Unprepared For Christ's Return?

[D. Allan]

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Oh boy....Whatever!

I can just imagine the look on your face! :-o

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[D. Allan]

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I personally would accept you any time, even though I don't share any of the views you described above. But I am very happy that you're a member of CA and I would be glad also if you chose sometimes to worship side by side with Seventh-day Adventist Christians.

Thank you, 'John'. Up until Christmas I had been attending with my wife. She's more traditional. So much illness since Christmas.

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In any case, I'm the kind of person who can talk to people of any belief whatever and enjoy my time spent with them. I enjoy listening and learning what other people think far more than talking about my own beliefs, actually.

You should enjoy the study of Comparative Religion. Huston Smith & Joseph Campbell.

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However, when it comes to being a member of the SDA church, my question would be why would you want to become a member when your beliefs are so different from theirs? (Perhaps you don't want to be a member; I am only asking the question for the sake of making a point.)

I was a member until 2003 when I joined a congregational church associated with the United Church of Christ and the Christian Church (formerly Disciples of Christ).

It is a wonderful congregation. They have many seminars going on for their members and anyone. Programs for spiritual development. Guest speakers such as Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, Bishop Spong - to name a few . They have concert series' with string quartets. A wonderful Choir. Sometimes the Local Symphony plays during worship. They have a special pastor for spiritual development. They are very organized. I loved it. Then we moved a 1000 miles away.

check it out here: www.FCchurch.com to see a nice picture of the growing church north campus. (They get about 40 new members every 6 - 8 weeks.) I see they are having a Church Music Seminar.

Or go here to read columns from the newsletters by the pastors: http://www.fcchurch.com/templates/cusfcc/details.asp?id=27263&PG=xcast&RecordType=77 The SOUNDINGS column is by the Senior Pastor, Richard Wing. The TRANSFORMING COMMUNITY column is by David Hett, Minister of Religious Life and Learning.

I'm still a member there. If i'm lucky I'll get back there maybe once a year.

~d.allan

[John317]

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But I don't understand why God loves someone BECAUSE of his/her beliefs. Is God's love contingent on sincere beliefs? (not talking about being *saved* here.....just being loved by God).

What I meant is that God loves and accepts us just as we are. Our beliefs being part of us, I guess. Although I'm sure some philosophers might be say we are separate from them. ?~d.allan

It's true that God loves all of humanity and accepts people right where we are. He wouldn't have sent Jesus, His Son, into the world, if He didn't love us to an extent that we can't even fathom.

The point people get confused about, though, is that God loves us so much that He wants to save us from something deadly and destructive called sin. In other words, God loves us enough that He doesn't want to leave us where He finds us. It's easy for us to think that God is like we are and that God doesn't mind sin. However, the Bible says God is too holy to even look upon sin. He hates sin. He hates sin because of what it does to people and because of what it does to His universe. Sin is everything that is in opposition to, and out of harmony with, God's character.

If people continue to hold onto their sins, and refuse to give them up, God eventually has no choice but to allow them to keep their sins. He won't force them to give up their sins. But at the same time He won't let sin exist forever in His universe. He's determined to destroy all sin and have a universe once more like it was before sin first began. So if people insist on holding on to their sins, God will have destroy those people along with their sins.

That's what happened to most of the people whom God saved out of Egypt. He saved them from slavery and sin, but they refused to go on to the land He had promised them, and instead almost all of them wanted to return to Egypt. So the Bible says this about them, "Who were they that heard [God's voice] and yet were rebellious? Was it not all those who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses? And with whom was he [God] provoked forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they should never enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter [God's rest-- the promised land] because of unbelief. Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it" (Hebrews 3: 16- 4:1).

God is calling us also to leave Egypt and slavery to sin, but if we persist in holding onto our sins, He will allow us to keep them, yet in that case we will eventually be destroyed along with sin.

"For God so loved the world [you and me] that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him" (John 3:16, 17).

Every day the choice is ours. God's appeal is, choose life.

[John317]

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In any case, I'm the kind of person who can talk to people of any belief whatever and enjoy my time spent with them. I enjoy listening and learning what other people think far more than talking about my own beliefs, actually.

