A Deeper Look At Historicism

[Challenger]

 A Deeper look at Historicism, 

The following quote was taken from the SDA BIBLICAL RESEARCH INSTITUTE web site, an article written by Jon Paulien, titled “The 1260 Day in the Book of Revelation.”

(Exhibit 1 ) “Adventists themselves also have much they can learn in this area. The exegetical and theological perspectives of mainstream scholarship can provide fresh windows into aspects of Scripture we may have overlooked in the past. A fresh look at history, the Scriptures and theology can re-invigorate a historicist approach with its focus on the Year-Day Principle. Truth has no fear of investigation, it can afford to be fair.”

My endeavor of this post is to  provide you with that fresh look at scripture and theology. Let me begin by telling you I am a first generation Adventist and  studied my way out of a main stream christianity into Adventism at the age of thirty three, and still remain forty five years latter. I am very confident that we are correct in our doctrinal teachings, but can’t say the same for our understanding of most of apocalyptic prophecy. In this post I will address just one major concern. Early scholars of Historicism, mistakenly assumed the opening of the seals and trumpets began in the post apostolic period. 

(Exhibit 2) The Dating of The Seals and Trumpets According to our (SDA Bible Commentaries, volume 7, pgs. 106, 108) “Victorinus bishop of Pettau, (died 303) “He apparently introduced the principle of repetition as characteristic of the Apocalypse that the seven seals, trumpets, and vials [?] are not consecutive, but repetitive, covering the Christian Era…” No scriptural evidence to support his belief is given in our commentary.

 

(Exhibit 3) (Same commentary, pg. 111) quote: “The exposition of the trumpets spreads over fifteen centuries beginning with Victorinus in the 3rd. Century…Most expositors dealt with both time periods, the five months or the 150 years of the fifth trumpet, and the hour-day-month and year of the sixth trumpet.”Note: No mention in our commentary of expositors challenging Victorinus dating of the trumpets. It appears to me they all assumed his dating was correct. This I assume you do as well.

 

(Exhibit 4) Again using our (SDA Bible Commentaries, vol., 7, pg. 130) In conclusion of the chapter titled, “Interpretation of the Apocalypse,” we find this quote. “Obviously, this discussion of the history of prophetic interpretation is brief, all too brief to do full justice to the subject. It has not been possible to turn aside to consider those basic principles of interpretation that must serve as the criteria of the worth of the various views that have been held by expositors through the centuries. Nevertheless, the simple recital of those views, which reveal an ever enlarging understanding of the meaning of the apocalyptic symbols of Revelation, can prove of help in interpretation of the last book of the Bible.”

,Here our commentary acknowledges the importance of “the basic principles of interpretation that must serve as the criteria  “of the worth”  of the various views, though only revealing the day-years principle. Therefore, without understanding the other basic principles of interpretation one cannot determine if those interpretations in that chapter have any valid worth at all. We are left to assume they are. Do you not agree?  The last sentence of that paragraph, based on my knowledge of Historicism is the foundation on which Historicism is built, “a simple recital of historical views void of valid laws of interpretation”, 

  A former Adventist scholar, Larry Wilson, now deceased, who clearly understood and believed in our major doctrines, could see that Historicism did not address, chronology, language types, or what constitutes a legitimate fulfillment.  Mr. Wilson in his early studies of apocalyptic prophecy became frustrated at the number of various interpretations, and the lack of any rules of interpretation in support of them. In his mind he reasoned if God is the author of apocalyptic prophecy, would they not also be governed by His natural laws, like the rest of His creation. Thus, over a period of six years he studied fulfilled apocalyptic prophecy looking for consistent behavior that might prove to be God’s laws. Having observed four laws he wrote them out in his own words as they are not written within prophecy, but rather observed, just as it is with God’s natural laws in all of His creation.

