People as Primates

[JoeErwin]

If I understand correctly, the official position of the church is that humans (and all life on earth) were created less than ten thousand years ago. This position does not align with biological and geological evidence. Some SDAs I have discussed this matter with say that they recognize that the official position of the church is not consistent with the evidence, but they suspect that most members are still literal young earth creationists. Apparently, you have to proclaim that you accept all the "tenets of faith" (including this one) to join the church, but doubting or rejecting this view will not get you thrown out of the church. As a biological psychologist and primatologist, I consider humans to be biologically connected to the other primates and mammals. I am interested in the opinions of others here on this topic.

[Gustave]

My view is that God (The Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit) created everything visible and invisible "out of nothing" in an instant. The building blocks of life, as some say, were under "intelligent design" and operated exactly as they were intended to. 

 

[JoeErwin]

When?

[Gustave]

My personal belief on when - was when God said, "let there be light" & that event was "the big bang". God flung the universe into being with all the matter, chemicals, everything and directed it to do what God designed it to do. I don't believe God made man and the animals like the ancient Greeks believed Zeus did. I believe God allows the "natural order" of things to direct things naturally. I realize that many would disagree with me on this but that's my limited understanding. 

When is that you believe the creation event took place?

[JoeErwin]

I think of creation as a process that has been going for a long time. How it began I really don't know. I respect the choice to believe everything came from a benevolent personal force, but I doubt my ability to understand what such a personality could be.

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, JoeErwin said:

I think of creation as a process that has been going for a long time. How it began I really don't know. I respect the choice to believe everything came from a benevolent personal force, but I doubt my ability to understand what such a personality could be.

That's what I believe as well.

Everything in the universe was created suddenly by God out of nothing. All the "stuff" God created out of nothing are / were the building blocks by which the process called evolution was able to do what it did. The main point (in my view) is that all of this was by design by God. I don't believe in a God that has to constantly fiddle around with stuff to keep it going - I believe in a God that has intelligence beyond comprehension - God programmed life to evolve and survive. How many eons it took before God infused the soul, I have no idea. I let it rest that it's beyond me but someday in the future God will let us know - obviously this will be after the end of days when we are made incorruptible at or immediately after the resurrection of the dead. 

There isn't a doubt in my mind that God is responsible for everything seen and unseen in the universe. I'm convinced God created all of everything that's there and things yet to be discovered and God did this out of nothing. 

[Gustave]

Quote

Joe Erwin said:  I respect the choice to believe everything came from a benevolent personal force, but I doubt my ability to understand what such a personality could be.

Absolutely, finite minds cannot fathom the infinite God. We can know what God isn't but this side of heaven we can't know fully what God is. I seriously doubt the highest-ranking archangels even know God in this sense. Mind blowing to be sure.

[JoeErwin]

At age seven I was discussing the nature of God with my brother, who was three years older. I opined that God had always existed and always would. "Forever," it seemed to me, meant having no beginning and no end. My brother thought everything had to have a beginning and an end. From then on I had the feeling that there was no end of space or time--that if one could travel in a straight line away from earth, one would never reach an end point. I still feel that way. 

[Gustave]

Well, space is expanding at [I think] the speed of light so I think you're right.

God [Father, Son & Holy Spirit] has no beginning or end so unfortunately your Brother was wrong in that but to be fair many people believe in a similar way. Interesting conversation we're having here. Thanks JoeErwin!

[JoeErwin]

I think SPACE and OCCUPIED SPACE need to be distinguished from one another. Does that make sense?

[Gustave]

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Space is occupied by planets, stars, etc. Do you mean the space existing between planets?

[JoeErwin]

When I began to imagine infinite space very long ago, I was unaware of ideas about the shape of the universe or the hypothesized "multiverse." When I became aware of these concepts, I began to suspect that what I was thinking of as "space" was something different than was meant by those who proposed boundaries. My guess is that they were referring to space occupied by matter, while I was thinking of space, whether it was occupied by matter or not. And, after all, if matter is expanding, isn't it expanding into previously unoccupied space. I am in awe of nature and its creator--whether the creator is Person, process, or something else. I'm pretty confident that I am incapable of defining, understanding, or knowing the creator. I could claim to know the nature of God, and to understand God's mind and intentions, but that would actually be dishonest. The best I would be able to do would be to project my own values into a concept of God that could not be valid. 