Yes, I know of them. I read Huston Smith's book on comparative religion for a college humanities class and I know of Joseph Cambell's work very well. I studied comparative religion at a public university (CSUSB) and also studied theology at Loma Linda University. In my view, Cambell's work is flawed because it is based on the assumption that the source of the Bible is the same as the source of all the other religions of the world.

[John317]

I was a member until 2003 when I joined a congregational church associated with the United Church of Christ and the Christian Church (formerly Disciples of Christ).

It is a wonderful congregation. They have many seminars going on for their members and anyone. Programs for spiritual development. Guest speakers such as Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, Bishop Spong - to name a few . They have concert series' with string quartets. A wonderful Choir. Sometimes the Local Symphony plays during worship. They have a special pastor for spiritual development. They are very organized. I loved it. Then we moved a 1000 miles away.

check it out here: www.FCchurch.com to see a nice picture of the growing church north campus. (They get about 40 new members every 6 - 8 weeks.) I see they are having a Church Music Seminar.

Or go here to read columns from the newsletters by the pastors: http://www.fcchurch.com/templates/cusfcc/details.asp?id=27263&PG=xcast&RecordType=77 The SOUNDINGS column is by the Senior Pastor, Richard Wing. The TRANSFORMING COMMUNITY column is by David Hett, Minister of Religious Life and Learning.

I'm still a member there. If i'm lucky I'll get back there maybe once a year. ~d.allan

Thanks for those links. I did check them out. It looks like they have many services there to try to meet the needs of the community and their congregation.

I'm glad you've also decided to come to CA and hope you keep Seventh-day Adventist beliefs in mind and come back to visit often.

Do you know what they teach on the subject of this thread? I am sure they don't talk much about it, but if you had to guess, what do you think the pastors of that church would say is Babylon and what will happen when Christ returns to those who are not prepared?

[D. Allan]

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Do you know what they teach on the subject of this thread? I am sure they don't talk much about it, but if you had to guess, what do you think the pastors of that church would say is Babylon and what will happen when Christ returns to those who are not prepared?

John, they don't 'teach' about Babylon. They don't believe in a punishing vengeful god, but in a forgiving God. All that is required for membership is a belief in the ministry of Jesus. If Pastor Wing spoke on Babylon I suppose he used it as a symbol. The captivity of the Jewish people in Babylon symbolising our 'captivity' by the cares of this life, etc. And he might also mention the actual captivity of the slaves earlier in this country and how their grandchildren are still struggling to be completely free and thus showing us all that we should never give up the struggle.

The 'return' of Christ is not thought of as being literal. Christ 'returns' when a person lets Him rule in their hearts, I would say. We are all called to be 'little christs.'

However, I must say that that is the way I understand things in the light of my best efforts at the truth; and that whatever God has in plan is not determined by my poor understanding. I'm ready for anything He has coming up, as long as He is with me.

~d.allan

[jasd]

>>Why don't you say in plain language how you relate this to what you find on this thread?<<

There is appeal to the numinous breath of a thing. As far as “relating”

to the contents of this thread – I’ll do so shortly, when I have a bit more time available.

(I’m sorry to say that ‘rushing’ with my submitted posts has not permitted me to post in the manner I’d prefer)

Per Babylon: The entire concept, as forwarded, these threads, is clouded with the same sort of manifested ‘rush’ that is tandem my recent posts. If nothing else, they (my posts) need more editing for typographical errors.

Perhaps, you might list the conclusive proofs that the Catholic .org is indeed, Babylon.

[jasd]

>>Perhaps, you might list the conclusive proofs that the Catholic .org is indeed, Babylon.<<

Ummm? ...am interested.

Perhaps, you might list them on the "Bible and Theology" board.

[John317]

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Do you know what they teach on the subject of this thread? I am sure they don't talk much about it, but if you had to guess, what do you think the pastors of that church would say is Babylon and what will happen when Christ returns to those who are not prepared?

I understand what you mean here, but if we accept the whole Bible, then we have to study and understand what chapters 16 to 19 of Revelation have reference to. The question this thread is designed to answer is, what the Seventh-day Adventist church believes regarding the identity of Babylon and what will happen to those who remain in Babylon when Jesus returns. The God of Revelation is certainly a loving and forgiving God but He is also a just and righteous God, who is determined one day to cleanse the whole universe of all sin.