This first Rule He discovered was: Each prophecy has a beginning point and an ending point in time, and the events within each prophecy occur in the order in which they are given. This chronological behavior may sound simple, but it has profound ramifications. Consider the results of violating this behavior. If the events given within a particular prophecy do not occur in the order given, who has the authority to declare the order of events?  When the fulfilled elements in Daniel and Revelation are aligned with widely published historical records, the validity of Rule One proves true every time! The prophecies in Daniel began unfolding more than 2,600 years ago. Some of the prophecies in Revelation began unfolding 2,000 years ago. These lengthy periods of time contain a sufficient sample to validate the four rules that spring from Daniel’s architecture. 

 Example (Rev. 8:2-5) the termination of the service at the alter of incense, Adventist have moved then out of their chronological order for the following reason, (SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7, pg. 787) “According to the view that Seventh- day Adventists have favored, the cessation of the angel’s ministry at the altar of incense is symbolic of the end of the ministration of Christ for mankind-the close of probation, the voices, thunderings, lightnings, and earthquake that ensue when the angel cast the censer into the earth describe events to take place at the end of the seventh trumpet, following the opening of the temple (ch. 11:19);…”Some prefer to see ch. 8:3-5, not so much in its chronological as in its logical, relationship to the seals and trumpets.”

 In this interpretation, our church fathers acknowledge the chronological order but altered it to fit their logical reasoning. Is this any different than the Catholic Church removing the fourth commandment and making the tenth into two? In both cases the word of God has been altered to conform with the churches beliefs. This is precisely why we must have and follow valid laws on interpretation to rule out one’s bias. Since this prophecy clearly reveals that at the end of Christ ministry at the altar of incense in heaven, there will be  world wide, “voices, thunderings, lightnings, and a earthquake,” for ALL must be made aware. To the extent that God has purposely linked the heavenly event to literal manifestations here on earth. He has done this because we cannot see into heaven, but when we see these manifestations on a world wide scale, we will understand that the service at the altar of incense has terminated. Since such events have yet to be witnessed worldwide at the same time. We have to conclude by faith, based on God’s word that the trumpet judgments are yet future, and not post apostolic (395-419 A.D.) as third century scholars believed. Right? 

A future timing of the trumpets harmonizes perfectly with the Feast of Trumpets celebrated for nine days before the Day of Atonement on the tenth. The trumpets blew evening and morning to warn Israel that probation would close on the Day of atonement. This warning was for the living. Early expositor of Historicism believed the trumpets began after the apostolic period, chronology proves this is not true. What sense does it make for God to have started the trumpets seventeen centuries ago to warn billions of people, who would long be dead before the close of probation would actually near its close?  Consider also, the logic of rightfully interpreting the first four trumpet literally and they destroy a third of the earth, putting the world in survival mode, while at the same time the three angles messages is being preached. Would that not be more effective than the work of our church, for the past 163 years? As of this date Adventist make up less than 1/3 of 1% of the world’s population.  Who but Adventist have any concern about the three angles messages?

 Based on these facts the trumpets are yet future, our understanding of them should be reconsidered in light of their correct timing. This mandates they are literal, not symbolic, as they clearly destroy a third of the earth during the great tribulation.  Are you mentally prepared for these judgments? No! Why, because we have been sincerely misinformed.   

 I pray these insights will provide you that fresh perspective and cause you to reconsider the timing of the trumpet judgements. Too, we must remember that age does not make error into truth. 

 Respectfully Submitted

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Asia Joe]

On 2/5/2026 at 11:39 PM, Challenger said:

 Based on these facts the trumpets are yet future, our understanding of them should be reconsidered in light of their correct timing. This mandates they are literal, not symbolic, as they clearly destroy a third of the earth during the great tribulation.  Are you mentally prepared for these judgments? No! Why, because we have been sincerely misinformed. 

I do not prepare for these or other judgments. 

My focus is to inform others of need to reform their life or revival of current members. 

I have found that people are not responsive to our warnings anymore. Even secular people see we are in the end times. 

What I think people need now, is someone to show them what God wants from them. 

[Challenger]

Joe, you say “you do not prepare for these or other judgments.” Am I to understand you to mean, you know the trumpets judgments are coming but do not dwell on them? 

