The Papacy Should Not Be Our Main Focus

[Challenger]

I open this topic with the following post from Stan, taken from the topic, “Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing.”

Stan said: "I appreciate your concern here; but I also have a concern. There are some of us here (me for one) that consider ourselves practicing Adventists; but others consider us wolves in sheep's clothing. It's mostly because I question the infallibility of EGW and certain SDA interpretations of prophecy. Yet, as I read them, I conform to all 28 pillars of faith. What constitutes a "practicing Adventist" - church attendance, sinlessness, doctrinal purity, all of the above? I'm a little sensitive to this; cuz a member of this forum called me out in public as a wolf in sheep's clothing a while back."

I quoted Stan’s post because, we seem to be passengers on the same boat. He has conveyed my own feelings based on over three decades of trying to get SDA leadership and laity to consider progressive truths. F.Y.I. I have been an Adventists for forty one years now, still an active member to this day.  Wife and I studied out way into the church by way of the Dan., and Rev., seminars. 

It was our interest in end time prophecy and an invitation from our Adventists friends that got us to attend the Rev., seminar. Since those early years I have come to understand that my spiritual gift is the study of apocalyptic prophecy. Thus I always have this desire to share what I believe the Holy Spirit has revealed to me. 

I appreciate this platform in which I can share. To go beyond what Stan has expressed based on my personal experience, I believe our church has been so focused on the papacy within apocalyptic prophecy since our beginning that we have taken on a bit of it’s very nature. (By beholding we become changed) As in the days of early reformers, including Martin Luther, the papacy would not entertain in the least manner to even consider written dialogue, personal study, or oral discussion, of any grievances put forth by the reformers. Their only interest was for the reformers to recant, or else the stake to silence the messenger. Fortunately, today the latter is not permissible. In my case I have been told to stop promoting such teachings or leave the church. Not once has any pastor or elder offered to study with me to show me my error. On the other hand if an outsider were to express an interest in knowing about our beliefs, pastors themselves would be quick to make themselves available for bible studies. 

Do I believe E. G. White was a prophetess, yes. Do I believe she was subject to error, yes. And she herself was fearful that many would take every word she spoke, or wrote, as a “thus saith the Lord,”  which they were not. She new progressive truths would be forth coming according to God’s timing and that we (including herself) most not be like the Jewish leaders, closed minded and unwilling to move with the new light God would continue too show us. We are all aware she strongly informed us that we must make, “the Bible and Bible only as our standard of faith.”  So please, if you disagree with my reasoning please use scripture only in support of your position. 

A I mentioned earlier, I believe our church has been to obsessed with the papacy in closing events. I believe we have rightfully identified the “little horn power” of Dan.7, as the papacy, however,  the papacy is never mentioned again until (Rev. 13:1-3). In that prophecy the papacy is symbolic of the,” head that seem to have had a fatal wound but was healed, “ when the beast comes up out of the sea. (I’ll address that in a latter post). 

My first objective following this post is to share what I consider the correct  identity of the horn power of Dan. 8. The misinterpretation started early expositors  down the wrong path, which we have excepted, thus teach that this prophecy expands the endeavors of the little horn of Dan. 7. I believe it is the first prophecy to introduce Satan, as the man of sin, the man of lawlessness, thee ANTICHRIST, who will appear in human form on earth in the latter days of the tribulation. 

Whom should we fear most, the papacy or Satan and his angles appearance? Which one of these teachings would Satan most likely lead christians to believe?

If my understanding is correct, Mrs. White understood that Satan and his angles would appear in human flesh on earth in closing events, but without biblical support.(Please correct me if I’m wrong on this) Why? Because the prophecies pointing to Satan appearance early expositors interpret as the papacy. This needs to be corrected, but the church is unwilling to even consider the possibility, since Mrs. White, endorsed those early interpretations in the G.C. As Adventists most are now held prisoners by Mrs. Whites statements. Not willing to even consider the possibility that she could have been wrong. (Isn’t that the same mind set of the Catholic Church?)

Even though I will share biblical proof that she was mistaken in her understanding, few of you, if any, will have the courage to put your faith in the bible only as your rule of faith. If so, does it not show you place her writings above the bible contrary too what she taught?

However, with God’s help all things are possible, and He can free anyone from mental imprisonment by a renewing of the mind. But we must first pray for a child like spirit of humility, putting aside our pride and arrogance, ask for a opened mind allowing the Holy Spirit to speak, disscernent to process what the Spirit reveals, and courage to put our faith in what the bible teaches.

 I will share three prophecies that expose Satan and His plans to take the world captive in closing events. And yes, he will use the papacy and others to prepare the world to receive him according to God’s timing. 

I will end this post with a “natural law” that God built in apocalyptic prophecy which earlier expositors were unawares. It has been  followed in the three prophecies I will share. But I’m introducing it now, for your consideration.  

This rule is stated as follows: “Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning point in time, an ending point in time and the events within each prophecy occur in the order given.”

This rule is deceptively simple and it demolishes two thousand years of prophetic speculation and tradition. Please give the following sentence a full five seconds of serious thought because the ramifications are huge: God has declared the order of events within each apocalyptic prophecy – if this is not the case, there is no way to determine chronological order within apocalyptic prophecy. If God has declared the order of events within each apocalyptic prophecy, the Bible will say the same thing to everyone – just as it reads. If God has declared chronological order, there is prophetic certainty instead of endless chaos and cancelling views. On the other hand, if God has not declared chronological order, everyone is permitted to define and create a prophetic order that accommodates his or her religious baggage. In fact, we see this process throughout Christianity today and the result is that there is no general agreement among Christians on the next prophetic event!