Babylon is a symbol for sure, but it is a symbol of something within history. It is among "the things which must shortly take place," which John mentioned in Revelation 1:1. It is also among the things which are to be "heeded", or paid close attention to, in the prophecy, according to verse 2. The Seventh-day Adventist church believes that the books of Daniel and Revelation are crucial for us to understand. It beleives that we can understand what the symbols, such as Babylon, signify if we allow the Bible to interpret itself.

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The 'return' of Christ is not thought of as being literal. Christ 'returns' when a person lets Him rule in their hearts, I would say. We are all called to be 'little christs.'

However, I must say that that is the way I understand things in the light of my best efforts at the truth; and that whatever God has in plan is not determined by my poor understanding. I'm ready for anything He has coming up, as long as He is with me.~d.allan

OK I understand what you say about Christ's return. But is that what the Bible teaches? That is the main issue. In other words, can 2 Thess. 2:1-8 and John 14:1-3 be understood to mean Christ's coming to individual Christians when they let Him rule in their hearts?

[John317]

>>Perhaps, you might list the conclusive proofs that the Catholic .org is indeed, Babylon.

Ummm? ...am interested.

Perhaps, you might list them on the "Bible and Theology" board.

I will list them here because it has to do directly with answering the question that this thread is intended to answer. We should remember, however, that the question is what the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches. Only secondarily does it have to do with whether the Bible supports SDA teaching on this issue. Both answers will be given on this thread, but first I'll give documentary evidence that the SDA church teaches that Babylon includes the Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy. It will be seen that the SDA church also teaches that all those who remain in Babylon and refuse to separate themselves from it will be destroyed when Christ returns.

I'll give the evidence on several posts. First, pp. 381-384 of the book, The Great Controversy, by Ellen White:

In Revelation 14 the first angel is followed by a second proclaiming: "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." Revelation 14:8. The term "Babylon" is derived from "Babel," and signifies confusion. It is employed in Scripture to designate the various forms of false or apostate religion. In Revelation 17 Babylon is represented as a woman --a figure which is used in the Bible as the symbol of a church, a virtuous woman representing a pure church, a vile woman an apostate church.

In the Bible the sacred and enduring character of the relation that exists between Christ and His church is represented by the union of marriage. The Lord has joined His people to Himself by a solemn covenant, He promising to be their God, and they pledging themselves to be His and His alone. He declares: "I will betroth thee unto Me forever; yea, I will betroth thee unto Me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving-kindness, and in mercies." Hosea 2:19. And, again: "I am married unto you." Jeremiah 3:14. And Paul employs the same figure in the New Testament when he says: "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:2.

The unfaithfulness of the church to Christ in permitting her confidence and affection to be turned from Him, and allowing the love of worldly things to occupy the soul, is likened to the violation of the marriage vow. The sin of Israel in departing from the Lord is presented under this figure; and the wonderful love of God which they thus despised is touchingly portrayed: "I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest Mine." "And thou wast exceeding beautiful and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through My comeliness, which I had put upon thee. . . . But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown." "As a wife treacherously departeth from her

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husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel, saith the Lord;" "as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!" Ezekiel 16:8, 13-15, 32; Jeremiah 3:20.

In the New Testament, language very similar is addressed to professed Christians who seek the friendship of the world above the favor of God. Says the apostle James: "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

The woman (Babylon) of Revelation 17 is described as "arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness:...and upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots." Says the prophet: "I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." Babylon is further declared to be "that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." Revelation 17:4-6, 18. The power that for so many centuries maintained despotic sway over the monarchs of Christendom is Rome. The purple and scarlet color, the gold and precious stones and pearls, vividly picture the magnificence and more than kingly pomp affected by the haughty see of Rome. And no other power could be so truly declared "drunken with the blood of the saints" as that church which has so cruelly persecuted the followers of Christ. Babylon is also charged with the sin of unlawful connection with "the kings of the earth." It was by departure from the Lord, and alliance with the heathen, that the Jewish church became a harlot; and Rome, corrupting herself in like manner by seeking the support of worldly powers, receives a like condemnation.