If I am correct in my understanding than you don’t believe as we teach, that the first opened in 395 AD, and was symbolic of the Goths vs. Western Rome, instead you believe they are future and literal?  

Are you comfortable knowing our early church fathers moved Rev. 8:2-5 out of it's chronological order, to fit their reasoning?

[Hanseng]

Problem here is that neither of you appear to understand what Christ accomplished on the cross. According to Hebrews 10, Christians will never again face judgment. We have been perfected forever. It's unfortunate that you think all SDA doctrines are correct. They are not. Generally speaking, most do not understand the work of Christ. We were fascinated by trumpets, seals, marks, beasts, time prophecy rather than Jesus. 1888 was more or less a hoax, a distraction from the gospel of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Many think of Jesus as a servant to the law instead of the law as a servant to Christ. We are not saved by faith plus commandment keeping. We are saved by faith alone. Until we understand that and find rest in Christ, all the rest is double talk and nonsense.   

[Challenger]

Hanseng, I would most likely dialog with you on “What Christ accomplished on the cross.”  However, this is a thread that I have started on “Historicism,” of which you have deviated. In showing respect toward me would you please delete your post, and start a separate thread of your own topics. It would be much appreciated and less confusing for readers to follow. Thank You.  

[Hanseng]

Challenger,

You can appeal to the moderators to remove my post My understanding of this forum is that posts can only be deleted within 10 minutes of the original submission.  The idea of a future judgment, with its possible condemnation, many of us have come to regard with trepidation, if not loathing.  It contradicts the gospel of the NT

[Gustave]

Challenger, when you say you studied your way out of a mainstream Christianity tradition might I ask what that tradition was (that you originally were within) and what that faith traditions understanding of historicism was at the time you gave it up for SDA'ism? 

[Challenger]

I grew up through my teens in a small county church, which was non-denominational. Then during my first marirage of nine years as a Methodist, first year of second marriage non-denominational again, then wife and I studied our way into the SDA faith, of which I remain today. I had no knowledge or interest in prophecy until my second marriage which is why my wife and I joined a Revelation Seminar of which our friends suggested, being Adventist. We did and latter joined the church. I have no idea what method on interpretation either of my former churches adhere to, if any. I know both taught a secret rapture and other teachings that are invalid. 

[Gustave]

I would agree that the secret rapture in an invalid teaching. Historicism is of interest to me, not because I believe its correct, but because of the groups that advocates it.

• Branch Davidians
• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Seventh-day Adventists
• Christadelphians

I understand that initially Martin Luther and other reformers accepted Historicism but as time went on the Churches went on to realize that the position was error ridden. Would you say that without the historicist interpretation the Seventh-day Adventist church would collapse? The Catholic Church has to be the system of Lucifer and Papacy is the little horn of the Book of Daniel. Without this and other hard-line teachings such as Christ could have sinned, rotted in the tomb and eternal ceased to exist would the SDA Church still be able to compete in the market place for souls without Historicism? 

[Challenger]

Gustave, the Historicist method of interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy is not one of our 28 fundamental beliefs. I believe the church would survive with some shaken out. But it will never change as religions never moves from their foundational teachings. All religions teach truth and assumed truths. In Rev. 13, the beast from the sea has seven heads having blasphemous names, they are the major religions of the world, and one of them has a fatal wound that had been (past tense) healed when it comes up out of the sea. Catholicism is the head having the healed wound, but all teach error. This is why God will personally select 144,000 servant/prophets according to Rev. 7:1-4 before He releases his four angels to bring destruction upon the earth. (seven trumpet judgments) These servant/prophets having the spirit of prophecy will gather in the great harvest proclaiming the three angels messages of Rev. 14, they will be the firstfruits of that harvest. 

Historicism seem to follow chronology within apocalyptic prophecy at times but fail to realize it as God's natural law, that must be followed at all times. In regard to Dan. 7,  we do follow the chronology part way through and understand correctly the little horn to be the papacy. However, when it comes to the courtroom event in vss. 9 &10, 21,22 we do not know that it took place at the end of the 1260 years of the papacy's supreme rule over Europe know as the Dark Ages. The Father during this event with all heaven present issued a restraining order against the papacy and it's power was taken away.(Fatal Wound) Too, at this same event according to Rev, 4&5 Jesus was found worthy to receive the book sealed with seven seals and in chapter six begins to open its seals, remember the court was seated in 1798. With this knowledge we know that the opening of the seals did not start as Historicist claim in the first century AD. 

