Sin after death

[helloJ]

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere, I didn't see any existing threads on this.

I'm trying to understand this passage from the book, Questions on Doctrine (I'm sure someone here has read it)

"Nor can it be said that a man's record is closed when he comes to the end of his days. He is responsible for his influence during life, and is just as surely responsible for his evil influence after he is dead… In order to be just, it would seem that God would need to take all these things into account in the judgment" (pg 420)

The passage itself makes sense - our sins can cause others to stumble and if they should (even after our death) they are added to our heavenly record.

Reading subsequent passages, my understanding is that our sins are recorded and also so is our asking for forgiveness. It goes on to say that at the time of forgiveness, our sins are not blotted out - only the “ask” is recorded. At the end of time - God will destroy sin and all records of it. The “hold off” on blotting them out seems to be such that our future actions may cause God to “cancel” the forgiveness (see pages 439 - 441). 

My question -

Sins are recorded (negative marks on our record) and forgiveness is recorded (canceling out previous sin). As the investigative judgment takes place, if forgiveness is recorded then we are found without fault. 

But what about sins attributed to us via influence on others after we die and can no longer ask for forgiveness?

In my mind I have an image of a timeline, where we accumulate sin and asking for forgiveness removes all sin.

As long as we die with no sin we're good to go!

Perhaps I've completely misunderstood all of this...

[Gregory Matthews]

My view is that all sins of all people were forgiven when Christ died on the Cross.  Paul seems to suggest this in Romans 5.

Now the issue is not that of forgiveness of our sins.  That is accomplished.  The issue now is a personal decision on the part of each human as to where they want to spend eternity.  They can choose to spend eternity with God, and in an eternal life.  Or, they can choose to spend eternity separated from God, which will then result in their eternal death, as to separate from God essentially means decide to forfeit the power of life that comes from God to sustain us not. 

In short, do not worry about what you read in QOD.  Trust in what Paul said in Romans.

[helloJ]

Thanks. I certainly hold scripture above SOP but I'm still trying to understand what exactly the doctrine of investigative judgment means in whole. Trying to formulate an opinion on EGW as a prophetess in general. 

[Gregory Matthews]

In short:  The so-called investigative judgment is a judgment of God, and not of you and I.

It comes from a perspective that there is a universe of created beings who have not sinned against God and are aware of the rebellion of Satan and what has happened on Earth.

The questions that need to be resolved are these: Has sin been removed from those on Earth who have been granted the right to spend an eternity with God?  Is there a danger that sin might arise again in the person of one of those people whom God had granted the right to live in eternity with God?   Is God just in saving some and not others?

Properly understood, the investigative judgment presents God as righteous and just to all intelligent created beings, including us.

 

[Gustave]

Consider this 2 cents (or less) thrown in for consideration. 

Historic Christians (Catholic & Orthodox) have public confessions at Mass and Divine Liturgy where the faithful ask for forgiveness for what they have done and what they have failed to do - this includes those things that we did or said (or didn't do or say) that effects other people or situations. 

Quote

I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

The point of asking for forgiveness for our words and what we did or didn't do is because those things can affect others salvation (even after we may have died). 

Catholic thought doesn't preclude the possibility of extra-terrestrials living on other planets in other areas of deep space and in fact explicitly supports the idea (as the following video shows). It would stand to reason that if there is intelligent alien (to us) life in the universe a general judgement is logical. Obviously our eternal destiny is formalized at the point of our death (not prior) so the idea of a judgement of investigation prior to death seems alien (and odd). 

The Catholic teaching on the General Judgement is for the Wisdom, Mercy and Justice of God to be glorified before ALL.  "All" may very well include extra-terrestrials.

Now I'm not advocating that what we do or don't do on earth can have a negative effect on E.T.'s - I'm just saying that the final display of God's mercy, wisdom and justice at the General Judgement may be open and viewable to intelligent life other than spiritual beings is reasonable to my way of thinking. 

 

[Kevin H]

On 9/14/2024 at 7:45 PM, helloJ said:

Thanks. I certainly hold scripture above SOP but I'm still trying to understand what exactly the doctrine of investigative judgment means in whole. Trying to formulate an opinion on EGW as a prophetess in general. 

Welcome and thank you for asking this question. I really like what Gregory M. said, and hope that he does not mind repeating the same ideas but in different words that may help. 

Much of popular religion has it's basic focus on the idea that God does two very separate things to people, one very nice the other horrible torture. This brings up the question of "How can I get God to let me into heaven instead of sending me to hell?"

However another, or even complementary approach is asking what God is like. Is God someone who we would want to spend eternity with.  God created the universe. The creatures were created to love, and to grow in love into a mature relationship with God.  There are three important questions of where did I come from, why am I here and where am I going. To answer these questions we need to ask three more questions: Is God really God or just a more advanced life form? (Where did I come from? God said that I came from Him, that he is the creator and we are creatures. Is he being honest in claiming to be the great infinite God? If he is not then he has no right to place the law of self sacrificing love on us.)  If he really is God, are we really free to choose to love or not to love? If so how will God choose to treat sinners. God claims be be both just and merciful; how can God be both? Justice means that God has to take sin seriously, that the sinner needs to meet their punishment. But mercy means that God has to forgive them. If they are forgiven does God not take sin seriously? So why should sin even exist if God does not care and will give eternal life to whoever?

