How do you know????

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The Bible gives all kinds of true stories, parables, and outright instruction. How do you know what is meant for YOU (me) to believe and act on and what was/is merely cultural foghorning (sorry....that's how I see keeping women silent in church)...

What is the criteria for knowing what to keep as doctrine, what to say is tradition, and what is personally relevant??? - because those all might not necessarily be the same for each person...imho.

[John317]

That's right. That's the issue and the question facing the church in the issue of women's ordination as pastors. How do we know Paul is not just giving us his personal opinion or advice instead of the commandment of God?

And if Paul is giving his opinion there, on that question, who's to keep gays from saying Paul is merely giving his opinion about gays? And so it goes...

For me at least, it comes down to whether we are willing to accept all the Bible as the sole standard of our faith, doctrine, and practice.

Another way of putting it is, do I want to know the truth? What if Paul is saying women should not be head elder or a pastor of the congregations? Would I be willing to accept that? Am I willing to accept whatever the Bible teaches, whether that is regarding the Sabbath, sexual practices, women's ordination, or anything else? It's a personal question that we each have to answer for ourselves but it is also a question the Seventh-day Adventist church must eventually face and finally resolve. Should the decision be based on popular opinion or based on what the Bible teaches?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Well, I wasn't specifically referring to the women's issue, but rather the entire dearth of biblical instructions/comments/promises from Genesis through Revelation. Is the criteria for belief/faith just a matter of personal preference? Or does God have something to do with giving someone faith? Faith to believe in SOMETHING. That that SOMETHING is right, and honorable, and just, and true.

I have been going through a *Job* (Book of Job) experience. But whereas Job had a solid base of faith (or so it seems to me), mine is woefully lacking. Where Job counted on God as being an interventional force in spite of the hell he was going through, I do not feel that. Yes, I understand some will say it does not matter if you *feel* God is there with me - He just *is*.... That is not a very satisfactory answer for me. It does not address the issue of belief and faith. It says I ought to HAVE it, but in the end, it sort of condemns me because I don't.

[bevin]

Its easy Rudywoofs.

EVERYTHING in the Bible was originally written to a particular audience other than us. Throughout the OT and the NT God's people have always believed they were allowed to reinterpret and reapply the material, adjusting to the society they were in.

On the other hand, there have always been pharisees and theologians and wowsers trying to use claims of 'but my favorite belief is obviously what God intends for you to do'.

So, God gave you a mind and a local christian community. Use them.

/Bevin

ps: Job is a mystery play - and like all plays, everything is exagerated and made clear. Don't liken yourself to Abraham - instead look at the experience of his wife...

[olger]

A response may be “You feel that way about it, I see it this way, I suppose it really doesn’t matter.” While a place exist for such ameliorations of interest in minor issues, friends, in matters of high significance they cannot be resolved on the basis of experience alone. In fact, experience is treacherously deceptive. And what may make me feel good may not be related at all to what God would have me doing.

Less apparent but equally as real is the emergence among us of a dual hermeneutic. What actually is the proper way to treat the Scriptures? Two broad schools of thought are developing within our church. In brief, they address how the Scripture will yield its instruction to us and what will that instruction say?

How then do we think of our message & mission? Very substantial conflicting currents now run through our church. The former zeal for sharing Bible truths, of working together in close community, of a world encompassing vision of a great task to be done in preparation for Christ’s return, today is diminishing.

True, a large body of believers continues to think of itself in these terms: To give sacrificially of time & funds; to rejoice over every new field entered with the gospel, to share the message with their neighbors. But increasingly, another group values more the social aspect of our worth. They find themselves embarrassed by direct evangelism, prefers humanitarian outreach to direct soul-winning, is uncomfortable with church organization, distrusts leadership, and prefers to give from its abundance rather than sacrificially to projects which they can control the use of their gift.

Are you aware dear friends, that more than half of all mission funds now being given in the Adventist church, are given with strings attached…with a line of control going to the giver of the project? That 45% that still is there comes from our Sabbath school offerings, without strings. But it is steadily declining.

The total amount being given isn’t that different, but what has happened is that there have been great gifts given by a handful of prosperous individuals, while there is a steady slow decline in the mass giving through the church. Now, that says something to us doesn’t it? Not to condemn, but simply to observe the facts that you could find anywhere in the statistics that are available.

Yes, this is the kind of life that we have entered into. There are some who hold reservations about parts of our message and our way of life. They read minimally in the Bible and the spirit of prophecy. And they seek feelings that lie beyond objective truth. Now what is needed?

What is needed is neither a lamentation nor a condemnation, but understanding and guidance. The simplest formula is to let it drift and bewail our fate. The time is long overdue when we will seek the Lord in repentance & humility. If we do not, others will.

olger

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Olger, I have absolutely no clue as to how your post relates to what I posted. Perhaps that says something about me...

**sigh**

I seem to be on a different wavelength than most others here anyhow...

[Aliensanctuary]

To me, the historical stories, parables, and direct teachings are parts of the whole.