To resolve this problem, some church groups turn to external authority. This authority can be a founding father, a prophet or even church tradition. There is a simple test that determines if a person uses external authority. Present the Word of God and notice the result. Jesus did this and He was considered a blasphemer because the Jews exalted religious traditions above the Word of God! (See Mark 7:8,9.)

If God has not declared chronological order in the books of Daniel and Revelation, it becomes impossible to factually determine the next prophetic event. On the other hand, if there is chronological order we can determine what comes next. We have had twenty six centuries of prophetic sequence since the book of Daniel was written.  Looking backwards from our day, the book of Daniel proves there is chronological order and the result is truly astonishing. This is good news because the final generation can know and understand a number of prophetic truths that previous generations could not discover! Remember, God’s greatest gift to the honest in heart is greater truth. During the Great Tribulation God will separate the honest in heart (His sheep) from those who worship tradition (the goats) through greater truth!

It most likely will take a least three additional post to cover the three prophecies concerning Satan’s appearance.  Again I ask that you consider these post prayerfully, with a humble spirit and opened mind,  allowing the Holy Spirit to speak to you. 

Blessings

 

[Challenger]

 The Antichrist Daniel 8:1-27 

Beginning Point in Time: About 538 B.C. Ending Point in Time: The Second Coming. 

Introduction:  The information provided in each prophecy is additive in nature, which means you need to understand the entire prophetic story before you completely understand any part of it! From the beginning, God designed the seventeen prophecies in Daniel and Revelation to work together so that when the time came for the book of Daniel to be unsealed at the time of the end, the mystery and ambiguity encasing apocalyptic prophecy over the past twenty-six centuries would disappear. 

The Sequence Dan. 8:1-27

{1} In the third year of King Belshazzar’s reign, I received a vision. {2} I was in the city of Susa, located in the province of Elam. I was standing beside the beautiful Ulai Canal. {3} I looked up into the sky and I saw a powerful ram with two great horns growing out of its head. One horn was longer than the other and the longer horn grew out last. {4} I watched as the ram came from the east. He charged toward the west, the north, and the south. No one could stand against him, and none could escape his awesome power. He did as he pleased and he became great. (5) While watching this powerful beast, suddenly a goat with a big horn between his eyes came out of the west. He was traveling so fast that he did not appear to touch the ground. {6} He charged the two horned ram with enormous fury. {7} The goat struck the ram and shattered its two horns. The ram was hurled to the ground and trampled. No one could rescue the ram from the goat’s attack. {8} The goat became a great kingdom, but something unusual happened. At the height of its power, the goat’s mighty horn was broken off and in its place four substantial horns grew – one toward the north, the south, the east, and the west. {9} As I watched, I saw another scene. Out of the north I saw a horn approaching. This horn did not have an animal host.(2 Sam. 22:3;LK.1:69; Zec. 1:19-21) It was not related to the ram or the goat or any earthly kingdom.(Rev. 17:8; Dan. 11;36) As I watched, it started small, but it quickly grew in power and popularity toward the south, east, and the west (my homeland, the Beautiful Land). {10} This horn grew until his fame was known and honored all over the world. When he became able, he threw down the starry host (various gods that mankind worships) and trampled on them.

Many people make the mistake of thinking the horn in Daniel
8 and the little horn in Daniel 7 are one and the same. There are several reasons why this is not possible. First, this prophecy completely “leapfrogs” the time periods of the fourth beast (168 B.C. - A.D. 476) and the little horn (538 -1798). The fourth empire in Daniel 7 (Rome) is not mentioned in this prophecy because the horn in Daniel 8 is not attached to any beast. This horn does not rise out of a world empire. It appears from out of nowhere, “out of the four winds,” specially, out of the north. The north is prophetically important because it is often said in Scripture that divine wrath comes out of the north. Second, within the context of this vision, a beast is a symbol of an empire and a horn is a symbol of a king. The mighty horn on the goat (verse 21) represents the first king of Greecia (Alexander the Great). Similarly, the horn that just appears out of the north represents “a stern-faced king” that will appear and overtake the world “when rebels have become completely wick- ed” (verse 23). Third, Gabriel told Daniel (verses 17 and 19) that this vision concerns the appointed time of the end which occurs after the 2,300 day/years expire in 1844. In other words, the horn in this vision will appear on Earth after 1844 – at the appointed time of the end. Prophecies 8 and 11 will further explain why this horn represents the physical appearing of Lucifer, the dreaded Antichrist. 

Jesus will permit Lucifer to physically appear before the people of Earth during the Great Tribulation. Jesus will release the devil from the Abyss at an appointed time to lead the world into destruction. (Fifth trumpet. Adventist teach fifth and sixth trumpets point to the ravages of the Saracens and Turks, SDA bible com.,Vol.7, pg. 791) Lucifer will deceive the wicked and his followers will be like the sand on the seashore. Lucifer will astonish Earth’s inhabitants with his miracles, boldness, and assumed authority. At the sixth trumpet, the devil will abolish all of the religions of the world and trample on them. He will claim to be Almighty God and as such, he will demand that religious diversity be eliminated. He is The Master of Deception. He will deceive Moslems, Jews, Catholics, Atheists, Protestants, Eastern Mystics, and the Heathen by performing great signs and miracles – even calling fire down from Heaven. He will eliminate the starry hosts – an ancient term used for various “gods” or whatever is worshiped as “God” and he will demand that everyone honor and worship him as God Almighty. 

{11} Lucifer will masquerade as Almighty God. He will bring to an end the daily ministry Jesus does on behalf of sinners by forcing everyone into a decision. Near the end of the Great Tribulation, everyone on Earth will have either the seal of God or the mark of the beast. With lies and deceit, Lucifer will trample on the honor and respect that belongs to man’s Creator. 