[JoeErwin]

Not the space between. The space beyond.

[Gustave]

You've identified why the early Church codified the Doctrine of the Trinity - the Trinity maintains "the mystery" and every heresy can be traced back to ones attempt to explain away the mystery. 

[JoeErwin]

But it all seems to me to be God created by humans, rather than the other way around. A "mystery" for sure!

[Gustave]

Man was not the 1st mover. True, many people shake-N-bake their own God but this is not the God of Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition. While it's true that many people created their own god's this isn't a valid reason to assume any so-called God is manmade. 

[Gregory Matthews]

A long way back Joe asked it the official SDA position was that God created the Earth less than 10,000 years ago.   As the SDA Church is diverse, that position is held by some.  It is not my position.  It is not the position of a large number of SDA Members.  My personal position is this:

*  The Bible teaches that God is ultimately responsible for the creation of all life.

* The Bible does not address the issue as to when God created.  IOW, the Bible does not teach any time for God's creation.

*  The Bible does not specify that our solar system was created at the same time as the Universe.  IOW the Earth could be much younger than the Universe.

*  I personally believe that a large number of SDAs believe that he Earth is much older than 6,000 years.

 

 

[JoeErwin]

Even so, isn't the official SDA position YEC and primacy of scripture and traditional belief over science and objective evidence?

[Gregory Matthews]

A relative recent change to our official statement of beliefs adds a comment to the effect that God's creation was recent.  That change is absent from the book that I have relied upon as containing our official beliefs.

I will simply say:  Large numbers of SDAs do not believe in a creation of less than 10,000 years.  My personal position remains that God created all life, and the Bible does not  specify when.

[JoeErwin]

Read Fundamental Belief #6. Is that the current official doctrine of the church or not?

[JoeErwin]

With all due respect to those who see things differently than I do, let me explain my perspective, based on more than 20 years of being reared SDA and more than 60 years after leaving. I see much of merit in Jewish traditions and the teaching attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. I also see merit in the writings of other thinkers. I also see many flaws and inconsistencies and numerous efforts to use religious "revelations" to manipulate people. If I were a Christian, which I am not, my view of the "good news" message of Jesus would be: "You have been taught that God is jealous and vindictive, but that is not true. You have been misled. You are not inherently alienated from the greatest power of the universe through no fault of your own. You are not lost. You never were. You are loved. God, the most powerful force that exists, is love. Treat each other as you wish to be treated. It isn't really so complicated. This is true, and if you believe me you will be free of much that otherwise worries you." 

[Gregory Matthews]

 

August 8,2025

Joe:  there are a series of short statements of fundamental belief, which are the official belief of the SDA Chruch.  Each of those short statements is followed by a multi-page explanation and discussion of each statement.   That expansion is not an official Church requirement of belief.  Only the short statement at the beginning is an official SDA Statement of belief.

Today, I discovered that the Belief # 6, on Creation, has officially been expanded by inserting a comment that states the SDA belief on creation to have been a recent creation by God.  I had been using an older statement of belief that did not require a recent creation.

My personal understanding of the Biblical account of creation is that it does not teach a time for the creation of the Earth.

I accept what the Bible teaches as truth, even when I do not understand how it could be true.  But, I do not believe that a time for the creation of the Earth can be taught from the Bible.

 

[JoeErwin]

The calculation from the genealogical "begats" is,  of course, the basis for the time estimate. The longevities given are very hard to believe, but if they were changed to more believable lifespans, the timing of creation would be even more recent and less likely. At some point, I found it necessary to reconsider whether scripture warranted the literal authority I attributed to it. My conclusion was that I had to change my understanding of biblical authority.

[JoeErwin]

Let me now say, nothing I say here is meant to be argumentative nor is it intended to persuade anyone to believe as I do. I am perfectly fine with everyone believing what they can.

[Gregory Matthews]

Joe, the tables that you mention should not be understood in the same Father-Son relationship that we understand today.  They might be Great  Grandfather-Grandson or Unkle Nephew.  Or they might be something else.