The Investigative Judgment or Pre-Advent Judgement.

[Asia Joe]

Yes I believe they are literal. 

Then the angel ^[d]took the ^[e]censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder and sounds, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake. Nasb

Quote

Does what you sense they are, agree with what we as Adventist think they are? 

I don't know. I have never heard a clear simple explanation to this. 

9 hours ago, Challenger said:

Too, do you understand why the service at the altar of incense will end before the trumpets begin?

I have always believed that this signals the close of probation. 

[Challenger]

On 4/25/2026 at 6:06 AM, Joe Knapp said:

don't know. I have never heard a clear simple explanation to this. 

On 4/24/2026 at 9:05 PM, Challenger said:

Joe, I'm thinking you are an Adventist, and if so I always refer to our SDA Bible Commentaries on any text to understand what our corporate interpretation is. However, I don't agree with everything stated in them. But nonetheless one will know what we as a church teach. I would suggest that you to find out what we as a Church teach on the trumpets

 

On 4/25/2026 at 6:06 AM, Joe Knapp said:

I have always believed that this signals the close of probation. 

Well you are right in a sense. To better understand the heavenly event of Rev. 8: 2-5, one must understand what the earthly sanctuary services at the Altar of Incense (AOI) was foreshadowing. One should note that this altar was within the sanctuary itself in the Holy place, and it was overladen with gold, whereas the altar of burnt offerings was in the courtyard and it was overladen with bronze. Too, only the priest offered up offerings of year old lambs morning and evenings. This was called the Continual or the Daily. At the brazen altar in the courtyard individuals offered up the individual offerings that could be a lamb, doves, or grain. 

Why two altars? Because Christ atones for mankind on two levels. The first and most import is His atonement for mankind corporately. Which is why the (AOI) is within the Holy Place, and is overladen with gold, being more precious than bronze. The Continual, or Daily, aloud the nation of Israel to live in the presence of a Holy God, and not be consumed because of their sinful nature. This period of grace allowed individuals time for the Holy Spirit to convict them of their personal sins and offer up their proper offering at the brazen altar in the courtyard. 

Christ has been interceding for mankind since the fall of Adam. Gen 2:17, informs us that Adam and Eve should have died the very day they sinned.  They didn't because Jesus stepped in and agreed to to be the Fathers sacrificial lamb, and the plan of salvation was set in motion that very day. While Christ is intercedes the Fathers wrath is stayed from destroy this sinful world, giving individuals time to come to Christ and excepting His salvation. 

However, the Father has predetermined a point in time when probation must end, and His eternal Kingdom set up. When we reach that point in time then the service at the golden altar of incense in Rev. 8: 2-5 will take place in heaven, ending corporate probation, and God's wrath will begin by means of the trumpet judgments. However, probation remains open during the seven trumpet judgments for individuals, as the three angles messages are heard around the world. 

Pray this will begin to make sense.

 

 

[hobie]

On 3/27/2026 at 5:46 AM, Joe Knapp said:

Okay, this is all what the church has been teaching for over a hundred years. 

But the point I bring up, is that we are at the end of the investigative judgment, where the living are now being judged. 

I would have to lean towards that, and going about and am telling everyone we are near...

[hobie]

On 4/15/2026 at 3:16 PM, Challenger said:

Hanseng. Just finished reading your above post. Empressive. Have read many other post of yours on different threads. You obviously know much about tPhe origin of our teachings. I would like to know how it is you have come into such knowledge?  Are you a church historian?

Funny you should say that, my background is history but I went into technology and thus, here I am.

[hobie]

More on the Investigative Judgment. We have seen the saints will be judged first, before the Second Coming as 1 Peter 4:17 tells us, and then after the wicked. Here is SOP on this which is clear, “So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period.” (The Great Controversy, 480) 

If you look, you will find when the wicked come before Christ, its at the Great white throne Judgement and guess who will come in as the jury? 
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

We are the jury, so we do judge guilty or innocent so to speak. 
1 Corinthians 6:2-3
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Before Christ’s second coming, God examines the lives of those who lay claim to be His people, “the house of God” or saints to determine who will be resurrected at the Second Coming and who will not, and thus the sheep are seperated from the goats. Satan is the accuser, but Jesus is the advocate and judge for the saints. But now comes the wicked’s tutn to face Christ before the judgement seat, and we find it in Revelation 20:11-15. 

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 

[Hanseng]

As I understand it, the transfer of sin from the sinner to the sanctuary is what necessitates the cleansing of the sanctuary. Some might say it is the transfer of guilt that defiles the sanctuary.  Whether it is guilt or sin or both, the only time  the transfer of sin is clearly dscribed is on the Day of Atonement, described in Leviticus 16.

21  “Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send [it] away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.
22  “The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

There are other times when the priests lay their hands upon the sacrifice. None of them mention the transfer of sin. As far as I know, Leviticus 16:21,22  the only passage that explicitly refers to the transfer of sin from one to another. It takes place through confession, not the shedding of blood.