{12} The horn power cannot appear physically on Earth until Jesus permits him to escape the Abyss. This event (see the fifth trumpet in Prophecy ? will occur about two and a half years into the Great Tribulation. Because the carnal heart is naturally rebellious toward God and His authority, the devil will find it easy to deceive those who stubbornly rebel against the demands of the gospel of Jesus. Lucifer will lead the wicked to think that God’s saints are evil and rebellious, and soon after, the wicked will kill and destroy the saints thinking they are doing God a service. God’s people will be defeated. God will remove the power He gave to the 144,000 servant/prophets and the devil’s minions will kill them. The wicked will commit the unpardonable sin. They will reject the clearest evidences of truth and defy the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Evil will temporarily triumph because truth will be thrown to the ground as if it were garbage.

The devil’s demons will use painful torture to subdue rebellious people into worshiping Lucifer as Almighty God during the fifth trumpet. The devil’s demons will also lead the wicked to murder millions of saints during the sixth trumpet because they refused to obey the devil’s demands. The devil will prosper in everything that he does. He will cause his followers to despise truth. Worse, he will cause billions of wicked people to despise Jesus and His generous gift of salvation. 

Discussion 

{13} I overheard two angels talking. The first angel asked some clarifying questions: “How long will it take for this vision to be fulfilled? When will the daily intercession of Christ at the Altar of Burnt Offering end? When will this great rebellion that causes desolation occur? When will God’s efforts to save man and the saints be trampled underfoot?” {14} The second angel said to me, “All of these questions are important, but only the first one will be answered in this vision. The rest of the questions will be answered in subsequent visions. Daniel, this vision concerns the horn power who will come from the north. He is a coming king, but not from an earthly nation. He and his angels will appear in the sky. He is the destroyer in Revelation 9:11 named Abaddon (Hebrew) or Apollyon (Greek), a stern-faced king who will appear at the end of the world. Lucifer cannot physically appear until Jesus allows him to come out of the Abyss and he will not be released from the Abyss until the cleansing (or restoration) of Heaven’s temple is about to end.”

 The process of cleansing Heaven’s temple is important in this vision because God has set a date (1844), near the end of the world, when Jesus will open the books of record and begin cleansing Heaven’s temple. (14) The angel said, “When 2,300 evenings and mornings expire, then shall (future indicative tense) the cleansing work of Jesus in Heaven’s temple begin. Later, the horn from the north (Satan) will appear on Earth and bring Jesus’ cleansing work to a close.” 

To summarize, God put a ram, a goat, a 2,300 year time period, and a horn power in this vision. The ram and goat are well documented ancient empires. After the 2,300 years expire, the horn power(Satan) will appear at the appointed time of the end. The connecting link between these ancient empires and the appearing of the horn power is a prophetic time period of 2,300 years. When the 2,300 years end, Jesus will open the books of record and carefully investigate the life record of each person who sleeps in the grave. When this process draws near its conclusion, Jesus will release the horn power (the devil) from the Abyss so that he can appear physically before mankind. The devil and his angels will take actions that force everyone into a firm decision regarding whom they will worship and obey. Once every decision has been made, there is nothing further that Jesus can do to save anyone. Salvation’s offer will then terminate and Jesus’ cleansing work will end. 

{19} Gabriel said again, “I have come to tell you what will happen in the distant future. The end of the world will be marked by a time of wrath. The end of the world will surely come. God has set the date by His own authority. Prior to the Second Coming of Jesus, a great tribulation will overtake Earth. God will send a series of devastating judgments/seven trumpets upon Earth and everyone will see and experience His wrath. This is why the appointed time of the end is also called ‘a time of wrath.’ 

Notice again this important point: A horn in this vision represents a king. The great horn on the goat represents Alexander the Great. The four horns that took Alexander’s place represent the four kings who succeeded him. Notice again this distinction: The goat represents the kingdom of Grecia, but the horns represent its kings. This distinction is important in this prophecy because the horn that will come from the north will be a king without an earthly empire.He will conquer the whole world. The devil will be a “stern-faced king” and he will physically appear out of nowhere when Jesus is almost finished with cleansing Heaven’s temple. Paul refers to the appearing of the devil as the man of sin, the man of lawlessness.Isaiah calls him a man and so does Ezekiel.

Regarding this vision I have have just highlighted “the horn from the north” and the time of it’s appearing.  I strongly encourage you to compare this commentary with The SDA commentary, vol. 4, pg. 841. 

It states, “This little horn represents Rome in both its phases, pagan and papal.”

 

 

[Challenger]

Wars Between the North & South Daniel 10:1-12:13 

Beginning Point in Time: 538 B.C. Ending Point in Time: Second Coming 

Summary: This vision contains two stories. The first story describes a series of battles that conclude with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and the second story describes a battle that concludes with the destruction of the world at the Second Coming. Two stories are told in this vision because there are important parallels between them. 

Using repetition and enlargement, the second story amplifies the appearing of the horn described in Daniel 8. Remember the horn in Daniel 8 appears out of nowhere. We will discover in Prophecies 8 and 11 that Lucifer will be released from the Abyss (spirit realm, when the fifth trumpet sounds). He will physically appear and establish a worldwide kingdom on Earth. To do this, he must destroy the religions and governments of the world. Jesus will permit the devil to do this for a minimum of two reasons. First, Jesus wants the universe to witness the nature of government that any sinner would establish if given the opportunity and absolute power to accomplish it. 