Babylon is said to be "the mother of harlots." By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing

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the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of Babylon must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. At the time of their rise these churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and His blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. In the words of the prophet to Israel: "Thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through My comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God." But they fell by the same desire which was the curse and ruin of Israel--the desire of imitating the practices and courting the friendship of the ungodly. "Thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown." Ezekiel 16:14, 15.

Many of the Protestant churches are following Rome's example of iniquitous connection with "the kings of the earth"--the state churches, by their relation to secular governments; and other denominations, by seeking the favor of the world. And the term "Babylon"--confusion--may be appropriately applied to these bodies, all professing to derive their doctrines from the Bible, yet divided into almost innumerable sects, with widely conflicting creeds and theories.

Besides a sinful union with the world, the churches that separated from Rome present other of her characteristics.

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A Roman Catholic work argues that "if the Church of Rome were ever guilty of idolatry in relation to the saints, her daughter, the Church of England, stands guilty of the same, which has ten churches dedicated to Mary for one dedicated to Christ."--Richard Challoner, The Catholic Christian Instructed, Preface, pages 21, 22.

And Dr. Hopkins, in "A Treatise on the Millennium," declares: "There is no reason to consider the antichristian spirit and practices to be confined to that which is now called the Church of Rome. The Protestant churches have much of antichrist in them, and are far from being wholly reformed from . . . corruptions and wickedness."--Samuel Hopkins, Works, vol. 2, p. 328.

Concerning the separation of the Presbyterian Church from Rome, Dr. Guthrie writes: "Three hundred years ago, our church, with an open Bible on her banner, and this motto, 'Search the Scriptures,' on her scroll, marched out from the gates of Rome." Then he asks the significant question: "Did they come clean out of Babylon?"--Thomas Guthrie, The Gospel in Ezekiel, page 237.

[John317]

Great Controversy, pp. 604-608:

This scripture (Rev. 18:1,2,4) points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel of Revelation 14 (verse 8), is to be repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that message was first given, in the summer of 1844. A terrible condition of the religious world is here described. With every rejection of truth the minds of the people will become darker, their hearts more stubborn, until they are entrenched in an infidel hardihood. In defiance of the warnings which God has given, they will continue to trample upon one of the precepts of the Decalogue, until they are led to persecute those who hold it sacred. Christ is set at nought in the contempt placed upon His word and His people. As the teachings of spiritualism are accepted by the churches, the

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restraint imposed upon the carnal heart is removed, and the profession of religion will become a cloak to conceal the basest iniquity. A belief in spiritual manifestations opens the door to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and thus the influence of evil angels will be felt in the churches.

Of Babylon, at the time brought to view in this prophecy, it is declared: "Her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." Revelation 18:5. She has filled up the measure of her guilt, and destruction is about to fall upon her. But God still has a people in Babylon; and before the visitation of His judgments these faithful ones must be called out, that they partake not of her sins and "receive not of her plagues." Hence the movement symbolized by the angel coming down from heaven, lightening the earth with his glory and crying mightily with a strong voice, announcing the sins of Babylon. In connection with his message the call is heard: "Come out of her, My people." These announcements, uniting with the third angel's message, constitute the final warning to be given to the inhabitants of the earth.

Fearful is the issue to which the world is to be brought. The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God, will decree that "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond" (Revelation 13:16), shall conform to the customs of the church by the observance of the false sabbath. All who refuse compliance will be visited with civil penalties, and it will finally be declared that they are deserving of death. On the other hand, the law of God enjoining the Creator's rest day demands obedience and threatens wrath against all who transgress its precepts.

With the issue thus clearly brought before him, whoever shall trample upon God's law to obey a human enactment receives the mark of the beast; he accepts the sign of allegiance to the power which he chooses to obey instead of God. The warning from heaven is: "If any man worship the beast

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and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation." Revelation 14:9, 10.

But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. There are many who have never had an opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. The obligation of the fourth commandment has never been set before them in its true light. He who reads every heart and tries every motive will leave none who desire a knowledge of the truth, to be deceived as to the issues of the controversy. The decree is not to be urged upon the people blindly. Everyone is to have sufficient light to make his decision intelligently.

The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God.

Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third angel's message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. Their predictions that religious intolerance would gain control in the United States, that church and state would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God, have been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been--the defender of religious freedom. But

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as the question of enforcing Sunday observance is widely agitated, the event so long doubted and disbelieved is seen to be approaching, and the third message will produce an effect which it could not have had before.

In every generation God has sent His servants to rebuke sin, both in the world and in the church. But the people desire smooth things spoken to them, and the pure, unvarnished truth is not acceptable. Many reformers, in entering upon their work, determined to exercise great prudence in attacking the sins of the church and the nation. They hoped, by the example of a pure Christian life, to lead the people back to the doctrines of the Bible. But the Spirit of God came upon them as it came upon Elijah, moving him to rebuke the sins of a wicked king and an apostate people; they could not refrain from preaching the plain utterances of the Bible-- doctrines which they had been reluctant to present. They were impelled to zealously declare the truth and the danger which threatened souls. The words which the Lord gave them they uttered, fearless of consequences, and the people were compelled to hear the warning.

Thus the message of the third angel will be proclaimed. As the time comes for it to be given with greatest power, the Lord will work through humble instruments, leading the minds of those who consecrate themselves to His service. The laborers will be qualified rather by the unction of His Spirit than by the training of literary institutions. Men of faith and prayer will be constrained to go forth with holy zeal, declaring the words which God gives them. The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power--all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred. Thousands upon thousands will listen who have never heard words like these. In amazement they

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hear the testimony that Babylon is the church, fallen because of her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from heaven. As the people go to their former teachers with the eager inquiry, Are these things so? the ministers present fables, prophesy smooth things, to soothe their fears and quiet the awakened conscience. But since many refuse to be satisfied with the mere authority of men and demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord," the popular ministry, like the Pharisees of old, filled with anger as their authority is questioned, will denounce the message as of Satan and stir up the sin-loving multitudes to revile and persecute those who proclaim it.

As the controversy extends into new fields and the minds of the people are called to God's downtrodden law, Satan is astir. The power attending the message will only madden those who oppose it. The clergy will put forth almost superhuman efforts to shut away the light lest it should shine upon their flocks. By every means at their command they will endeavor to suppress the discussion of these vital questions. The church appeals to the strong arm of civil power, and, in this work, papists and Protestants unite. As the movement for Sunday enforcement becomes more bold and decided, the law will be invoked against commandment keepers. They will be threatened with fines and imprisonment, and some will be offered positions of influence, and other rewards and advantages, as inducements to renounce their faith. But their steadfast answer is: "Show us from the word of God our error"--the same plea that was made by Luther under similar circumstances. Those who are arraigned before the courts make a strong vindication of the truth, and some who hear them are led to take their stand to keep all the commandments of God. Thus light will be brought before thousands who otherwise would know nothing of these truths.

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Conscientious obedience to the word of God will be treated as rebellion. Blinded by Satan, the parent will exercise harshness and severity toward the believing child; the master or mistress will oppress the commandment-keeping servant. Affection will be alienated; children will be disinherited and driven from home. The words of Paul will be literally fulfilled: "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." 2 Timothy 3:12. As the defenders of truth refuse to honor the Sunday-sabbath, some of them will be thrust into prison, some will be exiled, some will be treated as slaves. To human wisdom all this now seems impossible; but as the restraining Spirit of God shall be withdrawn from men, and they shall be under the control of Satan, who hates the divine precepts, there will be strange developments. The heart can be very cruel when God's fear and love are removed.

As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren. When Sabbathkeepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them.

[John317]

Great Controversy,pp 613-616:

"At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1.

When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and

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blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords.

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.

Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, and they will be regarded as the cause of the fearful convulsions of nature and the strife and bloodshed among men that are filling the earth with woe. The power attending the last warning has enraged the wicked; their anger is kindled against all who

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have received the message, and Satan will excite to still greater intensity the spirit of hatred and persecution.

When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. The ministration in the temple continued; sacrifices were offered upon its polluted altars, and daily the divine blessing was invoked upon a people guilty of the blood of God's dear Son and seeking to slay His ministers and apostles. So when the irrevocable decision of the sanctuary has been pronounced and the destiny of the world has been forever fixed, the inhabitants of the earth will know it not. The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn; and the satanic zeal with which the prince of evil will inspire them for the accomplishment of his malignant designs, will bear the semblance of zeal for God.