As the universe matured, Lucifer was the first to realize these great philosophical and theological questions. Lucifer could have worked with God in studying out these questions, and helped others in dealing with these questions. The mystery of iniquity is why Lucifer, instead of looking for answers to these questions, only congratulated himself for being clever enough to think up these amazing questions. He began worshiping his own intelligence and perceived greatness. He turned these questions into lies about God. The first lie being that God is not God but made of the same essence as the rest of us. That God is a higher life form, but wants to stay on the top of the food chain by imposing upon everyone else the law of self sacrificing love; where I'm too busy caring for you and you caring for me, that we don't have time to look out for numero uno. Thus God used this law to keep us in our place, and God rules the universe simply as a cruel arbitrary tyrant who has no right to impose this law.

The second and third lies are based on God's claim to be just and merciful. Since God is a cruel arbitrary tyrant, he will side on justice. Lucifer thus pictures God as putting an arbitrary imposed punishment for things he simply does not like, or at least don't want us to enjoy.  If God is just, then it does not matter what you do, you will be saved anyway, so live as you please for heaven is your home. This can be carried over as universalism, or look at what Jesus did on the cross and picture that as being your password to go to heaven no matter who you are. 

The Bible does not give us much detail, but God worked long with Lucifer and the rest of the created universe; angels and beings on other planets. God is not the kind to sit down and say "Listen to me and do as I say without question." God wants us to think, study and to come to conclusions.  There are hints in the Bible that there was something here where angels and other finite creatures were studying these questions. Finally two things happened: What ever what here ended up in total chaos, and the two sides of the great controversy formed. Once these two events happened, God stepped out of the background and finally gave some proof as this world went through a special 7 days showing that God was indeed the creator.  While the creation story is focused on the creation of this earth over creation week; there are deeper levels dealing with AT LEAST three different creations: The creation of the universe, the creation of the great controversy, and the creation of earth. When God said "Let there be light" it was not only illumination, but also that the universe was entering a new age of getting light about who God is. 

Even though two sides formed, it took a while before they became settled in their choices. The story of the great controversy is how God has worked with us choosing for or against him, and how the two sides can settle into their choice. And along with this is how God deals with people who actually became sinners.  

The investigative judgment is just another step in this. The reason it starts in 1844 is because in heaven it is a review of our lives, have we really accepted the Lord in our lives, and if we did, what difference does he make in our lives. As Gabriel and the other angels and creatures review this in our life it helps them to understand their own salvation better. Meanwhile, around the time of the middle 1800s the world had some amazing changes. Telegraph started to being quick connection between people. The discovery, then study of and final deciphering of the Rosetta Stone opened up the door to study ancient languages. In the 1830s Edward Robinson did the first scientific study of Biblical Geography, which opened the doors for Biblical archaeology, and learning about the historical and cultural issues surrounding the Bible texts. This gives us on earth a chance to investigate the pages of scripture like never before. 

I hope this helps.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave said:  "Obviously our eternal destiny is formalized at the point of our death (not prior) so the idea of a judgement of investigation prior to death seems alien (and odd). " This issue is complex and consists of several parts.

*  What is sin?  Sin might be said to be anything that is in violation of the will of God, whether known, unknown, intentional or un intended.  As our spiritual knowledge is limited, it might be said that we are always sinning as we never in this life are fully informed as to God's will for us.  We are constantly learning, but never in this life knowing and understanding the totality of God's will for us.  This knowledge of God's will for us comes through the agency of the Holy Spirit working in our lives.

*  God, in my understanding, only charges us with sin when the Holy Spirit has convicted us on that point, and we in rebellion have decided to go against the leading of the Holy Spirit.  None of us know how the Holy Spirit has led in the life of other people.  The Bible does not indicate that growth in spiritual life comes in a set of uniform steps that is the same for all people.  As an example, I consider my friend Gustave to be an honest follower of Christ.  I assume that Gustave does not keep the Sabbath in same sense that I do.  On the assumption that my understanding is correct, God is not charging Gustave with sin if the Holy Spirit has not convicted Gustave in the same manner that I believe that I have been convicted.

* How does this relate to what we call the investigative judgment?  It does not show that people have come into a total knowledge of God.  That will only come in eternity.  Rather it shows to all of the created intelligent beings that:  1) The Holy Spirit has reached out to every person.  2)  Every person has been given an opportunity to become a dedicated follower of Christ, wherever that might lead.  3)  Every person has made a final decision on whether or not to be a follower of Christ.  4) These are the set of people who have made the decision to spend eternity with God.  These are the people who have made the decision not to spend eternity with God.  5)  Consistent with the SDA understanding, those who decide not to spend eternity with God will be separated from the life-giving power of God which sustains us today and will therefore cease to exist.

*  From this perspective, the investigative judgment has a focus on God.  It is God who is shown to all created, intelligent life, to be just in the decisions as to giving some eternal life, and it shows that sin will never rise again, as it has been removed from those who have been granted eternal life.

[Gustave]

I recently heard a Priest at my Church say that God doesn't force anyone to do anything and at death God simply gives us "what we love most".  If what we love most isn't God, well.... This is a tough teaching - how many of us without exception can say (and live out) that we love God more than our wife, children, etc. 

Makes me think. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Your priest seems to agree with my position that salvation is a choice that we make as to whether or not we will spend eternity with God.