Second, Jesus enables the devil to destroy the religions and govern- ments of Earth so that religious heritage and patriotism will not hinder any person from accepting salvation. In other words, when Satan is allowed to abolish patriotism and religious heritage, he will eliminate the two cherished refuges of all mankind. Suddenly, each person will find himself in a very difficult “no-man’s land.” Each wicked person will have to rethink the basis for his rebellion against the gospel of Christ. Whom will he now worship and obey – the visible despot who gloriously masquerades as God or the unseen Creator of Heaven and Earth that dwells in Heaven? 

The second part of this vision begins with Daniel 11:36. The King of the North is Lucifer. He will physically appear during the fifth trumpet and will be successful until the time of wrath (the Great Tribulation) is completed. Lucifer will conquer the world and destroy everyone who stands in his way. God has given this information to the final generation because He does not want His people to give up or lose faith in Him. During the Great Tribulation, God will permit the forces of evil to kill most of His saints. This is not as horrible as it may sound because God will give His people the grace and strength to die a martyr’s death when grace is needed. Even more, sleeping in Christ while the remainder of the Great Tribulation plays out will be a merciful release from suffering and deprivation. 

When Lucifer physically appears, he will masquerade as Almighty God, demand an end to religious and political diversity, and order that a one world theocracy be established. He will demand, “There cannot be any religious or political diversity when God lives among men!” Many people on Earth will resist the devil’s attempt to establish his theocracy because they do not want to obey him. The devil and his forces (represented in the second portion of this prophecy as the King of the North) will destroy the opposition3 (represented in this prophecy as the King of the South). God’s saints will be trapped in the middle of this war because, like the opposition, they will refuse to worship the devil, but for different reasons. 

The Time of the End 

The final segment of this vision pertains to those who will live at the time of the end. God has provided this information because the final generation needs to understand certain things about the time of wrath. The most amazing event prior to the Second Coming will be the physical appearing of the devil. [SDA do not teach this] The appearing and work of Lucifer is described twice in the book of Daniel. God uses repetition and enlargement to inform His children about the future activities of the devil. 

{36} “Two-thirds of the way through the Great Tribulation, the forward advancement of the gospel of Jesus Christ will come to a stand still. At that point in time, almost everyone will have heard the gospel and will have made their decision to embrace it or reject it. 

Jesus became a man to save the world from sin. Lucifer will become a man to lead the world into destruction. God is fair. Jesus physically appeared and the devil will be permitted to physically appear. God allows the devil to physically appear so that sincere people can compare God’s way of love with Lucifer’s use of force, lies and manipulation. God will permit the devil to masquerade and exalt himself as Almighty God. God “sends this delusion” to complete the tyranny of evil that began thousands of years ago. The devil will make all kinds of outrageous claims and he will do as he pleases because no one can stop him. When he first appears, he will appear to be generous and benevolent. He will feed the multitudes, just as Jesus did, and perform incredible healing miracles with signs and wonders. All this will be done for one malevolent purpose; Lucifer seeks the worship and honor that belongs to Jesus. Meanwhile, the saints will be trapped in “no-man’s land.” They cannot unite with those who believe that the devil is God (the religious wicked) and they cannot unite with the non-religious wicked who want nothing to do with Lucifer. The devil will exalt and magnify himself above every god known to mankind and he will say unheard of things against the Most High God. Lucifer will eventually gain control of the whole world. However, his true identity will be exposed during the fifth bowl, for what has been predetermined by the Most High God will surely take place. 

{37} “When the devil appears, he will show no respect for any of the traditional gods (false gods) which the people of the world honor and worship. The devil will show no respect for the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah, the male child which every woman in Israel desires to have as a Son. The devil will exalt himself above them all. 

{38} “Instead of respecting the gods that the world’s different religions have known and trusted, he will denounce them all and trample them into the dirt. When the sixth trumpet sounds, the devil will abolish the religions and governments of the world and in their place, he will establish a false theocracy (a one world church-state, Rev..13:14,15) Everyone will be carefully monitored because promotions and extra rations of food will be given to snitches. Everyone will be required to worship according to the laws that Lucifer establishes. The world will become as one city, and the devil’s fortress will be his government. He will turn brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor. Those who worship Lucifer will be fearful because there will be secret police everywhere. No one will be able to trust anyone. Lucifer will rule the world as ‘Lord of lords and King of kings through terror.(2Thes. 2:I-12; Is. 14:16,17; Ez. 28:1-19) Everyone on Earth will be required to obey his laws or be killed. The devil will finance his theocracy with gold and silver, precious stones, and costly gifts. 

{39} “At the time of the sixth trumpet, Jesus will give the devil authority to forcibly take over the world. Lucifer will lead a fierce attack against the political powers that oppose him (the nonreligious wicked) and the devil’s theocracy will be set up. The devil and his followers will destroy a third of mankind.(Rev. 9:15) He will greatly honor those leaders who acknowledge that he is “God.” The devil will abolish the nations and religions of the world, he will dissolve all national boundaries and divide the world into ten sectors.(Rev. 9:13-21; 17:12-17) He will appoint ten puppet-kings to rule as taskmasters over his slaves, the people of the world.(Dan.2:42; Rev. 6:15; 17:12) The devil will claim ownership over all real estate and he will redistribute the land to the highest bidders. He will be heartless, ruthless, and lawless. This explains to some extent why the devil must be permitted to physically appear. Jesus wants everyone in the universe to observe what any sinner would do if given sovereign authority. 