As the Sabbath has become the special point of controversy throughout Christendom, and religious and secular authorities have combined to enforce the observance of the Sunday, the persistent refusal of a small minority to yield to the popular demand will make them objects of universal execration. It will be urged that the few who stand in opposition to an institution of the church and a law of the state ought not to be tolerated; that it is better for them to suffer than for whole nations to be thrown into confusion and lawlessness. The same argument eighteen hundred years ago was brought against Christ by the "rulers of the people." "It is expedient for us," said the wily Caiaphas, "that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not." John 11:50. This argument will appear conclusive; and a decree will finally be issued against those who hallow the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, denouncing them as deserving of the severest punishment and giving

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the people liberty, after a certain time, to put them to death. Romanism in the Old World and apostate Protestantism in the New will pursue a similar course toward those who honor all the divine precepts.

[Woody]

I am not about to go and read all you have posted here. So I have no idea what you are trying to say. But I will point out that just because Ellen White may or may not say something does not mean that the SDA church believes it.

Ellen White herself said to only believe what the Bible says and to throw away her beliefs if they do not match what the Bible says.

Many times the Church would disagree with what Ellen White said. So ... If you are trying to prove that the Church believes something it can only be from a vote at a General Conference. That is the church speaking. Anything else is just an opinion of a person or group of individuals. And Ellen White was just one member of the church.

[John317]

>>Perhaps, you might list the conclusive proofs that the Catholic .org is indeed, Babylon.

Ummm? ...am interested.

Perhaps, you might list them on the "Bible and Theology" board.

The second part of my answer as to what SDA's teach regarding Babylon and what will happen to those who refuse to separate from Babylon before Christ's returns, consists of quotes from a number of well-known Seventh-day Adventist publications.

Please see pp. 194-196 of Seventh-day Adventists Believe, Second Edition, 2005. Or pp. 164-168 of the First Edition, 1988.

"In Revelation, Babylon refers to the wicked woman, the mother of harlots, and her impure daughters (Rev. 17:5). It symbolizes all apostate religious organizations and their leadership, though it refers especially to the great apostate religious alliance between the beast [Roman Catholicism, or the Papacy] and his image [the uniting of apostate Protestantism with the state to enforce their teachings] that will bring about the final crisis described in Rev. 13:15-17."

Who is the beast?-- Answer: The apostate church that persecuted for 1260 years. (see p. 196)

[John317]

I am not about to go and read all you have posted here. So I have no idea what you are trying to say. But I will point out that just because Ellen White may or may not say something does not mean that the SDA church believes it.

Ellen White herself said to only believe what the Bible says and to throw away her beliefs if they do not match what the Bible says.

Many times the Church would disagree with what Ellen White said. So ... If you are trying to prove that the Church believes something it can only be from a vote at a General Conference. That is the church speaking. Anything else is just an opinion of a person or group of individuals. And Ellen White was just one member of the church.

If you will read here, you will find out that I am showing what the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches. It is what it has taught ever since it was organized and it teaches it in all of its publications on the subject, as I will show. In fact, I have never found any publication by the SDA church or by an SDA scholar or writer that says anything different from what I am posting here. If anyone can find a book published by the Seventh-day Adventist church that says anything contrary to what the books Great Controversy or Seventh-day Adventists Believe say, please put it into evidence here.

Here is a statement that was voted on by the General Conference: "Her [Ellen White's] writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction."

Your attempt to make it appear that Ellen White was simply "one member of the church," or that her writings do not represent the views of the SDA church, is simply a denial of the facts of history and of SDA theology.

[John317]

Many times the Church would disagree with what Ellen White said...

Please give evidence that the SDA church disagrees with Ellen White. By your own definition, you are saying that the General Conference has rejected what Ellen White has said: "If you are trying to prove that the Church believes something it can only be from a vote at a General Conference. That is the church speaking."

According to the Bible, when the church rejects the Spirit of Prophecy, it is in reality rejecting Jesus Christ since Jesus is the One who speaks to the church through his prophets. If the church rejects what Paul or Peter or John or the other Bible writers wrote, who is it actually rejecting?