Numerous times the priests put their hands upon a sacrifice before killing it. Should we understand that  sin is being transferred to the sacrifice in every instance?

Ex 29:10  “You shall also have the bull brought before the tabernacle of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the bull.
Ex 29:15  “You shall also take one ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram;
Ex 29:19  “You shall also take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram.
Le 4:15  ‘And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD. Then the bull shall be killed before the LORD.
Le 8:14 ¶  And he brought the bull for the sin offering. Then Aaron and his sons laid their hands on the head of the bull for the sin offering,
Le 8:18  Then he brought the ram as the burnt offering. And Aaron and his sons laid their hands on the head of the ram,
Le 8:22  And he brought the second ram, the ram of consecration. Then Aaron and his sons laid their hands on the head of the ram,

[hobie]

On 6/12/2026 at 8:45 AM, Hanseng said:

As I understand it, the transfer of sin from the sinner to the sanctuary is what necessitates the cleansing of the sanctuary. Some might say it is the transfer of guilt that defiles the sanctuary.  Whether it is guilt or sin or both, the only time  the transfer of sin is clearly dscribed is on the Day of Atonement, described in Leviticus 16.

21  “Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send [it] away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.
22  “The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

There are other times when the priests lay their hands upon the sacrifice. None of them mention the transfer of sin. As far as I know, Leviticus 16:21,22  the only passage that explicitly refers to the transfer of sin from one to another. It takes place through confession, not the shedding of blood.

Numerous times the priests put their hands upon a sacrifice before killing it. Should we understand that  sin is being transferred to the sacrifice in every instance?

Ex 29:10  “You shall also have the bull brought before the tabernacle of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the bull.
Ex 29:15  “You shall also take one ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram;
Ex 29:19  “You shall also take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram.
Le 4:15  ‘And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD. Then the bull shall be killed before the LORD.
Le 8:14 ¶  And he brought the bull for the sin offering. Then Aaron and his sons laid their hands on the head of the bull for the sin offering,
Le 8:18  Then he brought the ram as the burnt offering. And Aaron and his sons laid their hands on the head of the ram,
Le 8:22  And he brought the second ram, the ram of consecration. Then Aaron and his sons laid their hands on the head of the ram,

If the sin was not transferred from the sinner, he would remain with it and have to pay the wages for it.

[Hanseng]

Roy Gane published an article in the JATS on OT ordination practices. The article discusses the placing of hand  upon sacrificial animals and individuals.

Prior to the death of Moses,  God had charged Moses with placing some of his honor upon Joshua. He did so by placing his hands upon him.

18  And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom [is] the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;
19  And set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him a charge in their sight.
20  And thou shalt put [some] of thine honour upon him, that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient.
21  And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask [counsel] for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, [both] he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.
22  And Moses did as the LORD commanded him: and he took Joshua, and set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation:18  And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom [is] the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;
https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/jats/vol33/iss1/10

[Hanseng]

6 minutes ago, hobie said:

If the sin was not transferred from the sinner, he would remain with it and have to pay the wages for it.

So you agree that sin was transferred by confession and the laying of hands upon the sacrifice?

[hobie]

On 3/27/2026 at 5:46 AM, Asia Joe said:

Okay, this is all what the church has been teaching for over a hundred years. 

But the point I bring up, is that we are at the end of the investigative judgment, where the living are now being judged. 

The Bible tells us...

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Once you are sealed, the adversary cannot temp or lead you into sin. see what it says in Revelation 7.

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

[hobie]

On 6/13/2026 at 9:12 AM, Hanseng said:

So you agree that sin was transferred by confession and the laying of hands upon the sacrifice?

But then the lamb had to be sacrificed, the shedding of blood to pay for wages the sin.

 

Matthew 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Hanseng]

12 minutes ago, hobie said:

But then the lamb had to be sacrificed, the shedding of blood to pay for wages the sin.

 

Yes. The sin was transferred through the laying on of hands and confession, not by the blood. The blood cleansed/ atoned for sin. It did not transfer it. Almost all things are cleansed by blood.

That's one way of looking at it.

[Hanseng]

"The ministration of the earthly sanctuary consisted of two divisions;
the priests ministered daily in the holy place, while once a
year the high priest performed a special work of atonement in the
most holy, for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Day by day the repentant
sinner brought his offering to the door of the tabernacle and,
placing his hand upon the victim’s head, confessed his sins, thus
in figure transferring them from himself to the innocent sacrifice.
The animal was then slain. “Without shedding of blood,” says the
apostle, there is no remission of sin. “The life of the flesh is in
the blood.” Leviticus 17:11. The broken law of God demanded the
life of the transgressor. The blood, representing the forfeited life
of the sinner, whose guilt the victim bore, was carried by the priest
into the holy place and sprinkled before the veil, behind which was
the ark containing the law that the sinner had transgressed. By this
ceremony the sin was, through the blood, transferred in figure to the
sanctuary. In some cases the blood was not taken into the holy place;
but the flesh was then to be eaten by the priest, as Moses directed
the sons of Aaron, saying: “God hath given it you to bear the iniquity
of the congregation.” Leviticus 10:17. Both ceremonies alike
symbolized the transfer of the sin from the penitent to the sanctuary" (GC 356, 357).