{40} “During the sixth trumpet, a few sincere people will come to their senses. When they observe Lucifer’s true character and his evil ways, they will repent of their rebellion and embrace Jesus and His gospel. A few people will finally see that in serving Jesus Christ, there is genuine freedom, but this truth will not become evident until they discover that Lucifer rules through slavery and bondage. Many non-religious people will refuse to embrace the gospel of Jesus and they will also hate the devil’s great authority. These people will unite (under the direction of a rebel king) and in a desperate effort to overthrow the devil, they will seal their own fate. The devil will respond with overwhelming force. He and his followers will attack his adversaries by land, air, and a great fleet of ships. He will invade and destroy many countries, and sweep through them like a tsunami, an unstoppable wall of water.

 {42} “Ultimately, the devil will impose his government on the world. {43} The devil will also control the wealth of the world. Even those who hate him and those who hate the Most High God will have no choice but to submit to him, for no person will be able to buy or sell unless he submits to Lucifer’s laws and wears his approval (a tattoo called the mark of the beast, Rev. 13:16). {44} “During the sixth trumpet, the 144,000 servant/prophets will announce three messages to the world: (a) the approaching end of salvation’s offer, (b) that everyone who worships the devil will be punished during the seven bowls, and (c) that Jesus’ return is imminent. These announcements will make the devil very angry. In a rage, he will attempt to kill everyone he can find who worships the Creator of Heaven and Earth. 

{45} “Lucifer will establish his throne ‘in the middle of mankind’ and he will rule over human beings as Almighty God. His achievement will be short lived because the seven bowls will immediately begin. During the fifth bowl, the devil will be unmasked and the wicked will clearly see that the glorious being they have been worshiping is the devil himself. During the seventh bowl, the devil and his angels will be returned to the Abyss. His defeat will surely come, but not by human hands. 

{12:1} When Jesus stands up, 6,000 years of intercession for sinners will come to an end. On that day, Jesus will pronounce condemnation upon all who refused His offer of salvation and received the mark of the beast. The wicked will be doomed to receive the wrath of God (the seven bowls) which will be poured out without mercy. The pain and suffering in flicted on the wicked cannot be described, but everyone who has faith like Daniel, everyone whose name is found written in The Book of Life, will be delivered from the suffering which the seven bowls contain. When Jesus stands up, the persecution of the saints will cease and there will never be another Christian martyr, ever! 

Again, I have just shared the commentary on the verses within this prophecy that speak to the activities of Satan/King of the north. Concerning these verses SDA commentary, vol 4, pg. 877, state: “SDA expositors who find the career of France during the Revolution the subject of vs. 36-39 hold that Turkey is the king of the north of vs. 40-45. Those who apply vs. 36-39 to the papacy here find a prophetic picture of the climax of its career…identify the papacy as the king of the north.”

Question: Which of these two commentaries do you think Satan most likely is promoting, and the one he most likely is trying to bury?

[Challenger]

The Rise of Babylon Revelation 12:7-14:5 

Beginning point in time: Resurrection Sunday, A.D. 30 Ending point in time: Sixth trumpet judgement

Summary: This apocalyptic prophecy describes three types of kingdoms: Political, religious, and demonic. The first type lasted approximately 1,000 years (605 B.C.- 538 A.D.). During this time, political leaders governed world empires (represented by the four beasts in Daniel 7). The second type lasted 1,260 years (538- 1798). During this time, religious leaders dominated the nations of Europe (the little horn in Daniel 7). The third and final type of kingdom will last 42 months and a demon will dominate it. This progression speaks volumes. 

Prophecy 11 describes the transition of Lucifer from an invisible state to a visible state. The devil will appear physically as a majestic being wearing a glorious garment of brilliant light! (2 Cor. 11:14) Jesus permits the devil to appear so that mankind can observe his words and actions. Because Lucifer is evil incarnate, even a wicked person will learn for himself that Lucifer is a grossly evil super power. 

This prophecy begins on Resurrection Sunday and it reaches to the time when the 144,000 servant/prophets ascend to heaven and offered to Jesus as first fruits of the harvest to come. God has given us this prophecy because He wants us to study and anticipate Lucifer’s actions even though he is currently invisible. The devil is extremely clever and powerful. The world has not seen anything that even remotely compares with the physical appearing of Lucifer. He will come down from the sky, attended by millions of demons (fallen angels). They will be very large in stature, perhaps fifteen feet tall. They will physically dwarf the people of Earth and worse, guns and artillery cannot kill them.( Dan.8:25) The whole world will find out that human beings are no match for fallen angels. Lucifer will take over the world and no one can thwart him. 

Introduction: This prophecy consists of five events that occur in chronological order. [remember “the natural law” in my first post. After this law was revealed and the beginning and ending points of prophecy realized and the chronological order of events within each, the prophecies became more clear, this is progressive truth for our day]

 The devil is cast out of Heaven (verses 7-12)

The devil persecutes the woman for 1,260 years (verses 13-16) 

The devil wages war on the remnant of the woman (verses 12:17-13:10)

The devil physically appears, sets up his theocracy and implements the mark of the beast (verses 13:11-18)

The 144,000 celebrate in a victory ceremony in Heaven (verses 14:1-14:5) 

(Rev. 13;1-3) Currently, the world does not anticipate the first four trumpets or the creation of the composite beast. They have no idea that the devil has been preparing for more than two hundred years to ambush everyone who follows Jesus. Lucifer is crouched like a lion, waiting to pounce on the remnant of the woman with the ferocity of a grizzly bear and no one can outrun a leopard. When millions of Christians are forced by circumstances to admit that there will not be a pre-tribulation rapture, when millions of other Christians are forced to admit that the seven trumpets were not fulfilled in past history, a devastating tsunami of bitterness will flood through Christianity and wash many away. 