[John317]

I am not about to go and read all you have posted here. So I have no idea what you are trying to say...

You really don't have to read all of it-- just read the bold print or what's in red. It's all good, taken from that wonderful book, The Great Controversy. It was Ellen White's favorite and the one she herself believed was her most important work. It is published by the SDA church and has the total support of the world-wide Adventist church, being distributed in virtually every nation.

Quote:

Ellen White herself said to only believe what the Bible says and to throw away her beliefs if they do not match what the Bible says.

Yes, she said that her work either was of God or of the Devil. She said that if they contradict the Bible she was a false prophet. In Old Testament times, what was done with false prophets? What then should be done with Ellen White or her writings if she was a false prophet?

The second portion of this thread will be devoted to showing whether the SDA view of Babylon is in agreement with, and is supported by, the Bible.

[John317]

Quote:

Redwood said: If you are trying to prove that the Church believes something it can only be from a vote at a General Conference. That is the church speaking. Anything else is just an opinion of a person or group of individuals...

Since, according to you, Ellen White's Great Controversy and the book Seventh-day Adventists Believe are all wrong, who or what do you believe constitutes Babylon as described in Rev. 16-19?

[John317]

[John317]

Let it be kept in mind throughout this discussion that SDAs are not teaching, and never have taught, that the SDAs alone are children of God or have a claim upon heaven. They believe that all who worship God in full sincerity, that is, in terms of all the revealed will of God that they understand, are presently potential members of that final "remnant" company mentioned in Revelation 12:17.

4) Desmond Ford's commentary on Daniel, 1978, Southern Publishing Association, pp. 149-195, proves that the "little horn power" is the papacy and that Babylon includes the Roman Catholic Church.

5) God Cares, the Message of Revelation. C. Mervyn Maxwell. Pacific Press Publishing Association, 1985.

The great harlot, the little horn power, and Babylon refer to the Roman Catholic church. pp. 413- 415, 440-443, 464-467, 471-475.

6) Daniel the Seer of Babylon, Gerhard Pfandl, Review and Herald Publishing Association, 2004.

"Seventh-day Adventists identify the little horn of Daniel 8 as pagan and papal Rome." Papal Rome is virtually identical with the Roman Catholic Church and its doctrines. (See pp. 76-83, 86, 87, 107.)

7) Uriah Smith's, The Prophecies of Daniel and Revelation: "Babylon is not confined to the Roman Catholic Church. That this church is a very prominent component part of great Babylon, is not denied" (p. 644) "...The great body of the Protestant churches [are also] an important constituent part of this great Babylon" (p. 647).

8) Secrets of Revelation- the Apocalypse Through Hebrew Eyes, Jacques B. Doukhan, Review and Herald Publishing Association, 2002.

"The prophet [John] portrays the fall of Babylon and of its disciples then as the shameful death of the scum of the earth-- an absolute and definitive death" (p. 129).

9) Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary. Review and Herald Publishing Association.

Who is Babylon?

On Rev. 13:2-- "The power succeeding the Roman Empire, which received from the dragon 'his power, and his seat and great authority' is clearly papal Rome."

On Rev. 14:4-- "The Church of Rome and various apostate churches who follow the Church of Rome are symbolized by an impure woman at Rev. 17:1-5.

[John317]

I repeat this as it is evidently too easily missed or forgotten: Let it be kept in mind throughout this discussion that SDAs are not teaching, and never have taught, that the SDAs alone are children of God or have a claim upon heaven. They believe that all who worship God in full sincerity, that is, in terms of all the revealed will of God that they understand, are presently potential members of that final "remnant" company mentioned in Revelation 12:17.

10) "In Rev. 17, Babylon is represented as a woman, a figure which is used in the Scriptures as a symbol of a church. A virtuous woman represents a pure church, a vile woman an apostate church. Babylon is said to be a harlot; and the prophet beheld her drunken with the blood of saints and martyrs. The Babylon thus described represents Rome, that apostate church which has so cruelly persecuted the followers of Christ. But Babylon the harlot is the mother of daughters who follow her example of corruption. Thus are represented those churches that cling to the doctrines and traditions of Rome and follow her worldly practices." See Great Controversy, pp. 380-385 of the 1888 edition or pp. 382, 383 of the 1911 edition.