If we were to change our belief on Historicism, which will never happen, i see no reason why we would have to change our belief that Christ dying the second death on the cross, could have resulted in Christ eternal death, and mankind without a savior, had he not lived without sin. I know this will get your blood boiling, sorry, no not sorry. 

 

[Gustave]

The Smalcald Articles indeed claim that the Pope is the "Very Antichrist" yet confessional Lutheran's today hold that the church is in the period of the millennium. In other words, Lutheran confessional identity collided with hermeneutics and the result of Bible study in this area resulted in a shift. When looking at early SDA history I'd say that the SDA Church has, in some areas, followed the same path.

The SDA's (from my understanding) no longer [publicly] claim that God the Father has a body with flesh and organs yet according to Ellen White and decades of Sabbath Herald articles the Personality of God Doctrine was a "foundational" or "Pillar" Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventism. What I'm saying is that the SDA Church indeed has changed from its fundamental teachings at least pertaining to the Personality of God. 

How is the Historicist interpretation which you say is not a fundamental belief of Seventh-day Adventism more important than the SDA fundamental belief that God The Father has an actual body? I'm attempting to zero in on how you view these things prior to discussing historicism with you. 

[Challenger]

On 2/7/2026 at 9:54 AM, Challenger said:

Joe, you say “you do not prepare for these or other judgments.” Am I to understand you to mean, you know the trumpets judgments are coming but do not dwell on them? 

If I am correct in my understanding than you don’t believe as we teach, that the first opened in 395 AD, and was symbolic of the Goths vs. Western Rome, instead you believe they are future and literal?  

Are you comfortable knowing our early church fathers moved Rev. 8:2-5 out of it's chronological order, to fit their reasoning?

Joe, you have not responded to this post. I am not surprised, because  personal experience reveals that when I ask fellow Adventist hard questions they refuse to answer if their answer is unsupportive of our teachings. I assume your silence to say, I will not be baited into answering any question that wold indicate otherwise, most likely fearful of what other Adventist on this site might think of you. 

 This is the same response that Jeremiah received during his ministry, the nation refusing to concede to their errors and make corrections. Thus, they continued in error and went into captivity. I believe God will hold our church accountable as well, when during the tribulation He chooses 144,000 servant/prophets (Rev. 7:1-4) to carry the three angels messages into all the world in fulfillment of that prophecy bypassing our church, since we continue to be silent when presented with Biblical truths such as I share here on this site. 

However, that does not prevent individuals from moving forward it the light of progress truths. So, again I present you with the question:

Do you think our teaching that the first trumpet sounded in 395 AD, and is symbol of the wars between the Goths, and Western Rome, or based on what I have previously shared, believe they are yet future, the first four being literal, and will harm one third of the earth? 

Or that I am sincerely mistaken and can prove otherwise by scripture alone, which is your duty in the spirit of Christ. 

 

[Challenger]

2 hours ago, Gustave said:

How is the Historicist interpretation which you say is not a fundamental belief of Seventh-day Adventism more important than the SDA fundamental belief that God The Father has an actual body? I'm attempting to zero in on how you view these things prior to discussing historicism with you. 

Am not aware that our early fathers believed that God the Father has a body as ours. Should direct that question to one of our moderators. 

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, Challenger said:

Am not aware that our early fathers believed that God the Father has a body as ours. Should direct that question to one of our moderators. 

No need to do that - I've covered this extremely well documented Doctrine throughout the life and ministry of Ellen White, from the 1850's through to the book Adventists believe in the late 1980's. 