 The seven heads represent the seven religious systems of the world: Atheism, Heathenism, Judaism, Islam, Eastern Mysticism, Catholicism, and Protestantism. In terms of political clout and religious prowess, the Roman Catholic Church The Roman Catholic Church today has diplomatic relations with heads of state in 179 nations. History and Bible prophecy indicate the sixth head of the composite beast (the Roman Catholic Church) received a fatal wound in 1798, but the Bible also indicates the fatal wound will be healed when Babylon forms. The healing of the wounded head points forward to a time when a pope will be restored to a position that has persecuting power. In fact, the pope will lead a coalition of religious leaders into persecuting the remnant of the woman. 

During the first four trumpets, the religious leaders of the world will unite in an effort to appease God’s wrath. They will create a global authority (Babylon) that will be responsible for “helping” the nations of the world appease God. The pope will be appointed to lead a coalition of religious leaders in a united endeavor to appease God on a nation by nation basis so that His wrath will cease. Millions of people will be traumatized and religiously disoriented (humbled and confused) by the evidences of God’s wrath. The Catholic Church has an existing network already established among the nations, so the pope will be the obvious choice to lead Babylon, but he will not serve alone. Religious and political leaders of the world will also serve on Babylon’s board of directors and this unity will enable Babylon to move quickly, as the leopard portion of this composite beast reminds us. 

(4)This verse teaches a profound truth: A person worships the devil who will give this composite beast his power, when they knowingly obeys a law that has a requirement contrary to the law of God. The composite beast (Babylon) will create many laws regarding worship and moral conduct. Civil authorities will implement these laws as though they were the will of God, when actually, these laws will be the handiwork of Lucifer. Any law regarding worship that stands in conflict with the Ten Commandments, including the fourth commandment,is blasphemy. from their work on the Creator’s seventh day Sabbath. 

The 144,000 servant/prophets will inform the world that Babylon’s laws are blasphemous in God’s sight. Furthermore, Babylon’s efforts to appease God’s wrath will have no effect on God’s wrath! Corporate atonement for Earth ended forever when the censer was cast down.(Rev.8:2-5) The first four trumpets have sounded and the fifth trumpet will occur on time! Life as it was known is over! There will be no further judgments from God until the fifth trumpet sounds. 

The testimony given by the 144,000 servant/prophets will cause a great uproar. Many wicked people will attempt to harm and kill the 144,000 servants/prophets but they cannot be silenced until they have completed their work. Severe penalties will be imposed on anyone who defies the laws of Babylon. God permits this so that faith can be tested. God wants to reveal who will worship as Babylon demands and who will trust in God and do as He requires (live by faith). 

Many people will complain to the 144,000, “Why should we resist the laws of Babylon and be punished? We have seen the wrath of God. We know that God is angry with the world’s degenerate behavior. If all of us do not repent and worship God, we will offend Him further and bring more disaster upon ourselves. What difference does it matter if we worship God on Tuesday, Friday, Saturday, or Sunday? As long as we worship God.” The 144,000 will respond that God’s law has higher authority than any law made by man. Surprisingly, Babylon will maintain that it does not matter which day a person keeps holy and it will then establish a day it wants people to observe as a holy day. 

Rule One requires the composite beast to rise out of the sea after 1798 because the Bible states that when the composite beast rises from the sea, the deadly wound had been healed (past perfect tense). If the papacy received a deadly wound in 1798, then it stands to reason that the healing of the deadly wound must occur after 1798. Therefore, the composite beast has to appear on Earth after 1798 and we know this has not occurred because a one world crisis government does not yet exist. 

(Rev.13:6) When the fifth trumpet occures, the devil will appear physically and Babylon’s leaders will slandered God’s holy name by claiming that God and his angels dwelled among men! They proclaimed, “Let the world and everyone in it worship him!”  God commands everyone to rest from labor on Saturday, the seventh day of the week. When Babylon forms, it will require the nations to worship God according to the religious majority in each nation. Babylon’s religious leaders will make many declarations about God that are insulting and blasphemous. Babylon’s blasphemy will continue to escalate because Lucifer is the hand inside the puppet. Babylon’s persecution will be intense, intimidating many Christians. For fear of punishment and lack of food, many Christians will give in to Babylon’s demands and refuse to put their faith in Jesus. The remnant of the woman will be imprisoned, beaten, tortured, and many saints will be put to death. Like the Pharisees and Sadducees in Christ’s time, religious leaders will angrily reject the testi- mony of Jesus, faithfully spoken through the lips of the 144,000 servant/prophets.

(Rev.13;11-18) The “lamb-like” beast is the great red dragon wearing sheep’s clothing. Lucifer will personate Jesus. Lucifer will appear on earth about two years after the composite beast appears. The devil knows that “seeing is believing,” and in his situation, this phrase will be particularly true. During the five months of the fifth trumpet, Lucifer and his angels will travel the world nonstop from one heavily populated area to another. Wherever he goes, millions of people will go out to see him. He will claim to be God. He will claim that he sent the first four trumpet judgments upon Earth because of man’s degenerate and decadent behavior. 

His brilliant glory and awesome powers will appear to back up his blasphemous assertions. Physically, he will be larger than life. He will be a glorious being surrounded by thousands of dazzling angels (demons in disguise). Every day, the devil will put on a great show of signs and wonders to bedazzle his spectators.  