Whether they did good or bad, the history of notable figures in the Bible usually shows us the consequences of what they did. If the history of rudywoof's life were written down and passed around among us, we would all see the consequences of your actions, whether good or bad. Perhaps we might learn something from your mistakes or successes, perhaps not.

The parables generally illustrate a simple point, like caring for those not of your own religion or the consequences of not being a good servant. As one of God's servants, do you sacrifice yourself for the good of others or are you in any way concerned about their participation in the Kingdom of God?

I'm sure there are some cultural influences in the teachings in the Bible, but the most important things for us to be concerned about are:

1. Love and honor God at all times

2. Do no harm to ourselves or others

3. Self-sacrifice for the good of others

These Three Simple Rules are basically the 10 Commandments. We don't need to worry about details like women wearing a hat or men wearing white shirts and ties in church. If we follow the three simple rules, honoring God and the well-being of others will be our focus. Trying to follow a lot of little man-made rules, such as not carrying more than 3 figs on the Sabbath, will only separate us from God.

If we live as good servants in this life, we might be chosen to be one of God's servants in the next life. Do we keep the Sabbath holy by not working unnecessarily? Do we tithe from our increase? Do we live to serve others?

If so, that's what we'll be doing in the next life, following the Three Simple Rules, if we're chosen. We'll always honor God, we'll keep the Sabbath holy, we'll tithe from the increase of what we harvest or produce, we'll be more concerned for the welfare of others than our own. That's the only way we'll be able to get along with each other for an eternity.

Our life here on Earth is a test. If we pass, we could be chosen to replace those servants who left God's Kingdom to join Satan's Kingdom. If we're selfish and keep our time and money only for ourselves, we won't be happy in God's Kingdom, so we'll have to join Satan's Kingdom, however long that will last.

We're all dragging a garbage can behind us, the kind with 2 wheels to make it easier to pull. Some of us have just a little garbage in our cans, some of our cans are overflowing with really stinky garbage. Some of us even have a shopping cart full of garbage that we push ahead of us. If we follow the 3 Simple Rules, the Celestial Garbage Collector will take away our treasured garbage and replace it with some really worthwhile things.

What would you like the Celestial Garbage Collector to give you after he incinerates your garbage? The really good stuff is already within you, it just takes a little "elbow grease" and the touch of a skillful hand to find it, the touch of Jesus Christ.

[D. Allan]

I second Bevin's response. God gave you a mind and a christian community. We are free to choose our own values regardless of what others preach at us. Conservatives, liberals, fundmentalists, evangelicals, mainstream ... all types of christians. Its enough to confuse anyone. We each are free and have the authority to decide for ourselves. Jesus did. You can too. He didn't follow the line of the religionists of his day. He was casual about the sabbath too. I align myself with what I percieve to be the good and the true... what else can we do?

~d.allan

[LifeHiscost]

It says I ought to HAVE it, but in the end, it sort of condemns me because I don't.

Whatever conclusions you might reach, Rudy, that sense of condemnation does not come from Jesus! Whether or not you have faith to believe what Jesus is asking of you will be partially resolved in your mind with the amount of time you spend in friendly conversation with Him, allowing Him to speak to you from His Word as well as returning your own thoughts and asking for understanding and wisdom He promises.

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

John 3:17

"...that no flesh should glory before God.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:"

1 Cor 1:30,31 ASV

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God" John 7:17 KJV

Blessings!!

[Woody]

Regarding :It says I ought to HAVE it, but in the end, it sort of condemns me because I don't.

Don't let anybody or any teaching condemn you. God offers you complete perfection through the blood of His SON. What else do you need. You are counted as righteous even though you are not.

There are many different understandings of God and ways to GOD. Your experience and who you have had contact with shapes your belief. Many people say it is the Bible. But, we ALL interpret the Bible to say different things.

I would never criticize anothers beliefs. I have a very good Catholic friend. I have had far better religious and Christian discussion with him than any other Adventist friend. He is a man of prayer. He loves the Lord. And he is not afraid to talk about it.

Until I started C/A ... I thought all SDAs were afraid to talk about God. We would invite others to lunch after church. I would want to talk of spiritual things including the sermon. Do you think that any of these good Adventist would want to talk about Jesus? NO. They wanted to talk about the lastest movie they saw.

It is up to the Holy Spirit to teach you what you need to know. AND the speed and direction the Holy Spirit does that is different with Each saint. We do not have a generic Holy Spirit for everyone.

SO Pam ... Do not feel condemned. God Loves you as you are right now. And in time you will gain new understandings as the Holy Spirit deems it appropriate and you are willing and able.

GOD BLESS YOU RUDYWOOFS as you and the rest of us GROW in the Spirit.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone!

This is a rather rough time for me, as I have cut off all communications with my bookmarked pagan/witch/occultic forums, blogs, and websites as of yesterday. These were people who have been my friends for a long, long time. I miss the camaraderie.

[Taylor]

Glad you are here Rudywoofs!!

