think my kids said/did when they heard this Bible text? What would your kids say?

If you didn't soften the blow with explantions they may have ran to their rooms and started packing.:-O In their hearts they would have remembered all the times that you showed themno respect for their individuality as a seperate person. (If that ever were the case.)

~d.allan

[Guest]

Quote:

1/ What do you think my kids said/did when they heard this Bible text? What would your kids say?

If you didn't soften the blow with explantions they may have ran to their rooms and started packing.:-O In their hearts they would have remembered all the times that you showed themno respect for their individuality as a seperate person. (If that ever were the case.)

~d.allan

Thanks for all the replies everyone. When I read that text from the Bible to my kids; they did look at me sideways; but the oldest (14 yrs old) just matter of factly said: "God said that as in the sense of He knew that if the children were disrespectful to their parents, that the people (prompted by religious leaders) of the time would in fact kill them."

They went on to say that this did not mean that God actually condoned the penalty; he simply knew that's what would happen and was saying this text, therefore, more as a warning. I did not prompt any of this out of them; they just came up with it themselves.

To me; it is interesting to note the total lack of confusion in kids over this kind of issue; but it is much different for adults. Hmmm. I wonder. Could it be that kids can read the Bible better than "us?"

I have to go for now; but will be back - there is more to say...:)

[Guest]

I also wanted to include these texts from the Koran, FYI

Surah II: 98 – “Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.”

Surah II: 191-193 – “Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them….Fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah.”

Surah II: 216 – “Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.”

Surah III: 19 – “Surely the true religion with Allah is Islam…and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.”

Surah IV: 104 – “Be not weak in pursuit of the enemy.”

Surah V: 51 – “O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whosoever among you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.”

Surah VIII: 12 – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.”

Surah VIII: 15-17 – “O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, turn not your backs to them. Whoever shall turn his back to them on that day – unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company – then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah’s wrath, and his abode is hell… So you did not slay them, but it was Allah who slew them…that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.”

Surah IX: 29 – “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth… until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”

Surah IX:33 – “[Allah] it is who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though polytheists may be averse.”

Surah IX: 73 – “O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is their destination.”

Surah IX: 123 – “O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in your hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).”

Now we have more basis to ask: "What is the difference between this text from the Koran; and the above text from the Bible?"

[Guest]