{12} When he appears in different world locations, he will honor the leaders of Babylon by telling the people that they must obey (worship) God as Babylon’s leaders dictate. This flattery, of course, will make the leaders of Babylon very happy to think that God himself would endorse their legislative efforts to appease His wrath! God empowers Lucifer (the man of lawlessness) to come as “a strong delusion” because the wicked refused to believe the truth and be saved. “The coming of the lawless one will [appear to be the work of God, but it will] be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They [those refusing the eternal gospel must] perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” (2 This. 2;9-12)

(Rev. 13;13-18) At various times and in different places, the devil called fire down from Heaven in full view of men. {14} The devil’s miracle working powers eclipsed and silenced the miracles performed by the 144,000 servant/prophets. For five months the lamblike beast will produce miracles on behalf of Babylon’s leadership. The devil will quickly subdue nonreligious people and gain the confidence, allegiance, and adoration of most of the world, 

The sixth trumpet will sound in Heaven’s temple and the angel standing at Heaven’s Altar of Incense will say, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”(Rev.9:14) When these words are spoken, the devil and his demons will abruptly change character. This phrase sets the devil free to forcibly take control of the world. During the fifth trumpet, the devil will not be allowed to kill anyone. When the sixth trumpet sounds, the devil’s “benevolent” character will immediately change and he will be permitted to kill one-third of mankind. Suddenly, he will begin speaking as a dictator, for without a doubt, the great red dragon is a narcissistic dictator. He will immediately dissolve the religions of the world because when “God” dwells among men there is no room for religious diversity. There will be one lord, one faith, and one baptism for everyone on Earth. The devil will also move to dissolve the governments of the world because as “God,” he owns the whole world. He will distribute the land to his wealthy followers.(Dan. 11:39) He will appoint ten puppet-kings to rule under him. Their purpose will be to oversee the day to day administration of an evil and brutal theocracy. (Rev. 17:12-14)

By dissolving the religions and governments of the world, the devil effectively consolidates Babylon into a one world church state. He will declare that Phase I was necessary because of man’s diversity, but now that “God (referring to himself) lives among men,” there has to be one faith, one lord, and one baptism. He will tell the world that he has come to establish a thousand years of peace on Earth. Therefore, the religious and political diversity of the world has to be eliminated. There must be one government and one religious body and no one other than God himself can rule as king of kings and lord of lords. 

Because God’s Sabbath day will be an in flammatory issue, it seems likely that the devil will change the weekly cycle from seven days to ten days to insult the Creator and His Sabbath rest. By establishing a day for worship which the whole world will accept as a holy day, the devil will expose those who rest from working on the seventh day If the devil makes this transition, his action would end the argument that it does not matter which day a person sets aside to worship God. 

{15} After the sixth trumpet sounded, everyone refusing to worship Lucifer and obey the laws of his counterfeit theocracy was killed (if captured). {16} Everyone wishing to survive, including the small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, received a mark, a tattoo (Greek: charagma means an etching) on his right hand or on his forehead.(Rev.9:15)

{17} No one was permitted to buy or sell (that is, able to survive) unless he had the tattoo. This mark of the beast actually includes the name of the beast, that is, the name that Lucifer will be called. Lucifer’s name will be tattooed on the foreheads of his captains so that everyone can tell from a distance that one of Lucifer’s captains is approaching or present. Lucifer will have their foreheads tattooed to mock Jesus because after the 144,000 servant/prophets are taken to Heaven, they will wear the name of the Father and the Lamb on their foreheads (signifying their exalted rank). (Rev.14:1; 22:4) 

{18} The tattoo showing “666” on the right hand will serve as a non-transferrable passport (physical evidence) showing that the wearer is loyal to the devil’s counterfeit theocracy and that he is eligible to buy or sell rations, the necessities required to remain alive. A simple tattoo will be a very efficient identification method because it does not require accounting, electricity, computers, or paper work. Those who wear the tattoo on their right hand will belong to the devil. They defied the gospel of Jesus. They rejected the clearest evidences of God’s will and they blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Receiving the tattoo means they committed the unpardonable sin. Therefore, they become Satan’s servants. They prostituted their souls to the devil for the sake of survival. Conversely, God’s people will be totally shut off from all earthly support, but Jesus will not abandon His children. He will provide for them because, “The just shall live by faith.”

 I will end this commentary here and the following prophecy which stats in (Rev. 14;6-15:6) and covers the three angles messages, please understand it will be the 144,000 servant/prophets who proclaim these messages during the judgement of the living while Babylon/beast from the sea is literally formed and functioning. Consider this, The first message is, "Fear God [literaly] for the hour of His judgement is here." The judgement is of the living, and that judgement takes place during the tribulation.

Please consider the commentary on these three prophecies prayerfully. Again they are based on progressive truths that were not revealed to our early fathers, and are not reflected in our SDA commentaries. They are different, but different doesn’t mean they are wrong. Compare out commentaries to what I have presented here.  Ask yourself which of the two makes more senses of the prophecies just as they read.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gustave]

Isn't it true to say that the SDA Church (at least as it exists today) is a "Big Tent"? What I mean by this is that a vast variety of beliefs are permissible. 

Years ago I was invited to an explore Revelation series of meetings at an SDA Church that's literally just down the hill from where I live. I went to one of those meetings and immediately afterwards watched as a not insignificant group of SDA's were lambasting the Pastor about the Trinity Doctrine. 

One would assume that if SDA's can be vocal with their own Pastor at an after-hours program and articulate that Jesus isn't God surely someone could hold vocal differences about Ellen White? Right? 

[Challenger]

I'm, sure it could be said of all religions that within its membership individuals hold to beliefs not endorsed by the corporate body.  Such it is with me. But what I would like to see in all religions, ours as well,  is leadership that is solely desiring to teach the undiluted teaching of the bible. Should a correction in their teaching be brought to their attention, it should not be consider at threat, by the individual, with the intent to disrupt the satis quo, to bring down those holding power. But rather a time to revaluate because it might just be that God is sending us this individual with progressive truths at this time for consideration. 

Isn't that what Christ and his disciples were about, the reformers with respect to the papacy? Those religions were going off the tracks and need to be put back on the rails. I sincerely think our church is off the rails when it comes to understand closing events because much of our interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy is incorrect. 