The following sentence is the one which some  people question or outright disagree:  "By this
ceremony the sin was, through the blood, transferred in figure to the sanctuary."

 

 

 

 

 

[Asia Joe]

On 7/20/2026 at 7:14 PM, hobie said:

The Bible tells us...

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Once you are sealed, the adversary cannot temp or lead you into sin. see what it says in Revelation 7.

Well, I must not be sealed then.  Because I am still temped. And I still sin. 

[Hanseng]

On 7/21/2026 at 6:04 PM, Hanseng said:

God hath given it you to bear the iniquity
of the congregation.” Leviticus

The high priest bore sin or carried it away:  "And it shall be upon Aaron’s forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD." KJV, Lev. 28:38

"It shall be on Aaron’s forehead, and Aaron shall take on himself any guilt incurred in the holy offering that the Israelites consecrate as their sacred donations; it shall always be on his forehead, in order that they may find favor before the LORD." NRSV, Lev 28:38

This is apparently a reference to the DoA service.  The context refers to the  "holy place," not the "holy of holies." Sometimes, the "holy place" refers to what we usually call the "most holy place."  In this passage, the expression, "tabernacle of the congregation" refers to the first apartment. So instead of the "holy" and "most holy place," we have the "holy place" and the "tabernacle of the congregation." Same is said in Leviticus 16:16, 17, 20, 23. The "holy place" and the "tabernacle of the congregation" are mentioned. 

Leviticus 16:2 describes the "most holy place" as "the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat." Verse 3 says simply "the holy place."

[Hanseng]

On 7/22/2026 at 2:09 AM, Asia Joe said:

Once you are sealed, the adversary cannot temp or lead you into sin. see what it says in Revelation 7.

Totally erroneous statement.

[Hanseng]

The expression "within the veil" is used in the following OT passages:

Ex 26:33  And thou shalt put the veil on the posts, and thou shalt carry in thither *within the veil* the ark of the testimony; and the veil shall make a separation for you between the holy and the holy of holies.
Le 16:2  And the Lord said to Moses, Speak to Aaron thy brother, and let him not come in at all times into the holy place *within the veil* before the propitiatory, which is upon the ark of the testimony, and he shall not die; for I will appear in a cloud on the propitiatory.
Le 16:12  And he shall take his censer full of coals of fire off the altar, which is before the Lord; and he shall fill his hands with fine compound incense, and shall bring it *within the veil.*
Le 16:15 ¶  and he shall kill the goat for the sin-offering that is for the people, before the Lord; and he shall bring in of its blood *within the veil,* and shall do with its blood as he did with the blood of the calf, and shall sprinkle its blood on the mercy-seat, in front of the mercy-seat.

It is also used here: Heb 6:19  Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that *within the veil;*

The following verse says:  

20  Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 6:19,20 plainly state that Jesus entered into the Most Holy Place when he ascended. That is where *within the veil* is located.

       

[Hanseng]

Further testimony that Jesus went into the MHP at his ascension is found in Hebrews 9. Chapter 9 refers to the "tabernacle": 2  For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

The first tabernacle was called the sanctuary. That's the HP

"3  And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; "

Chapter 9 describes the first tabernacle as the sanctuary. After the second veil, there was the holiest of all [MHP] There is no HP and MHP here. There is the first tabernacle, also known as the sanctuary and the holiest of all.

Verses 6 and 7 say that the priests went into the first tabernacle [HP]to accomplish the service of God. Into the "second" [MHP] went the high priest once a year.

Verse 7 says the high priest entered the "second"[MHP] once every year. Verse 12 says Jesus entered once. Not once very year. Just once. Verses 25, 26 reiterate this point:

25  Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

       

[Hanseng]

Suppose Jesus went directly into the MHP upon his ascension. That is what Hebrews chapters 6 and 9 say. It doesn't mean that 1844 was a hoax, a delusion, a falsehood. It doesn't mean nothing happened in 1844. What it does mean is that Jesus wasn't in the first apartment until 1844. It does not invalidate the 2300 day prophecy. It does not mean Ellen White was not the Lord's messenger. It does mean what she said, "I am not a prophet. She could have been wrong. The IJ doctrine wasn't original with her. The IJ doctrine had been circulating in the denomination for decades before she wrote about it in the Great Controversy book. Suppose that the cleansing of the sanctuary in Daniel 8:14 is talking about a last day church preaching the final message to the people of the earth.  The word, there translated as "cleansed," really means "justified." It is used in Daniel 12:3. Young's Literal Translation says  "Those justifying the multitude...." The word normally  refers to the justification of people.  The temple was cleansed multiple times in the OT. Never was the word translated in Daniel 8:14 as "cleansed" used.