[Aliensanctuary]

1-1-7

Years ago I was involved in a cult of ex-SDA's. To this day, I still miss the close spiritual fellowship we had in our early in-home church meetings. The leadership of the group, we realized later at the time of our expulsion, were manipulating us with mind-control techniques and expected our unquestioning obedience.

At some point in time, Satan and his team will present a convincing argument to the whole world that he was indeed wronged by God and that most of our Christian beliefs and practices are based on mythology and distortions and manipulations.

Only those who have built a shield of protection by believing and living the Word of God can resist the powerful, lying arguments of Satan. To the world, Satan is the liberator of God's slaves, the protector of mankind, determined to rescue the world from God's destructive wrath and instead bring wealth and health and power to the pathetic and diseased human race wallowing in the mud, crying like a helpless baby.

To those who overcome their selfish, self-centered, evil-loving natures, a gift that cannot be valued awaits. After Satan, his kingdom, and all of the evil he created are swept away, those who have chosen to be God's servants will experience a life they couldn't have even dreamed about. Under their feet are the ashes of the faithless and unbelieving, destroyed because their lives were permanently contaminated with the incurable Virus of Evil, by choice.

Created by Satan, the Virus of Evil has mutated into countless forms, cursing every single life that ever lived on this planet. Don't be fooled by his distortions and illusions. The Road to Babylon leads to Death. The Road to Zion leads to Life.

Only diseased and unhappy people want to die to be free of physical or psychological pain. We all want to be in a better place in the next life. Today, we must choose whether to live or die. Today, we must choose our master, a simple choice between Good and Evil.

God sent messengers back in time to tell us what the fate of Satan and his kingdom is, and, what the rewards are for those who follow him. No garbage from this life is worth not getting a ticket to God's Everlasting Kingdom of Peace. The only way to get a ticket for his Kingdom is to do whatever Jesus Christ told us to do. We can read his words for ourselves, then do them with the power of his Spirit.

We can’t get a ticket just by performing weekly stand-up sit-down ceremonies and listening to lifeless, canned, weekly sermons by a bureaucratic hireling. He’s only selling worthless, counterfeit tickets, the same ones Satan is handing out for free.

[Gail]

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone!

This is a rather rough time for me, as I have cut off all communications with my bookmarked pagan/witch/occultic forums, blogs, and websites as of yesterday. These were people who have been my friends for a long, long time. I miss the camaraderie.

Pam, Jesus promised that when He left this earth, that He would not leave us comfortless, that He would send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. That is a promise also for you!

Someone said above:

Quote:

It is up to the Holy Spirit to teach you what you need to know. AND the speed and direction the Holy Spirit does that is different with Each saint. We do not have a generic Holy Spirit for everyone.

I think there is light in this. If the religion of God was something we could explain easily, then we would not even need Him for we could understand His mysteries. We would be lowering Him down to something human or earthly.

But we do need to relate- otherwise even God is not able to reach us!

If you spend time with God's Word, which is called a "living" word, you will know which things are for you. The Holy Spirit knows whether you need conviction of sin or comfort or instruction- whatever! And sometimes the information makes a lot of sense and sometimes it sticks in your mind and bugs you until you grapple and pray about it with Him.

That is the experience that is YOURS, and God is well able to do it even for you! I know that He has before for you and that He will continue to do so!

:)

[Robert]

...What is the criteria for knowing what to keep as doctrine, what to say is tradition, and what is personally relevant???

Your conscience...your understanding, even thought it might be technically wrong, to you it is right. God takes you where you are. If not it would be salvation by theology. Besides, God looks at our motive - our hearts. You can do the right thing for the wrong reason. Or you can do wrong thing for the right reason.

For example, many Christians keep Sunday. I disagree with their theology, but my point is that they can be keeping the wrong day, but for the right reason. Where many Adventists keep the right day, but for the wrong reason.

Confused?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

yes - I am confused...

**muddles things over in mind**

If my conscience is my *guiding light* for spiritual guidance, and God is the One who guides my conscience, then why was I such a happy camper practicing witchcraft? I can't believe God guided me to that.

Is conscience necessarily discernment?

[Gail]

Pam, that is a good point. The Bible does says that "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9) Your suspicions match what God's Word tells us about ourselves.

Discernment is VERY important! Corrie Ten Boom wrote once that "it is a poor soldier indeed that can't recognize the enemy." I think you are on exactly the right track.

In John 7:17 Jesus promises us that "If any man will do his will(if you are willing), he shall know of the doctrine..."

Take that as a basis for prayer and wait to see how the Lord unfolds events for you

:)

[Woody]

REgarding "If my conscience is my *guiding light* for spiritual guidance, and God is the One who guides my conscience, then why was I such a happy camper practicing witchcraft? I can't believe God guided me to that."

...............................................................

PAM ... Thank you. I appreciate your good questions. WE are blessed to have you here. You have made a very good point.

But ... What Robert says is so true.

GOD accepts you were you are. He loves you so much no matter what condition your conscience is in.

REDDWOOD

[Woody]

Let me add another one. Pam ... Sin is always very attractive. It is made to look as close as the real thing in Chritianity. But the fake will only last for a short time. The real lasts forever.