Have you carefully read through all of my post?

Do you even understand what our position is on those prophecies, and do you care?

Do you think I raised any legitimate concerns?

[NOTE:  I have very slightly edited the above post--Gregory Matthews.]

[Challenger]

I do appreciate this forum being policed by users being disrespectfuI. I certainly did not consider asking someone if they cared about the subject I posted to be disrespectful. If I had said, have you any interest in the subject of my post, would I have received a post such as this?

Being new to this platform, is there a way that one can edit a post after it is posted?

 

[NOTE:  You cannot edit your post.  Acting on what I believe to be a request for me to edit the post, I have done so--Gregory Matthews.]

[Gustave]

Hi Challenger, what I meant to say earlier was that if SDA's can openly repudiate the Trinity Doctrine from inside the Church, in the actual presence of their own pastor it doesn't seem reasonable to expect an issue would arise from someone putting a spin on "horn powers" that's novel from what the SDA historically teaches.

Now, if you're telling me that you are being clobbered because you put a different spin on The Last Things than the SDA Church has historically taught this will spark my interest as to how there can be so many anti-Trinitarians inside the SDA Church living in perfect harmony within the organization yet if someone comes up with an interpretation that's novel from the SDA historical understandings of The Last Things then that becomes a big problem. I'd like to explore this with you. 

[Challenger]

20 hours ago, Gustave said:

Hi Challenger, what I meant to say earlier was that if SDA's can openly repudiate the Trinity Doctrine from inside the Church, in the actual presence of their own pastor it doesn't seem reasonable to expect an issue would arise from someone putting a spin on "horn powers" that's novel from what the SDA historically teaches.

Now, if you're telling me that you are being clobbered because you put a different spin on The Last Things than the SDA Church has historically taught this will spark my interest as to how there can be so many anti-Trinitarians inside the SDA Church living in perfect harmony within the organization yet if someone comes up with an interpretation that's novel from the SDA historical understandings of The Last Things then that becomes a big problem. I'd like to explore this with you. 

Fine, happy to discuss. what's your questions.

[Challenger]

20 hours ago, Gustave said:

Hi Challenger, what I meant to say earlier was that if SDA's can openly repudiate the Trinity Doctrine from inside the Church, in the actual presence of their own pastor it doesn't seem reasonable to expect an issue would arise from someone putting a spin on "horn powers" that's novel from what the SDA historically teaches.

Now, if you're telling me that you are being clobbered because you put a different spin on The Last Things than the SDA Church has historically taught this will spark my interest as to how there can be so many anti-Trinitarians inside the SDA Church living in perfect harmony within the organization yet if someone comes up with an interpretation that's novel from the SDA historical understandings of The Last Things then that becomes a big problem. I'd like to explore this with you. 

Fine, happy to discuss. what's your questions.

[Gustave]

My question is how can it be that SDA members can openly repudiate the Doctrine of the Trinity and that's passable / permissible and you can't hold different ideas on The Last Things?  I'm looking for the nexus that explains this. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave, here is the Issue:  Ted Wilson sits high up on the administrative ladder.  The majority of his life in the SDA Church has been spent divorced from congregations, and in administrative positions.   It is his desire, as I understand him, that the so-called 28-Fundamenal Beliefs, should be the minimal requirement to become a Seventh-day Adventists.

Out where the SDA congregational pastors work, far away from where Ted Wilson is, the minimal standard of belief does not typically rest in the so-called 28.  Yes, there are some exceptions to this.  Amon the typical pastor, the minimal requirement will likely be no more than the so-called 13.  In actual fact, there is a lot of room for a range in understanding those 13.  

The result of all of this is what is often called the "Big Tent." 

So, yes, individual membes may hold a range of beliefs.  That is clearly true for thoughts on Last Day Events. 

[Challenger]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:28 AM, Gustave said:

My question is how can it be that SDA members can openly repudiate the Doctrine of the Trinity and that's passable / permissible and you can't hold different ideas on The Last Things?  I'm looking for the nexus that explains this. 

Gustave, I can't speak to the issue of the Trinity, for I find it hard to imagine an Adventist not believing that Jesus is deity, however, closing events is something I can speak to. In my situation I haven't been able to just keep what I believe is the correct interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy to myself, but rather feel it is my obligation to share what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me by of studying material out side of our own publications. 

I often have done this by presenting these materials to pastors and laity both.. in various churches as I have moved around the country in the past forty years. The response is either silence, which conveys to me the leadership or laity choses not to consider anything being different because they assume it to be wrong. The other response is to issue me an ultimatum too desist passing out books promoting any interpretation that is different than what we have sanctioned since the Great Controversy was written by E.G. White in 1888. The issue here is, If we were to update out interpretation we would have to admit that Mrs.White was wrong in claiming that many of the prophecies were fulfilled in the past, which they were not. We are not willing to admit that prophets do make mistakes if they speak and reason outside of inspiration. Here in lies the issue from my perspective.

We like those anticipating the pre-trib rapture, were all in the same boat. So when closing events materialize differently than what we assume, our faith will be shattered just like it was during the "Great Disappointment" of 1844. 

Truth is progressive and additive, but religions seldom move from their foundational teachings. This is a historical fact. The good news is prophecy reveals God will leap frog all religions and select 144,000 servant/prophets to carry the gospel to the whole world, then the end will come, right on time.

 

 

[Gustave]

I only asked because I was drawing a disconnect as to how folks would give you a hard time because you had some differences in how you believe The Final Things will work out yet a significant number of SDA members feel comfortable enough to read their own Pastor the riot act inside the Church. Something seemed odd to me about that.