Stepping on Toes

[Key Guy]

I am starting to get fed up!!

The pastor of our church here in S Florida is proposing, along with perhaps dozens of SDA churches in North America, to join the current fad of becoming a 'Community Congregation", wanting us to rename our church to something that avoids the words "church" and Seventh-day Adventist" in the title.

What I see is that many protestant Christian groups are successfully focusing on growing their numbers by adding unchurched folks to their congregartions and not taking away worshipers from other churches.

We Christians are now in a mindset of not wanting to step on the toes of the other congregations in our towns and cities, but the unchurched are considered 'fair game' for all.

How does this possibly meet the last day needs of God's people when God in Revelation clearly tells us to call out those of His remnant who are languishing in 'Babylon'? How are we obeying His word when we avoid preaching the clear truth of His character and Law? There are already too many congregations that are focused on the social fellowship, rock & roll good time worship services and smooth happy words of generic Christian beliefs, all to the sad point that the starving remnant are simply not being fed.

God's messages to the people of that last days are ones of obedience, impending judgement, and the only way to get off of this rock alive (throught the blood of Christ).

Can you imagine for a moment that John the Baptist, William Miller or Ellen and James White would favor a generic approach to only reaching the unchurched? Like our pioneers with a 'last day' message for their generation, we have lots to share and a short time to do it.

I'm not saying to throw away social fellowship or do away with reaching the unchurched at all. I'm strongly suggesting that we refocus on our God-given messages for our time, make a renewed effort to present the 3 Angels messages to God's remnant and not be concerned about "stealing" the searchers from other churches. I'm also suggesting that we return to being bold in our identification as God's remnant people by (among other things) bringing back the use of the title: 'Seventh-day Adventist' to our church signage.

The longer we avoid preaching the truth of God's character, His judgement and our duty to obey His law, the longer we are going to remain here, nestled in our country club congregations.

What do you think?

[Naomi]

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The longer we avoid preaching the truth of God's character, His judgement and our duty to obey His law, the longer we are going to remain here, nestled in our country club congregations.

Absolutely agree. Thankfully, in my area we are proud to be SDA's, and I don't know of any movements to become a 'Community Congregatoin' We have way too many non-denominational and community churches it is nice to be set apart from the wolves.

One thing that I heard a lot of in Romania is things like: "They don't work hard like Adventists", "They don't clean like Adventists", "They don't train their children like Adventists", "They don't love their church and church family like Adventist" etc. I think you get the message.

They are proud of who and what their church and life style represents. Why shouldn't we be the same. We have the end-time message, the health message, but often don't appreciate who and what we are. Too bad ... so sad.

[Gregory Matthews]

Is it "either or?"

Could it be both with some congregations on, and some the other?

[Key Guy]

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Is it "either or?"

Sadly, I believe it is and more tilted toward the 'generic church' in North America than other places.

Proof?

1) We are sending pastors and conference officials to South America to learn from our churches there about why they are growing so well.

2) We are studying and adopting methods from the generic Sunday-keeping Christian churches.

3) When was the last time you heard an enthusiastic sermon on the last days, the Second Coming, the last plagues, the 3 Angels messages, etc?

4) Does anyone remember the term 'Primitive Godliness' anymore, or is that a banned phrase from Adventism?

5) Name a group that is studying The Great Controversy... anyone?... anyone at all?

I wish that we had a mixture of fellowship and The Loud Cry. I just don't see it nor do I see a reverse trend toward preparation and readiness for the dreaded Time of Trouble.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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How are we obeying His word when we avoid preaching the clear truth of His character and Law? There are already too many congregations that are focused on the social fellowship, rock & roll good time worship services and smooth happy words of generic Christian beliefs, all to the sad point that the starving remnant are simply not being fed.

Well, I agree that the gospel needs to be proclaimed and urgently. But if ANYONE had come at me with *demonical* Christian fire in their eyes, and histrionically used their finger to vigorously point in their Bible to the hell and brimstone that awaited me, I'd have turned around and never come back. It isn't right to give shoe leather for someone to chew on when milk is needed.

I thought church was SUPPOSED to be for fellowship. That's what people keep telling me....though, frankly, I've yet to experience that little gem. **snorts** I get more fellowship here at C/A than I ever experienced in a church.

Not using the SDA name in the official title of a church, i.e., listing in the phone book or on the internet, smacks to me of being disingenuous. How would any SDA visitors know where to go? (Though it might be an eye-opener for an Adventist to go to a Messianic Jewish service or one of the other 7th day believing congregations.)

[Key Guy]

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But if ANYONE had come at me with *demonical* Christian fire in their eyes, and histrionically used their finger to vigorously point in their Bible to the hell and brimstone that awaited me, I'd have turned around and never come back.

If I was understood as saying that, I am sorry. It is not what I was saying. I prurposely avoided the 'fire & brimstone' part because that is over the top. On the other hand, at what point will we be filled with such horror at the thought of losing our loved ones for eternity that we will compel them to listen to the warning God has given to us through His prophets, including Mrs. White?

We can play church for only so long.

[Dr. Shane]

My local church has been studying the book of Revelation for the past year at prayer meeting. A lot of this on Adventist TV too. I think more Adventist TV is a wonderful tool for Adventists to invite their friends into their homes during crusades and watch them with them.

