Why are we so shocked?!

[Greenjeans]

Hey! I was just reading a post about the number of Adventist men who admit they struggle with pornography. Why is it that we have been so conditioned to think Adventists are immutable, infallible? Why is the wool so firmly over our eyes that we are shocked when Adventists have the same problems as the rest of the world?! Let's face it, folks. We're all human. We're going to struggle with the same issues, Adventist or not.

[Nicodema]

Praise God, the same Saviour and the same Salvation is available to Adventist men who struggle with pornography as it is to everyone else! Proclaim liberty to the captives -- we serve an awesome God who is more than able to deliver us even from the sins we like!

[ChildofChrist]

GJ, I would like to think that Seventh-day Adventists are beyond such stuff.

Would they purchase a Playboy/girl or other such magazine while at a store? Why not? Are they afraid of being 'seen' by someone that thinks a church elder/'s wife should have learned to control such feelings of passion and school boy past-times. Would they go to the store and purchase cigarettes, whiskey, wine or beer? Or do they simply drive over to another county some distance from home so they can indulge their addictions?

To tell the truth, I think I'm now above such shock...Why? Fewer people have a real relationship with the Father. I think it ruins their witness. But that's my opinion.

[Nicodema]

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Fewer people have a real relationship with the Father. I think it ruins their witness. But that's my opinion.

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You're not alone in that opinion.

I'm into simplifying things lately. Simplifying myself, simplifying life. Not becoming simplistic, but eliminating clutter and pointless things and stuff that goes nowhere, ya know? And boiling things down to essentials.

One such boiled down essential that presents itself to me is that we need to decide whether it's about God or about me, in our lives. There is so much liberation to be found in Christ when we just decide it's not about ourselves, but about Him. Now granted, this doesn't automatically convey 100% perfect knowledge of everything. For example, it may not convey to me whether some particular leisure pursuit should be given up entirely or only enjoyed in moderation -- but it's enough to cover the common sense basics, of which "is porn OK or is it wrong?" seems as no-brainer to me as asking, "well gee now that I'm with Christ is it still okay to cast a spell every now and then?" Um, duhhhh......

[Joe_in_RP]

You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good.

Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled.

In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.

Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Titus 2:1-15

[Nicodema]

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In everything set them an example by

doing what is good.

In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech

that cannot be condemned,

so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because

they have nothing bad to say about us.

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This is so important to remember -- that it is not enough to merely teach what is right or the truth, but it is just as important HOW we communicate it. Sometimes I think we (I) tend to forget that, and to think that as long as we're (I'm) upholding "the truth" it doesn't matter how we (I) come across. (Bzzzt, wrong answer, thank you for playing!)

[Jerry Rogers]

GJ - I think that we as Adventists like to think (and believe) that we have risen above the rest of the world.. that we are a "bit better" than "the rest of them" so to speak. Yet, as you mention, we are human and can succumb to any temptation that anyone else can. It sometimes takes guts to admit that we are human and fallable because that means we have to swallow our pride and admit we are just like everyone else at times - and that we can't stay on our high horse like we want to do.

[Naomi]

[it sometimes takes guts to admit that we are human and fallable because that means we have to swallow our pride and admit we are just like everyone else at times - and that we can't stay on our high horse like we want to do./]

lol Accepting our human weakness forces us to be humble. I'm showing my age, but it reminds me of the old song, "It's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way." I do believe that all too often we think that we do enjoy living our version of perfection.

[Guest]

I had a close Adventist friend that "was shocked' to see his preacher drive past his front door and drive around back where he had just stepped off the back porch with a beer in his hand. He walk right over to this preacher hold the beer high in the air until he lifted the hood on his own car. He unscrewed the radiator cap and poured his beer in there saying, that's the best stop leak you ever saw.

[Greenjeans]

Naomi---"Our version of perfection." I love it!! Yes, our little Adventist mentality seems to be quite Pharisaical. If I eat it right, dress it right, say it right, hot diggity dog, I'm going to heaven! And furthermore if you don't eat it right, dress it right, say it right then you're not! NA NA NA NA NAHHHHHHHHH!!!!

The church I grew up in was very conservative, and therefore quite "rules oriented." That's stifling, shaming, etc. Yuck!! I know I'm just now learning how I can be saved right now. I don't have to prove to God that I'm good enough to get into heaven. Jesus already has been!! PTL!!