[Asia Joe]

10 hours ago, Challenger said:

Joe, you have not responded to this post. I am not surprised, because  personal experience reveals that when I ask fellow Adventist hard questions they refuse to answer if their answer is unsupportive of our teachings. I assume your silence to say, I will not be baited into answering any question that wold indicate otherwise, most likely fearful of what other Adventist on this site might think of you. 

Your post is impatient.  

I believe in the Pre-Advent Judgment. 

I do not prepare for all the things you have mentioned, because, as I have stated in other posts. I believe we are in the time of the Judgment of the living. Living peoples names are being called into judgment. 

To me the only thing that is important in any timeline is whether we are pardoned in the judgment of the living.  Life on this planet is coming to an end, because God is causing that. So I focus on the current ongoing judgment of the living. 

[Challenger]

10 hours ago, Joe Knapp said:

To me the only thing that is important in any timeline is whether we are pardoned in the judgment of the living.  Life on this planet is coming to an end, because God is causing that. So I focus on the current ongoing judgment of the living. 

Joe, do appreciate your response. But still you are avoiding my question as to the beginning of the trumpets., why???

Yes I believe the pre-advent judgment started in 1844. But I do not believe the judgment of the living has started yet.  Do you think the judgment of the living began, in 1844 or latter?  Something to think about. Adventist make up less than 1/3 of 1 percent of the world’s population at this time. Assuming that all Adventist believe as you that the judgment of the living is now ongoing, than over 99 percent are unawares. Does it seem reasonable to you that a loving God would secretly pass judgment on them before their death and the ability to choose?

Example: What if Mike a non christian, name comes up during his teens/wild days of youth, and he is judged as being lost. So the judgement continues over the years to come.  In the meantime Mike meets and marries a christian lady and surrenders  his life to Christ, and they both die as christians.  During the millennium reign Mike’s wife is upset because Mike is not among the redeemed. She inquires of Christ why Mike is not present, and Christ informs her that during the time of the judgment of the living when Mike’s name came up, he was not saved, thus I  judged him as lost. How do you think Mike’s wife would feel about Christ’s judgment of Mike?  Should you understand it differently please share that with me. 

I understand it as follows: First a God of love will not judge the living without them being made aware that they are being judged. He has predetermined that 1260 days (Rev.11:1-3) will be enough time to judge the last of the living  before He comes. Understand that at that time most of the living will have no idea who Christ is. Not a problem for God. He will shock the world with a display of His assume power, by destroying on third of the earth in the manner that He revealed to John 2,500 years earlier as recorded in Rev.8 & 9, the trumpet judgments. In the time of the old testament trumpets were used as means to get peoples attention. Thus, God will use the seven trumpets judgments to get the attention of the living, Christian and non-christians alike. When God takes from the living all hope that the world will survive, many for the first time will realize their need of a savior. 

During this time the first of the three angles messages will go out into all the world by means of the 144,000 servant/ prophets of (Rev.7: 1-4.) That message as you know is, “ Fear God [literally] and give Him glory[honor] for the hour[short period of time/1260 days] of His judgment [of the living] has come. Worship Him who made the heavens, the earth, and sea, and springs of water. [Note: out of the heavens comes the fiery hail/ meteoric shower, and two asteroids, which destroy one third of the earth sea and springs of water] during the first four trumpets. Can you see here that God in His mercy will do the extreme to alert the living that they will be judged based on their decision to worship Him. And during the entire time of the trumpets God will  plead with the living by sending them two other messages warning them not to worship the beast and his image and take his mark.  Thus, by the end of the trumpet judgements all “the living’ will have chosen to either worship Christ by rejecting the mark, or to worship the beast by taking him mark. Therefore, the judgment of the living will be complete and the living will know that they were being judge by the God of creation.

 As the third angel has previously warned those who do receive the mark of the beast will now receive the wrath of God poured out in full measure during the seven last plagues, just before Christ comes for His redeemed. Now based on how I understand the judgment of the living and how you envision it, ask yourself which of the two versions align best with prophecy and at the same time magnify the love and mercy of God.

[Challenger]

Another thought. Of the two versions, yours or mine, which one would most likely reap the largest number of redeemed out of the world's living, knowing that only 33% are christian?