11) See entire chapter, "What Constitutes 'Babylon'?"-- Question 21, pp. 197 to 202, Questions On Doctrine, Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1957, first edition.

"Adventists believe that the term 'Babylon,' referred to in Rev. 17, has been rightly applied to the Papacy...Great Babylon, however, according to verse 5, is mentioned as 'mother.' So the term 'Babylon' rightly belongs to others also."

[Woody]

Interesting that you would quote the 1957 version of QOD. Why not quote a more recent current "view" of what SDAs believe? Why go back to ancient history?

The book no longer reflect in any way the current view of SDAs. And the book you really love SDAs Believe ... is not an official statement of any kind. It was not voted on my any church authority. It is merely opinion. It was put together by Floyd Bresee who I know personally. I also know a number of its legalist contributors. I would not place much value or authority on this book. It is pure opinion.

If you insist on saying what SDAs believe ... don't quote "SDAs believe" but quote statements that have been currently approved by the Church in session. To do otherwise is very misleading and inaccurate.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

They believe that all who worship God in full sincerity, that is, in terms of all the revealed will of God that they understand, are presently potential members of that final "remnant" company mentioned in Revelation 12:17.

That includes a lot of people! Maybe even the pope? I'm all for it. Most people are sincere about their beliefs.

~d.allan

[John317]

Quote:

They believe that all who worship God in full sincerity, that is, in terms of all the revealed will of God that they understand, are presently potential members of that final "remnant" company mentioned in Revelation 12:17.

That includes a lot of people! Maybe even the pope? I'm all for it. Most people are sincere about their beliefs.~d.allan

Yes, of course. I would not be surprised if there are some popes who are in heaven. Many nuns, many priests. What Adventists teach on this subject is not an attack against individuals. Ellen White has written that most of God's people are in other churches, including the Catholic Church.

What needs to be understood throughout this whole discussion is that we're talking about what the Bible says about a system of belief, that is, about false doctrine; not about individual believers. Babylon, in prophecy, consists of "the world-loving churches of the last days" (PP 124), which teach a lot of false doctrines, such as the Mass, prayers to the dead, the Papacy, etc., but in those churches are many of God's sincere, honest people.

The Three Angels' Messages are designed by God to call those honest people out, and the honest at heart will respond when they hear the truth as it is in Jesus, and join the "remnant" company mentioned in Rev. 12:17 and 14:12. They will join with those who are keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, the spirit of prophecy.

There are many people in those false churches who are ignorant of God's word. For instance, the Catholic church's primary emphasis is on tradition, the catachism and prayers to the saints and to Mary. Most of them know very little of the Bible. The truth as it is in Jesus, of course, is found in the Scriptures, not in church traditions that run contrary to the Scriptures.

God judges us according to our knowledge and our opportunities to know truth. He certainly expects more from Seventh-day Adventists than from those who have not been exposed to all the light that SDAs have opportunity to know. The bottom line is that believers are expected to live up to all the light we have, that is, all the will of God that we understand.

[John317]

Interesting that you would quote the 1957 version of QOD. Why not quote a more recent current "view" of what SDAs believe? Why go back to ancient history?

I think anyone looking at the evidence so far can see what the Adventist church teaches on the subject we're discussing here. All of our books say the same thing in this regard, from the earliest material to the most recent. I've posted sources from 2006, as you can see. They all say the same thing. QOD is just one among about 11, but nothing has changed in our teaching on this subject since it was founded in 1861.

Quote:

The book no longer reflect in any way the current view of SDAs.

Can you name anything in which it does not reflect current Adventist doctrine? For instance, compare it with a book published by the church to express our most current beliefs, and show specifically where they differ in any significant way, especially with regard to the topic we're discussing on this thread.

You make lots of statements, Redwood, but I notice you rarely back any of them up with evidence or even logic. For instance, here you say the QOD book "no longer reflects in any way the current view of SDAs," yet you don't give even a single example of how it differs on the matter we are discussing on this post.

I invite you or anyone else to post one SDA source that gives a different view than the one I have already given among the 11 that I have offered on this thread.