[Joe_in_RP]

Today I was visiting one of our church members and they were not home yet. So I sat an read a book. About ten minutes later they show up with a food container from a restaurant and he is wearing a soiled work uniform.

[LifeHiscost]

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Yes, our little Adventist mentality seems to be quite Pharisaical. If I eat it right, dress it right, say it right, hot diggity dog, I'm going to heaven! And furthermore if you don't eat it right, dress it right, say it right then you're not! NA NA NA NA NAHHHHHHHHH!!!!

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The fact that the "new" generation of Christians has accepted a new ideology that gives them assurance, is no foolproof evidence of personal salvation. Puffing the chest out when receiving something more substantial to sink our spiritual teeth into, rather than revealing the attitude

of humble servitude, seems more like the prayer of the Pharisee.

[:"red"]"The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people...'" [/] Luke 18:11

Now that we can say as a 'newly enlightened disciple', [:"purple"] "God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people; swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this Pharisee.

I need not fast at all, nor have any bondage of tithing;" [/] does not mean our position is any less odious or repugnant to the God of mercy.

[:"red"]""But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. In order that you may be sons of your Father Who is in heaven;

for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous....

And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the Gentiles (unbelievers) do the same?

Therefore you are to be perfect, (the same) as your Heavenly Father is perfect." [/] Matt 5:44-48

parenthesis mine

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

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Yes, our little Adventist mentality seems to be quite Pharisaical. If I eat it right, dress it right, say it right, hot diggity dog, I'm going to heaven! And furthermore if you don't eat it right, dress it right, say it right then you're not! NA NA NA NA NAHHHHHHHHH!!!!

The church I grew up in was very conservative, and therefore quite "rules oriented." That's stifling, shaming, etc. Yuck!! I know I'm just now learning how I can be saved right now. I don't have to prove to God that I'm good enough to get into heaven.

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I'm sorry to hear you had such a stifling and shaming experience in your upbringing, GJ. I'm glad to hear that the gospel of grace is breaking through to you and I pray it will continue to shine and consume your life until you are gloriously 'no longer yourself' (after the flesh I mean) and glad of it (as I am becoming, as we all will become, in Him!)

[Greenjeans]

I'm not exactly sure what you were saying, but maybe it went something like this..."Sounds to me as if you're just repeating the Pharisee's prayer, but in a different manner." When I wrote "I'm going to heaven and you're not, NA NA NA NA NAHHHH!!!!!!!" I was describing the perceived attitude of the church I grew up in. I have major issues with that!! I'm still angry, hurt, etc. over that kind of attitude. That's probably where the Pharisee is coming through. My attitude will change as God and I work thought that. Nice thing is, God knows what happened, how I feel about it, and accepts me as angry and hurt as I am. But He loves me enough not to leave me there forever!

That said, the whole point of that post was that we are saved BY GRACE ALONE! "For it is by grace we are saved, through faith...not by works, lest any man should boast." Noone can ever do anything to impress God enough to "deserve" heaven. Hallelujah, Jesus did it for us!! Now, does He leave it there? NO. To paraphrase Paul, "Now that we're 'enlightened disciples' who are saved by grace, do we throw the law away? God forbid! The outworking of being accepted in Jesus is keeping the law." I should add---...not because you have to to placate and please a God who rejects you, but because you are now secure in His love and want to please Him.

[LifeHiscost]

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The outworking of being accepted in Jesus is keeping the law." I should add---...not because you have to placate and please a God who rejects you, but because you are now secure in His love and want to please Him.

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I now perceive we are on the same page, and would like to add the reality of reward, both here and in the hereafter,

as a result of not standing in the way while God works His will out in us. A reward that glorifies our Father throughout the ages of eternity.

I would also like to suggest when you (or me) are willing to give up grievances we hold against those we perceive to have damaged us through improper behaviour toward us, it reflects the same attitude Jesus has for us and gives us the greatest possible chance of seeing those who harmed us, enter into the kingdom of heaven as changed creatures also.

[:"red"]"But God demonstrates His own love toward us,

in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." [/] Rom 5:8

[:"red"]"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called accordng to His purposes." [/]Rom 8:28

Blessings!

P.S. BTW, you will be seen as a legalist by some on this forum if you even hint that God is not only willing but powerful enough to give you ability to keep any of the commandments. I haven't yet been able to determine from the discourses what the loving actions are suggested as alternatives to practicing the moral code.