I don't have a problem with the community church concept but I do have a problem dropping the name Adventist. A name like "God's Grace Adventist Church," "Redemption Adventist Church," or "Faith & Love Adventist Church" don't bother me at all.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

But wasn't fire and brimstone the sermon topics du jour of the 17th, 18th, and 19th (the EGW Victorian era)? From the accounts I've read, the growth of Christianity grew exponentially during that time - but many times by playing on the fears and superstitions of the common masses. But perhaps that was the only way anyone would listen... I don't know. I don't think Jesus used that kind of technique when He spoke to people. From what I've read, he didn't mince words with the Pharisees, but used riveting compassion when speaking with people en masse or individually.

I would consider *playing church* as having a hireling as a pastor, and having little plastic smilie faces lined up on all the pews...with a few wolves in sheep's clothing taking up the offering and sitting on the church board (erhmmm....that might be a slightly extreme view).

Just imho.

[Neil D]

I wonder if you are thinking that a Traditional Adventist church service is the ONLY type of church service that God wants....?

If so, I hate to break the news to you, but that would work only if everyone were made out of the same mold... Granted, we all might be a bit moldy, but we are definately not cut from the same mold.

My pastor and I, along with a few others, did some studys on church growth...We tested our theory on the historical adventist church, along with current growing models... Our conclusions are pretty basic... For church growth to happen, you must have home bible study groups. Those groups can be pretty loose as to how indepth they want to study, but meet during the week and in the home they must. Church services are merely something for the non-believer, the traveling Christian to experience in the hopes of making them a part of the local body.

As for loosing the name, I would reconsider various other names....and I would take into account the other local churches... Each church should have a flavor of thier own, unique to thier situation...Not necessarily traditional, not necessarily congregational, and not necessarily a seeker service, and not necessarily named 'adventist' [but that last thought should have factored into the thinking of other local churches and what they are doing].

Ok, that's my opinion...take it for what it is worth...$0.02

[Key Guy]

Neil, I would ask you to define "a Traditional Adventist church service". I'm not advocating the old Methodist-of-the-1800's style of worship, but I am regretting our inclusion of Top 40 generic Christian music. That's the opinion of a 3rd gen SDA who derives more blessings from the songs in our hymnal, even the old one that was replaced in the 80's (I think).

But this isn't about music... it's about our seeming to want to be copycats of generic Chistian churches and what we are giving up to match their style and marketing.

Pam, I agree that using superstitions is wrong... I'm not so sure about how bad the use of fear is... and we should avoid scaring the members into obedience. I AM afraid of the concept of being eternally lost and that's what makes my love and appreciation for God's way out all the more intense. What am I doing to educate the masses about where the wicked are heading and what our Alternative is?

My concern about 'playing church' is that there is too little of the intensity that comes with the final warning. It's all a part of Laodicea (sp?) and our apathy, I'm sure.

[Dr. Shane]

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I hate to break the news to you

Do you really hate breaking the news? [hiding under rock]

[lazarus]

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What do you think?

Here's my take Ken.

I've pastoring a church since the summer that has had a year on year decline in attendance since 1990. Most of the young adults have left. They are a very traditional church. Pretty much they do church like most SDA churches in America. There were over 30 baptisms in 2002 and only 2 of those people are still attending the church!

I felt the need for revival and REFORMATION. Let me drop a quote from EGW to explain what I mean.

Review and Herald, Feb. 25, 1902

A revival and a reformation must take place under the ministration of the Holy Spirit. Revival and reformation are two different things. Revival signifies a renewal of spiritual life, a quickening of the powers of mind and heart, a resurrection from the spiritual death. Reformation signifies a reorganization, a change in ideas and theories, habits and practices. Reformation will not bring forth the good fruit of righteousness unless it is connected with the revival of the Spirit. Revival and reformation are to do their appointed work, and in doing this work they must blend.-

I think as SDA's we are good at revival but clueless about reformation in terms of how to do church. The evangelical Chrsitian world have some good tools to help any church reform and sustain the revival that can be bought to a church.

We have done the Natrual church development survey which has told us that our weakest area is "loving relationships" We're working on that. That may explain why 30 converts no longer attend.

We are doing a community needs assessment to see how we can serve more effectively. Our church, like most SDA churches has remained aloof from the community.

We have the band and the praise team every week. The service is more up tempo. The goal is to "make God look good". Its is an attemt to modernise the worship. To connect more with the youth and the outside world.

I'm thinking and praying about a name change. Name changes have a biblical precident or two, Abram, Sarai, Simon, Saul. God very often initiated a name change to signify a change in the role, standing or calling of an individual. If our church were to change its name it would be a signal to the world that the personality/character/role/ calling of our church has changed.

In the past six months I have preached about anger, how to solve conflict, gossip, the nature and charater of the church evangelism. I believe I am preaching about the 3 angels message but not in the traditional way. I use powerpoint, movies bullet points etc. I'll do a prophesy series etc. but It will probably not be the traditional material that most SDA's use!

Its working for us so far but it only been a few months. We have more contacts than we can handle. Our attendance is up about 25% but of course I'm in a honeymoon period It is the fashion, it the contemporary approach but I feel what I am doing is biblical and thats what counts. I'm in the business of caring for sheep and getting new ones. I Rick Warren has a Biblical and applicable idea I'm goona use it.

Not every church has to make these changes. If your church is already vibrant, biblical, growing, engaged in the community keep on pressing on!

There's alot more I could say but this post is already long.

[Dr. Shane]

I definately believe our church needs to be open to new ways of worship and means of presenting our end-time message. I do not think we need a new message, just new ways of presenting it.