[Greenjeans]

"I would also like to suggest when you (or me) are willing to give up grievances we hold against those we perceive to have damaged us through improper behaviour toward us, it reflects the same attitude Jesus has for us and gives us the greatest possible chance of seeing those who harmed us, enter into the kingdom of heaven as changed creatures also."

[:"green"] [/] I'm not there yet, and that's okay. As the human psyche works, there is a process in letting go of damage. As they say in 12-step circles, you have to feel the pain until you're done, then you can let go and let God.

"P.S. BTW, you will be seen as a legalist by some on this forum if you even hint that God is not only willing but powerful enough to give you ability to keep any of the commandments. I haven't yet been able to determine from the discourses what the loving actions are suggested as alternatives to practicing the moral code."

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[:"green"] [/] People can see me as they wish. I'm just honestly posting my thoughts/feelings.

[Gail]

The first step to getting help for sin, is to acknowledge it as sin, not explain it away or excuse it

[LifeHiscost]

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The first step to getting help for sin, is to acknowledge it as sin, not explain it away or excuse it

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I know you didn't say it, but I believe you meant it.

[:"red"]"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." [/] 1 John 1:9,8

Those who believe some will reach sinlessness before Jesus comes the second time, might help others if they could explain when we are to refuse this counsel of the Holy Spirit.

Lift Jesus up!!

[Greenjeans]

Thanks, Gail. That helped.

[Nicodema]

It's not a sin to be wounded by something someone else does over which you had no control, nor were even consulted as to whether you wanted to experience it or not!!!

More often than not, when the Holy Spirit prompts me toward what I term "proactive forgiveness" it isn't because I'm sinning or purposefully refusing to forgive another. It's because God is trying to liberate ME from MY pain, break the chains of someone else's destructive "spell" or "curse" upon me, so to speak. But God has never (that I can remember) caused me to feel that having been hurt by someone else somehow constituted a sin on MY part. Those kinds of soul-destroying, insanity-inducing lies come from either cruel or deceived human beings, or the devil working through them.

[Greenjeans]

Okay, so maybe I took on something that wasn't mine. Thanks, Nico! Wonderfully put!!

"God has never (that I can remember) caused me to feel that having been hurt by someone else constituted a sin on MY part."

I think someone pulled out the toxic "Book of Shoulds." That really doesn't help in this case!

[LifeHiscost]

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God has never (that I can remember) caused me to feel that having been hurt by someone else somehow constituted a sin on MY part. Those kinds of soul-destroying, insanity-inducing lies come from either cruel or deceived human beings, or the devil working through them.

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Not having been given the gift of reading other's minds, I would have to agree with you, Nico. OTOH, looking at the circumstance of personal discomfiture over what someone else's boorish or ignorant or spiteful or soul-destroying or cruel, or even well-meaning but incorrect behavior might be, it is a sign of my personal weakness when I let them (whoever they might be)determine for me whether I can remain happy or must be cursed to succumb to their (whoever they might be) particular brand of conduct. After all, there are some six billion people on this earth who often think significantly different thoughts than I do, at any given moment. If I allow even a small amount of those "different thoughts" determine for me, my happiness and contentedness, how much time will I have left to rest in the peace Jesus has promised He would give me if I follow Him?

[:"red"]"Great peace have they which love Thy Law: and nothing shall offend them." [/]Psalms 119:165

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

GJ and LHC,

While seeking the wisdom that makes for peace (and vice versa), let us ever remember (and help one another to do so as well) that the God of peace looks upon us with compassion, does not attribute human weakness or vulnerability as sin, "is touched with the feeling of our infirmities" -- and above all, that we are far happier when we refuse to allow other people to "should" all over us!

[Greenjeans]

"We are far happier when we don't let other people "should" all over us!" Have you done some recovery/12-step work yourself Nico, or maybe you're majorly into psychology? Well said! But where did it come from?

[Nicodema]

GJ, yep, both -- I'm a therapy veteran AND an informal/occasional autodidactic student of psychology. I've had some undergrad courses in it but most of the reading & study I've done independently (a) just because the subject has interested me, and ( as part of my own search for healing. I've not worked the 12 step program specifically and formally but at one time incorporated many of the steps and the principles thereof into my own therapy work.